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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Are there people out there that are going to get better then $3,300 off MSRP on a Mazda6? Probably.

    I am one who did, I got about $5000 off on a sport value automatic (this included a $2000 rebate) back in Jan. If like me, one is able to get a better than average discount on a car this reduces the depreciation.

    I paid $16,124 (after adding back in document fee) for a car where the average deal is perhaps more like $18,000??? If the average depreciation is 1/3 in the first two years, the car would then be worth $12,000. This would mean my depreciation would be around 25%. Also my loss of value would be "only" about $4000 vs. the typical $6000. Not that I plan to sell anytime in the next decade, anyway :D .

    The particular deal one gets can have more impact on one's personal depreciation than whatever the average depreciation figures show. I am pretty sure I will lose less to depreciation on my Mazda6, than I would have had I gotten an average deal on an Accord...of course a lilengineerboy discount on an Accord would be a different matter.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    So are we now accepting EPA's decree on the size class of cars? If so, Pontiac G6, Accord coupe, and Subaru Legacy are compact not midsize.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    It's always been EPA. We are talking about dimensions - usable space (size class), not market class.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    :confuse:

    EPA size class is compact for the cars I listed.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Better value generally only translates to sales leader for commodity items. Car buyers never buy on price alone. Well, almost never - I did know ONE guy that did many years ago.

    Even value minded car buyers have subjective preferences for styling, features and performance.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    And?

    The C/D article had the Accord as a full-sizer, according to EPA. thegraduate and I pointed out the Sonata is also classified as full-size per EPA.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    And...who cares what EPA "size class" is. It is a silly way to classify cars. The only purpose of that is to decide which vehicles are included on the mpg sticker for comparison.

    Maybe my point about the cars classified as "compact" was too subtle or do you argree with EPA that the those vehicles are compacts? Does the Legacy compete with the Accord (sedan) or the Civic...or maybe neither...or maybe only with the Accord Sedan sans sunroof? How about the G6...does it compete with the midsize (and kinda similar ;) ) malibu or the compact Cobalt?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I've heard that one before. So, what did you disagree with in that test drive? Other than two errors I noted. One, Accord V6's pre-PZEV rating was 273 HP which they have stuck with, PZEV version is 268 HP). And two, they forgot Sonata is another full size car. But perhaps because, Sonata is a forgettable car? :P

    J/k. I appreciate its qualities, and I'm sure it works well for a lot of folks. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I think C&D is one of the rare automotive source that actually knows a thing or two about cars, or it might be because I too see some of the things that they note in their tests. Must be in the driving style.
  • Maybe my point about the cars classified as "compact" was too subtle or do you argree with EPA that the those vehicles are compacts? Does the Legacy compete with the Accord (sedan) or the Civic...or maybe neither...or maybe only with the Accord Sedan sans sunroof? How about the G6...does it compete with the midsize (and kinda similar ) malibu or the compact Cobalt?

    Actually, that raises a good point. The new Accord to me seems like the Avalon and Maxima, so I do consider them in another class. The old Accord (03-07) is noticeably bigger than the Legacy of the same time frame, but they might be close enough to be in the same category. How big is the Passat, that car seems huge to me as well. The G6 always seemed snugger than the Malibu, so maybe that difference is big enough to make the G6 compete with the Cobalt or maybe not. That doesn't mean the car doesn't have a place even if its closer to a smaller car. My Contour wasn't much bigger than an Escort but I liked it a lot more.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Car buyers never buy on price alone.

    I start with an upper limit on price, and get the car that offers me the best combination of everything I care for. So, I don't take price out of the picture, in fact it is the starting point to consider a bunch of options out there. I'm not one to compare a Mercedes E55 AMG to a mainstream family sedan. Price alone determines that. Next are the attributes of the car, again, within a price range.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I am in agreement with you. I merely posted the fact both the Sonata are Accord are classified as full-size. It should be noted, however, both still compete with others in the midsize family sedan category.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    who cares what EPA "size class" is. It is a silly way to classify cars.

    I agree. EPA's standard depends on standards used by automakers. And while cabin volume is measured based on legroom, headroom and shoulder room (the three are multipled, front and back, with inch converted to ft), trunk volume is something that doesn't seem to follow a standard. Some use SAE method, others use VDA, and this little known fact creates discrepancies. Trunks perceived to be large may not really be larger. It would depend on the standard used by automakers.

    PS.
    SAE method uses fine grain substance/sand/water to fill up the space. The volume used is the specified volume. So this includes every nook and cranny (not necessarily usable space).

