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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    How big trunk do you need for golf day trip? It won't be worse than a weekend trip for two, a dog and with a large cooler, would it?

    Excuses... keep 'em coming. :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    "At least one car" makes for a fantastic argument. At least you didn't go out on a limb and compare it to Taurus... a whopping 9 cu ft advantage over Accord. For sake of fun...
    Mazda6: 111 cu ft
    Accord: 120 cu ft
    Taurus: 129 cu ft

    Accord is merely midpack, in terms of length, width and cubic footage. :D

    That said, buying based on cubic footage I do when it comes to appliances. I just returned from Home Depot looking for wine coolers as a matter of fact. :P

    Cars, OTOH, have to be a lot more than that.
  • Hey backy...

    My guess: his answer will be for the money-hungry dealers to make money.

    My personal view: partially to make money for dealers, partially to be able to say "we'll match Hyundai's warranty" and figure it into the price, partially because Honda's are in fact machines with parts that wear out, or break. They are not the invincible machines that last 50 years with nothing but maintenance. Are they reliable? Yep. Most surveys put 'em above average; some at the top of the class. Are they perfect? Nope. My 2006 Accord had warranty work done twice in 1,000 miles for a loose interior rear-view mirror (the glass was not glued to the plastic housing, causing MAJOR vibration issues) as well as a gas flap with a tendency not to open.

    Perfect? Nope. Wasn't enough to make me dislike my car (I didn't buy it on perfect reliability alone, but for a plethora of reasons including, but-not-limited-to, dependability).

    I think there are Hondas that come from the factory with no flaws (unlike my vehicle which had two). I also think that there are Hyundais and Fords and Chevrolets and Subarus and Mazdas etc... that come this way too.

    Andres, I'm a Honda guy. Between me, my parents, my grandparents, and my great aunt there are 6 Hondas, and only 1 Nissan. 86% of my immediate family's vehicles are Hondas! But guess what, they aren't all flawless.

    1996 Accord LX - 175k, several repairs, currently has moderately worn shocks, never stranded b/c of the repairs
    1997 Civic LX - ~113k, alternator, exhaust system 2 years ago(we live in Alabama where we haven't had snow in 7 years)
    2002 Accord LX - 89k, rattle in the dash, too-tight throttle linkage yet-to-be addressed
    2005 Odyssey EX cloth - 35k, misaligned rear bumper, tailgate rubber seal not properly in place, airbag sensor recall, whistling windshield 50-60MPH
    2006 Accord EX cloth - 24k, (((See Above)))
    2007 Civic EX - 26k, NONE

    Listed above are the Hondas in my family, their mileage, and their problems. I drive all these cars at least once a month, with emphasis on the three Accords.

    As you can see, with the exception of dad's new Civic, they are all far from perfect. My aunt's Odyssey has required a nice long time in the shop for all of its issues.

    I'm a Honda guy, but I'm not bowing at the big "H," and after seeing and feeling the interior in the new Accord, I may not be driving away in an Accord at my next purchase opportunity. I am nit-picky about interiors, and was very disappointed by the 2008s.
  • Taurus: 129 cu ft

    Not in this class of vehicles though. A Grand Marquis is bigger than a Yaris is, too! :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    This works other ways. For example, why would anyone need a passenger volume of 106 cubic feet on a mid-sized car? That's much more than anyone needs, unless they have some sort of gland problem. And who needs 190 hp on a four-cylinder family car? Or 260+ hp on a V6 family car? How fast do you need to go to the grocery store, anyway??

    If Accord has a feature or attribute, it is a Good Thing. If it doesn't have a feature or is lacking in some attribute compared to the competition, no one needs that feature or attribute. At least, that is what I've gathered from this discussion.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    IIRC, Honda and Toyotas don't offer extended warranties. It is a third party deal. OTOH, Honda and Toyota warranties are straight forward and not convoluted like Hyundai. I'm surprised by many that they don't have a clue about Hyundai's ten year warranty being non-transferable outside of "relationship sales". So, why does Hyundai do that?

    And speaking of warranties, Honda and Toyota offer shorter (5-year/60K mile powertrain) warranty on new cars, but they extend it to 100K miles on certified used cars. This allows used cars have better value. In fact, one could find a six year old Accord right now, and if Honda certified, it would be covered under warranty for miles remaining up to 100K. (In Hyundai's case, the car cannot be older than 4 years, and must have less than 48K miles on it).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Ask C&D. They were one of the reviewers who would often put Accord's size as one of its cons.

