Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

I would assume depreciation is a big reason why the Jetta is listed as lowest "true cost to own" sedan under $25,000.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/tco/2008/index.html

csr67

VW quality is all over the road. Just traded my 2003 GTI with 70k miles for an accord. During those 70k had only one repair, a temp. sensor that costs $200 at a dealer. Other than that totally trouble free for 70k, traded it still on all four original brakes and the original clutch. There were some little annoying problems like $25 wheel center caps that seemed to self destruct and two little radio knobs that flew of for $50 of replacement. You've got to like VW's to deal with some of the quirks like little stuff, but I'm glad to be back in a Honda. VW's cost a fortune to fix when they do fail.

kdshapiro

What? They are all mainstream vehicles. Most vehicles do not sell like a Honda Accord, but saying they are specialty. A specialty vehicle is a Rolls-Royce, Ferrari, Bentley. But a BMW? Infiniti? Jeep?

lilengineerboy

Galant owner here. I read the forums a lot but rarely have occasion to comment. My '99 has been solid & reliable; easily the best car I've ever bought. I don't care for the body style on the current Galant so it's not on my short-list should the need for a replacement arise before it is redisgned. But I've no problem recommending the brand based on my experience.

I had an '89 Galant base base model (no a/c, no pw, etc). I paid $5995 in 1991 w/44k. I sold it in 1998 for $2000 with 165k. I got it as a junior in HS, sold it when I finished college (and got the Contour SE). I always dreamed of getting the Galant VR-4 (or any Diamond Star AWD turbo for that matter) but alas, I missed my window. The Galant was great though, it held 4 bikes in the trunk (wheels removed) and 4 people inside so it was great for mountain bike racing season. It also got great mileage so it was, well, great for mountain bike racing season. Ahhh collegiate life...

m6user

I exaggerated a little. I said nearly all but it's really about half of them are speciality. I explained the special circumstances with the Wrangler and the Viper? Do you disagree with that explanation?

How many BMW 1 series have you seen on the road?

kdshapiro

How many BMW 1 series have you seen on the road?

Considering they started selling them recently a few. But with this vehicle it is the predicated reliability. I do agree there are some leaps of faith in that chart.

Who is better off, the owner of a $100K auto which retains 70% of it's value or the owner of a $25K auto that retains 40% of it's value? I dunno. Point is certain cars have little depreciation.

I don't consider a Wrangler a speciality, there are many of them on the roads. Don't see too many Vipers though, see a lot of Vettes.

m6user

I don't consider a Wrangler a speciality

I guess I should have used different terminology. I should have said special case. I know there's quite a few but I still believe the high resale value is a result of the "young outdoorsy appeal" and young people wanting them rather than intrinsic quality which I think Tedebear was referring to. They are pretty expensive too for what you get IMO.

I haven't seen any BMW 1s in person yet. Of course, Chicago area may not be one of their strongholds. But if it's predicted resale value like you say, why wouldn't other BMWs be on that list.

kdshapiro

But if it's predicted resale value like you say, why wouldn't other BMWs be on that list.

Because the 1 series is a hot item. Hotter than the 3 series. It's like saying if the Wrangler is on the list why aren't all Jeeps, or all Dodges or all Porsches. Certain cars have a certain appeal that keeps their resale up.

elroy5

I think some cars are more sought after when they are used, than when they are new. Kind of a supply and demand thing going on where there aren't enough new one's sold to supply the demand for used ones. I don't think "midsize sedans" fall into this category though. They have to get a high resale value the old fashioned way. EARN IT, with a solid reputation.

pengwin

I'm gonna comment on this little "vw reliability is terrible" discussion going on.

I was at enterprise a few weeks a go and i got a 2007 VW Jetta with ~37k miles. I had to go out of town and didnt want to put miles on my car, 2003 corolla w/ ~170k miles.

Well i got on the free way, drove about 3 miles, dash lit up, turned around and went back for a different car. HA-HA. Just kidding, you suckers, smacking your lips at a "VW has terrible reliability" anecdote.

Any who, the real story, drove it 700 miles in 2.5 days, LOVED the car. Good amount of power, windows worked, dash wasn't lighted up like a Christmas tree, served me well for the trip. Really, really thinking about buying one now. Loved the transmission in it, is it a DSG? Really smooth shifting even when you put it in manual. Bottom line, this car was a rental car, abused as much as possible but everything still worked. I don't know if VW stepped up its quality control but the new Jetta is a charm.

edit. come to think about it, it has a wonderful engine, great for passing

m6user

Agreed. Good point.

bobgwtw

I take issue with your conclusions abour reliability ratings. To start with, if you look at the consumers report ratings, they report problems by model year; and very few 1 or 2, year old cars are used. The J. D. powers IQ survey rates new cars during the 1st 90 DAYS OF OWNERSHIP. So, yeah, the surverys tend to be a pretty darn indicator of reliability.

elroy5

I was at enterprise a few weeks a go and i got a 2007 VW Jetta with ~37k miles. I had to go out of town and didnt want to put miles on my car, 2003 corolla w/ ~170k miles.