    VDA (Verband der Automobilindustrie) method uses standard size wooden block and depending on how many make it, their volume determines the volume of the space. This results in a lower number but is more indicative of "useful space".

    Edmunds has tried quoting both but they seem to have gotten the numbers mixed up. For example, they quoted 2008 Mercedes C350 as having 16.8 cu ft trunk under VDA (should be SAE) and 12.5 cu ft trunk under SAE (should be VDA). MB uses VDA method, as does Honda. Many European automakers will quote both. Others, one or the other.

    In this case (C350), VDA to SAE discrepancy is a whopping 34% (4.3 cu ft).
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    I merely posted the fact both the Sonata are Accord are classified as full-size. It should be noted, however, both still compete with others in the midsize family sedan category.

    All good to know. Well, at least for the crazies like us that post on these forums. ;)

    That last sentence is why I said I'd consider the Accord last if I were shopping for a full-sizer. Even though the Taurus and Avalon are priced a bit higher they offer a lot more space which is why you would want a full-sizer in the first place most likely.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    You're in the car business so I'm sure you know more about how accurate KBB is... I'm sure KBB is just a guide, kind of like the weatherman. Thing is, even though the weatherman is often wrong, I still listen cuz it's better info than what I could usually come up with on my own.

    I don't fault anyone for listining to KBB, how can I? Even before I was in the biz, I thought they were accutate too! What is hard is convincing potential customers that KBB is inacurate, and they can only be used a slim guide line.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I merely posted the fact both the Sonata are Accord are classified as full-size.

    Accord is classified as midsize with sunroof and as full size without sunroof.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Accord is classified as midsize with sunroof and as full size without sunroof.

    and, don't forget, it is classified by EPA as a compact in the coupe. Which I only point out to illustrate the silliness of relying on EPA to decide what class a car is in.

    Here's more: Midsize per EPA includes Nissan Versa and Sentra...with the Altima that makes three.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    The EPA classes can be of help in identifying cars to consider. For example, if someone is looking for the most room for their bucks, they could look at "mid-sizers" like the Versa, Sentra, and Elantra and "full-sizers" like the Accord LX and Sonata. But don't forget those that are on the periphery. For example, the Optima is 1 whopping cubic foot less in volume than the full-sized Accord LX. The Camry is real close to the magic 120 cubic foot mark also. So the Optima and Camry are mid-sized per the EPA while the Accord LX is full-sized. But in terms of usable space, there's not much difference.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    When I was looking, I of course wanted adequate space to be comfortable in the front. Back seat comfort needed to only be basic... enough for leg room and elbow room for two 6 footers. More important to me was how the interior space could be configured for hauling things. Previously, I had a wagon and fell in love with it's versatility. I wasn't crazy about the looks of a wagon though (got sick of being called a soccer-dad), so when I found a Mazda6 hatchback, I was instantly intrigued.

    It looked as good as the sedan, in fact in some ways, I like it better. The hatch opening was huge which would allow putting in very large cargo very easy. The seats folded down extremely easily...from the rear bumper, there are two switches that when pulled, the spring loaded seats fall forward; from the rear doors, there are buttons by the headrest that also make the back seats fall forward. With the rear seats folded down, the floor was flat which was great for pushing boxes back without getting hung up when loading through the hatch.

    Mazda did a great job making space comfortable when transporting multiple people and also making the space cavernous and easily useable when needed to haul things around. And even better, they did all this while maintaining the Mazda6's great looking exterior. They even put several tie down points which kept my lawnmower from rolling around when I took it into the shop... very smart. All this talk about EPA rated sizes was of little importance to me because it does not take into account of how space can be used The Mazda6 hatchback is a great example of how different ways of looking at how space can be better utilized can result in a much more handy product.
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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I agree, the Mazda6 hatch is a great package. I almost bought one back in 2004, but back then the discounts on the then-new hatch were almost nil, so even the 6i hatch cost a LOT more than the car I chose, an Elantra hatch (which isn't a lot smaller in usable space). I hope Mazda offers the 2009 Mazda6 as a hatch in the U.S.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Well said. EPA does use a different classification for wagons (and yet another for light trucks) but then I don’t know if a hatchback is classified under cars or wagons because it is an in-between thing.