    So, how much cabin size/trunk size is good for you? Do you assign it a number, or do you go by actual experience (comfort, driving position etc)? How about power? Believe me, Accord EX-L/NAV would be my choice if I do go for the Accord, and not because it has 190 HP versus 177 HP. I couldn't care less about 150 HP versus 200 HP ten years ago!

    So, why exactly do you have a problem with these?

    And no, I don't think all Accord's features make sense to me. I'm one of those people who thinks Honda could have done a few things differently than they did (in terms of features). The discussion gets to the point that apparently you've been gathering, thanks to Hyundai flag wavers. :p (sorry colloquor, couldn't resist stealing your words).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Class be damned. We aren't going to compare full size cars only to full size cars going by EPA's definition. For me, family sedan it is, it could be the tiny Mazda6 or the behemoth Taurus, and everything in between.
  • Well, the host is likely to ask you to create a new comparo, because the Taurus is not intended as a competitor to the vehicles in here. It's also not included in the listed vehicles in this forum. Ford's entry here is the Fusion.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Why do Honda and Toyota have to offer extended warranties on used cars, if they are so reliable?

    This web page looks to me like Honda offers extended warranties. Note the words "factory backed," for example. The company that underwrites an extended warranty (typically an insurance company, since extended warranties are in effect insurance policies) is irrelevant to who offers, sells, and backs the warranty. Honda Care is advertised by Honda, sold by Honda dealers, and backed by Honda.

    http://www.hondafinancialservices.com/Planning/honda.asp

    And I'm not sure what you mean by Hyundai's "convoluted" warranty. Its terms are very clear to me, a Hyundai owner. If other Hyundai owners don't take a few minutes to read the warranty on their cars, how does that make the warranty "convoluted"?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Then I will ask the host if we should be discussing Accord and Sonata here. :P
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Why do Honda and Toyota have to offer extended warranties on used cars, if they are so reliable?

    Do you believe companies offer warranties if they sell products that aren't reliable?
  • Oh c'mon now. We discuss the Azera in the full-size discussion, as it is designed to compete with those sedans. We discuss the Sonata here for the same reason.

    I'm just repeating what pat had told me before when I mentioned the Accord in the full-size sedans forum.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I will wait for Pat. :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Your comments are interesting, given that a short time ago you brought to our attention the fact that the Accord has more passenger space (106 cubic feet) than any car we are discussing here. So I took that to mean that you believe the the sheer interior volume of the Accord was a positive feature of the car. But when I pointed out that another car in this class offers more interior space, suddenly cabin/trunk space is no longer important to you, now it's all about "actual experience" (comfort, driving position, etc.).

    I don't have any problem with the Accord's features. I think it has lots of good features (although I am one who thinks hp in family sedans is getting out of hand). I just get kind of tired with people holding up attributes of the Accord as great things, until it's pointed out that some competitor has more, or has some feature the Accord doesn't have. Then it's, "oh, that really isn't important." If we are going to compare cars, we can at least be fair about it. Some cars do some things better than others. Accord shines in a number of areas. But it doesn't mean it trumps competitors in all facets.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Do you believe companies offer warranties if they sell products that aren't reliable?

    You have a good point. I guess that means mid-sized cars with longer warranties, e.g. Avenger, Sebring, Galant, Optima, and Sonata, are quite reliable.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yes - Hyundai posts the whole enchilada on the warranty, in great detail. And it is not all that long a read, and pretty easy to comprehend. Most companies do not. - Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Avenger and Sebring are less desirable, as in not selling well, thus a longer warranty to help move stock. Dittos on Galant. The Optima and Sonata still have the stigma associated with Korean cars after the earliest efforts fell short, and thus a longer warranty. And in general, it is matching those other cars within the same league. Honda and Camry may choose like warranties, and the two may wish to match say Nissan if they have some extra super warranty and start selling more cars. The warranty wars are nothing new. Ford, Chrysler and GM all did that number years ago. It is an old dance. Those extra long warranties as in from here to eternity are usually out of desperation however. Kia and Hyundai are still, right or wrong, here in import car land, not seen as having the same status as the Japan makes. This could take a decade, though who really does know how long, to turn around where it comes to perceived quality and goodness of product between Korea and Japan. Heck, many see this as an opportunity to buy the Korean product at lower prices, with longer warranty, and are very happy indeed with their decision to venture into the future of a possible world of equality amongst Korean and Japan brands. Bold Moves. Oh doh, that's someone else. :blush: Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I guess that means mid-sized cars with longer warranties, e.g. Avenger, Sebring, Galant, Optima, and Sonata, are quite reliable.