Since the Jetta was still under warranty, I would hope everything worked. I guess if I drove an 03 Corolla with 170k miles on it every day, an 07 Jetta with 37k miles would impress me too.

thegraduate

Loved the transmission in it, is it a DSG?

Nope; simply a manumatic, like the one in the Sonata, Camry, Altima, etc... offer.

I was at enterprise a few weeks a go and i got a 2007 VW Jetta with ~37k miles. Good amount of power, windows worked, dash wasn't lighted up like a Christmas tree, served me well for the trip.

Let's hope; 37,000 miles isn't far past broken-in!

Bottom line, this car was a rental car, abused as much as possible but everything still worked.

If you had a rental Mustang, I might agree. We're talking about one of VW's economy cars though, not exactly what people wanting flog a car will leap for (I'll be 21 Sunday and the Jetta with that grunting engine would be down the list of vehicles I'd choose despite how much I like the handling and the interior). With gas prices being what they are these days (and they were last year too), people will remember that they have to fill up the car at the end of the trip, too!

edit. come to think about it, it has a wonderful engine, great for passing

That Jetta had 150hp and gets 19/28 MPG (which is what Toyota's Camry gets with 268 horses). I'd say the engine is one of the biggest demerits against the car. The one pro: it is torquey; good around town, but a relative dog when merging/passing. Not trying to start something here, just expressing a VERY strong disagreement. Hey, different strokes for different folks, right?

Something to note, the newer Jettas do have a power bump (to 170hp I believe) with better economy as well (still not great for its size and power, though) to 21/29.

pengwin

i've also driven the camry, it just doesnt have that sense of speed also it feels like im in a boat.

back on topic though, i saw everyone complaining about how VW's break down in 2 months and rental car's are not babied at all yet everything was still working.

aviboy97

No one here says that VW's don't drive nice, because it's quite the contrary. VW's are fun to drive. There's no doubt about that. Historically, they just become such a head ache out of warranty, as many here can attest too. As always, there are those who have not been burned by them.

mickeyrom

This car has gotten very little ink on this thread,so I am here to sing it's praises.I have had mine since Nov of 2006 and it's running great! It's a 2006.5 model which actually is a 2007. It handles as well as a Jag,gets good mileage on the highway,is comfortable and has a very nice stereo.I think it's the best kept secret in the car world.
Although the car has been trouble free,my 100 K mile waranty on the power train lets me relax, and sleep easy.All around waranty is 50K or 6 years(or is it 60K and 5 years?) I forget,lol.
Next time you're renting a car,try an Optima,you just might like it. :shades:

m6user

If you had a rental Mustang, I might agree. We're talking about one of VW's economy cars though, not exactly what people wanting flog a car will leap for (I'll be 21 Sunday and the Jetta with that grunting engine would be do

He didn't say flog, he said abused. There is a difference. You're pretty young so I don't imagine you've had a lot of experience with rentals. Take it from me, rental cars get abused from day one in their life.

lilengineerboy

If you had a rental Mustang, I might agree. We're talking about one of VW's economy cars though, not exactly what people wanting flog a car will leap for (I'll be 21 Sunday and the Jetta with that grunting engine would be down the list of vehicles I'd choose despite how much I like the handling and the interior). With gas prices being what they are these days (and they were last year too), people will remember that they have to fill up the car at the end of the trip, too!

Eh, remarkably not the typical case. I worked across the street from the rental return place and the condition of the vehicles getting returned was dismaying. Also, the rental car company drivers that take the car from the return, run in through an automated car wash, and then drop it off on the front line again beat on the vehicles at least as bad as any customer. It has nothing to do with the type of car, it has to do with "its not MY car."

That Jetta had 150hp and gets 19/28 MPG (which is what Toyota's Camry gets with 268 horses). I'd say the engine is one of the biggest demerits against the car. The one pro: it is torquey; good around town, but a relative dog when merging/passing. Not trying to start something here, just expressing a VERY strong disagreement. Hey, different strokes for different folks, right?

As you later noted, the inline 5 is 170hp, the 2.0l turbo is 200 hp. The Jetta beat the Camry in ever handling performance measure. In fact, the only non-power related test it lost was braking with 60-0 in 134' while the class leaders are around 120 feet.