    As far as EPA’s definition is concerned, I’m not sure of the real purpose. But if they must use a standard for whatever purpose, I think it should be based on a standard (as opposed to letting automakers use their own around cargo volume, payload, towing etc).
  • Actually, the thought of government agencies making random judgment calls that are seemingly based on nothing doesn't bother me as much as the fact that all the ratings on passenger car tires are "self evaluated" by tire manufacturers and then used for marketing. Of course those ratings are based on more random government standards, but oh well.
  • Yea - OK - but you have no trunk. I'd rather isolate my stuff in a trunk than give it up for the one time in a hundred a hatch would be more convenient.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Items in Mazda6 Hatch are isolated. They are secure.

    You can not get into the hatch/trunk are without going thru the parcel shelf.
    Hatch has to be open in order to move the parcel shelf.
    Latches to move rear seatsbacks up is in hatch area and not in the passenger cabin.

    100 times out of 100 I have the option of greater utility than the sedan with "trunk".
  • Items in Mazda6 Hatch are isolated. They are secure.

    Yeah, OK. And there's this bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in....

    Hatchbacks are dead in America. Wonder why?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Hatchbacks are dead in America. Wonder why?

    "SUVs"... the new "station wagon".
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Hatchbacks are dead in America. Wonder why?

    Ignorance!

    You should share your knowledge of hatchbacks being dead with-

    Toyota

    Nissan

    Honda

    Scion

    Saab

    Volvo

    MINI

    Dodge

    Mazda

    Pontiac

    Hyundai

    Mitsubishi

    Audi

    Saturn

    Volkswagen

    Smart

    &
    Suzuki

    They did not get the memo.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Hatchbacks are dead in America. Wonder why?

    Because they're not. Here's a partial listing of hatchbacks available now or that will be introduced soon. Automakers wouldn't make all these hatchback models if there were no demand for them:

    Honda Fit
    * Nissan Versa
    Mazda3
    * Mazda6
    Toyota Yaris
    Toyota Matrix
    * Toyota Prius
    * Scion xB
    Scion xD
    * Hyundai Elantra Touring
    * Kia Spectra5
    Kia Rio5
    Suzuki Reno
    Suzuki SX4
    Audi A3
    MINI Cooper
    Chevy Cobalt
    Dodge Caliber
    Pontiac Vibe
    Saturn Astra
    Smart cars
    Subaru Impreza
    Volkswagen Rabbit
    Volvo C30

    (The ones with * are mid-sized per EPA stats.)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    If I really needed a lot of interior storage space, I would have bought a CRV. I would not want something dirty, or smelly (lawn mower for instance) in the interior with me though. For things like this, and for larger objects (washer, dryer, fridge) that will not fit in a hatchback or SUV, I have a truck. No need for a hatchback, in my case.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    True, a SUV or crossover would give me superior cargo carrying capacity. But an important characteristic that I was wanting besides a large cargo area was a car with good handling. With a higher center of gravity (which is why SUV's are much more likely to get into a dangerous rollover than a car) handling is compromised too much to the point where I think I would be sacrificing both fun and safety. The unique appeal of the Mazda6 hatchback is that I can have great handling and lots of cargo space while still having a very nice looking exterior.

    To the people who have said that they don't want to put dirty things in the hatch for fear of getting things dirty or making the inside smelly, I haven't had that problem. Nor have most of my friends and family who have SUV's to haul things around. It's not that hard to wipe off a plastic, waterproof cargo mat. And as long as I'm not hauling manure around, it's not going to smell that bad for long. Besides, I've discovered the wonderful Febreeze does wonders at freshening the inside of the car.

    Some may say, "Well just buy another vehicle..." Thing is, I spent the 4 thousand bucks I saved on my Mazda6 vs a comparibly equipped Accord or Legacy on a plasma HDTV, a DSLR camera, a high backed queen bed frame, a coffee table, car mounted gps, a portable DVD player, a queen mattress, and a years worth of car insurance (all of which fit in my hatchback btw :shades: except the queen mattress which came w/ free delivery anyway). Plus I don't have a good place to park a truck, and I hate having trucks stacked outside my house (I think it looks not too good). And really, I've yet to need to borrow anyone's truck for my needs since I've had my Mazda6 hatchback since everything I've wanted has fit in it which would suggest that I don't need a truck...
  • So I was discussing my disappointment with some aspects of the Accord with one of my friends and he suggested the Acura TSX A-spec suspension components. He also mentioned the Acura crowd seems to go to a larger rear sway bar as well.
    I also found a Mugen short throw shifter, but I think its 6speed only. Is there a forum that discusses this type of thing?
    I think that would allow the car to remain mostly OEM but a lot more fun to drive.
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