    Longer warranties, if you look at the reliability ratings, do not mean the car is more reliable. Maybe these manufacturers are hoping the cars are sold to someone else (who the warranty cannot be transferred to) before there are major problems. So I guess if the car is not so hot, there's a good chance of that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Longer warranties, if you look at the reliability ratings, do not mean the car is more reliable. Maybe these manufacturers are hoping the cars are sold to someone else (who the warranty cannot be transferred to) before there are major problems.

    OK... so the fact that Honda's extended warranty is longer (in miles at least) than that of Hyundai or Kia or Mitsubishi or many others does NOT mean that the Accord is more reliable than the mid-sized cars from these other brands? This is getting kind of confusing! :confuse:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Accord isn't considered more reliable based on length of its warranty. You're the one digging this up, and getting confused in the process. :sick:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    You were complaining about exterior size and made it sound like "where did it go". I followed it up. Now, you're complaining again, with the examples I quoted.

    Trunk size and cabin volume has never been the primary focus of my purchase. You're the one throwing things around and creating a mess. Didn't I say it couple of days ago that if I wanted to go cheaper than Accord, I would go Civic?

    I just get kind of tired with people holding up attributes of the Accord as great things, until it's pointed out that some competitor has more, or has some feature the Accord doesn't have.

    I won't be surprised if Chery (when it arrives in America) has far more features. Would that make them benchmarks?

    Seriously, If I couldn't afford it, I'd be willing to let go of a feature or two to drive a better car. You can't convince buyers like me to buy a car based on discounted price and additional features. They are all that for a reason!
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    My warranty also outbrakes all of the warranties in this class. Plus, my warranty looks much better than yours. I can fit a bookshelf in my warranty, which is something none of the other warranties can do. And my warranty is much more fun than the other warranties in this class while not sacrificing comfort, practicality, or reliability (JD Powers and Consumer Reports both indicate that over a 5 year history, the difference between the most reliable and below average cars is less than 1 problem over that 5 years). Combined with the fact that I can buy my warranty for more than a few thousand dollars less than other warranties is nice frosting on this warranty cake. All in all, I really like my warranty. I also like the car that comes with it...
  • Robertsmx,

    Toyota does offer extended warranties. I purchased my 3 year/50,000 mile warranty through Toyota. It is called the Platinum Extended Warranty....I got it for a little under $600 and can cancel it at the end of my lease if I'm under my mileage and receive a refund for the remainder.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    OK... so the fact that Honda's extended warranty is longer (in miles at least) than that of Hyundai or Kia or Mitsubishi or many others does NOT mean that the Accord is more reliable than the mid-sized cars from these other brands?

    Indeed not, and the long warranty on the Hyundai does not mean it's more reliable either. It just means Hyundai is taking the chance that you will sell the car, before major repairs are needed. Since it's a less desirable car, I can see how they would come to that conclusion. ;)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    says it best: zzzoom6, "Midsize Sedans 2.0" #5869, 24 Sep 2007 9:16 pm

    Let's drop the warranty arguments - they have nothing to do with the actual features of the cars and all you folks are doing is just baiting each other.
  • I think you are right on with that. I don't very much think that we will ever be seeing ANY of todays cars running around the area in say 20-30 yrs, but something like those older VW's and many others are still plugging along. Granted they aren't the ideal vehicle, or for that matter even a desireable one but they are still around and running (? after a fashion?) How many of today's will be able to say that. My guess is with the electronics, and hydraulics, etc involved not very many will make it to that length of time. My own opinion.
    van
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Pat, to clarify: are you saying we shouldn't talk about warranties at all here? What about things like resale value and pricing? Those aren't features of a car either, but I think you would agree they are important factors for many people in choosing a car. And they factors that are mentioned in most reviews Edmunds.com does on cars--along with warranties.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I am saying that we've beaten the warranties to death and we need to get back to the actual cars. If you want to argue the point, email me please.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    No, I am just asking for a clarification, not an argument. Thank you, and have a great day.
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