Subjectively, it lacks the feeling that you are driving a rolling mortuary.

aviboy97

The Jetta is not in the same class as the Camry. The Jetta is a compact car and really just a sedan version on the Rabbit. The Jetta really compares to a Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Mazda3.

lilengineerboy

The Jetta is not in the same class as the Camry. The Jetta is a compact car and really just a sedan version on the Rabbit. The Jetta really compares to a Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Mazda3

I didn't make the original comparison. But to your point, it spanks the Corolla, ties the Civic EX, and loses to the handling champ Mazda3.

m6user

I agree that most people classify the Jetta as a compact as does the EPA. However, there are a lot of cars on the EPA midsize list we don't discuss either. I am currently cross shopping the Jetta with other midsize autos. Why? Because it has a huge trunk about the same size as the 09 Mazda6, it has the same HP as the 09 Mazda6, it costs about the same similarly equipped to the Mazda6 and about $3000 more than the Mazda3. It weighs about the same as a 6, 400 more lbs than the 3.

To me the Passat seems huge and bulky and the Jetta reminds me a lot of the 1st gen 6. I guess you could call it a "tweener" in my opinion. Kind of like the Elantra and others.

But you're right. We have to draw the line somewhere so let's get back to discussing midsize vehicles.

jeffyscott

Next time you're renting a car,try an Optima,you just might like it.

On the contrary, I posted a couple weeks ago about having had one for a week as a rental and my conclusion was if they ever try to put me in one again, I'll beg them to please find something else.

"Handles like a Jag"...please, like a Camry, maybe.

jeffyscott

One more interuption to the regularly scheduled program...

I probably have already mentioned this, but since you are actually shopping and hearing all the of all the VW horrors...Don't fear the Jetta, reliability of the new version, with 2.5 engine, has been average or above according to CR.

m6user

Don't fear the Jetta,

I don't. I have had three VWs albeit it was quite some time ago but I liked each one....did have a few issues but nothing totally out of the ordinary.

If you look on whole scheme of things, the average person who is pretty satisfied with a car might state so once and you never hear from them again. The person that takes everything personally and gets a lemon will go on and on and on and on like the energizer bunny. They could have had a bad experience 10 or 20 years ago and still be bad mouthing the brand. Some people have only owned two or three cars in their life but they are experts because they read a lot of car magazine reviews. Like I said before, if VW was that bad then they have one hell of a lot of first time buyers out there worldwide.

I've come to realize that everything you read or hear has to be weighed carefully as to legitimacy....especially magazine road tests.

elroy5

My sister has an 06 Optima, and she said it's comparable to her previous 2001 Camry. She says it doesn't measure up to to the last two generations of Camry or Accord. Basically, according to her, it's two generations behind the class leaders. She said the seats were not padded well (cloth), so I sat in the driver's seat, and it felt like the seats in my 92 Sentra (not enough padding, and weak springs). Maybe the leather seats are better? She said it was a couple thousand dollars cheaper than an 06 Camry or Accord, so for the money, she's somewhat satisfied with what she got. You get what you pay for.

thegraduate

My goodness - I had no idea my comments would get so many replies!

Just an FYI: my comments regarding the Camry were just made to illustrate the difference in a car whose high-point is its engine, versus the Jetta, whose wasn't in 2007.

jeffyscott

Just to be clear, my comments comparing the Optima handling to a Camry, were not meant to be complimentary to either model. Optima, to me has vague steering and is more concerned with giving passengers a soft ride and quiet isolation than handling.

elroy5

My sister has no opinion on handling. She's an A to B person, not an enthusiast. She was just commenting on the overall quality of the Optima.

aviboy97

I don't think it was you who made the direct comparison to the Camry. I was commenting on someone else.

Don't you feel special what everyone wants to rip apart your posts? :shades:

backy

"Handles like a Jag"...please, like a Camry, maybe.

FWIW, every professional review I've read of the Optima vs. Camry, including C/D and MT, said that the Optima handles better than the Camry. That has been my impression also.

backy

FYI the 2006 Optima is a totally different car than the current-gen Optima, which debuted in mid-2006 as a 2006.5 model. The 2006 was a 1999-2005 Sonata with styling and interior differences. So the comparison to the 2001 Camry is about right, since they come from the same era.

Have you driven or even looked closely at the current Optima?

jeffyscott

My sister has no opinion on handling.

Right and that is fine.

I just wanted to be clear that I was not saying that the Optima is as good, overall, as a Camry, rather I was only saying that the handling is probably as bad as one (to me).

I have no opinion on an overall comparison of the two models as neither has any appeal to me.

elroy5

It must be the 06.5 Optima (or whatever), because it definitely is the new model. It looks nothing like the 05.

backy

I tend to agree with the professional reviews I've seen such as C/D's which put the Optima over the current-gen Camry, noting that the Optima has higher levels of quality/fit-finish and has in fact "out-Toyota'ed" Toyota. The fact that the Optima can be had for thousands less than a comparable Camry and has the long warranty is icing on the cake.

micro99

Hey mickeyrom, don`t be too discouraged by our two "self -professed car enthusiasts" who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than roam these boards and make uninformed disparaging comments about cars they have never owned !! Kia has a less-than-sterling reputation to overcome BUT the most recent generation Optima`s (2006.5 through to current) demonstrate imo at least how remarkably quickly change is coming about. This car is a solid, well built and exceptionally quiet vehicle, with driving/handling characteristics that are more than adequate for all everyday drivers. The fit and finish, both interior and exterior is remarkable, and material quality is very high.Again imo the best value Optima is the top-of line model where the list of convenience and safety features cannot be matched by most competitors. When competitors do come close to matching features, they come with a significantly higher price tag.
The long term reliability of the Optima has yet to be determined but CR mag gives the recent generation Optima good marks. The difficulty is always to get enough feedback to legitimize the surveys.

backy

IMO the best value Optima is the LX I4 5AT with Appearance Package and ABS/ESC package, just under $20k MSRP including destination. The EX I4 is a pretty nice package for the money too, under $21k MSRP with leather, but what kills it for me is that you can't get one with just the ABS/ESC package, you have to load it up with other options also... at least that is what a Kia dealer told me. And I tend to believe them, since I've scoured my region and have never seen anything but a loaded EX with ABS/ESC. And I found only a handful of LX I4s with that package. That is the only major drawback to the Optima for me... very hard to get an I4 with ABS and ESC, which I consider essential.

iluvmysephia1

with ABS but not with ESC that has all the other things you want? This new world order Optima is a great car. I had it on my short list before I "opted" for a '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS instead. Pardon the pun...opted--Optima--get it?

I won't belabor my disdain for absolutely needing ESC on a modern automobile...although most feel a "modern" rig should have ESC, I disagree but agree to disagree to agree that ESC is not really necessary. Yikes, that was more tiring than it should have been. :sick:

elroy5

our two "self -professed car enthusiasts" who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than roam these boards and make uninformed disparaging comments about cars they have never owned !!

Did I say I owned a current Optima? My sister does own one, and gave me her opinion. She said it didn't measure up to the current Camry or Accord quality (specifically mentioned the seats which I agree with after sitting in it). If you don't agree with her opinion, YOU don't have to. She did buy one anyway, so obviously it was good enough, and fit her budget.

backy

On the '08 Optima, ABS and ESC are always optional and come together in a package. And you can't just get a base LX or EX with that package--you have to get other stuff too, e.g. the $1000 Appearance Package on the LX I4. It's ridiculous to me that in 2008 an important safety feature like ABS is optional on a mid-sized family sedan. And that ESC is so hard to get. In all the checks I've done of inventories around my region, I only once found a few LXes with ABS/ESC and that was 500 miles away. A few days later, those were gone. So buyers obviously want those safety features. Why Kia doesn't ship more Optimas here with ABS/ESC is hard to fathom.

thegraduate

I was who brought up the Camry; it gets the same mileage as the '07 Jetta 2.5, yet has 118 more horsepower.

And, so what if I'm special?

jeffyscott

Not that I have "professed" to be anything, but it is possible to form an opinion on a car after driving it 950 miles in a week, despite not being the owner of the car.

CR mag also made the following comments about the Optima: Although it has a supple ride and secure handling, the Optima isn’t particularly agile and The Optima’s handling is competent but not sporty...the steering is responsive and reasonably weighted but short on feedback.

mickeyrom

Odd that I got no notification of your post,but did of the last one.There seems to be a common problem with this site.....ANYWAY....I started this thread because nobody else seemes to. As far as sporty handling..well,this car was not designed for Le Mans, but for driving in town or the interstate highways. I have ridden many miles in my friends Jag, about the same size car,and find the Optima's ride superior although there is a bit more lean on curves. Of course my car cost about a third of the price of the Jag.It also has all the conveniences and gets them as standard equipment.It lacks only the wood trim and the big price and of course the snob value.I have over 20K miles now on my Optima EX so It is pretty well broken in.I have NEVER owned a car that was as trouble free during the first 20,000 miles.
New cars that I have owned are 1967 Plymouth Belvedere,1968 Plymouth Beledere,1969 Chevy Towmsman,1970Ford LTD,1971 Chrysler,1973 Plymouth Sebring,1980 Toyota,1986 VW Jetta,1994 Plymouth Voyager and last the 1997 Chrysler Town & Country LXi,which was my "dream" car and I still own.None of these came close to the quality level of trim, or reliability of the KIA I own now.Of course,only time will tell if it will last as well as my MOPARS which were the best of the ones I owned in the past.The only two that I owned which I kept for over 140K miles were the 1994 Voyager and my Town and Country.So far, I give the KIA a solid 10 rating,and I never could have given that good a grade before.

pat

I got no notification of your post

I assume you are talking about an email? If you are signed up for email notifications for any one discussion, you get one email when the first new message is posted since you last read the topic. You won't get another one until you've read the topic again, no matter how many posts are made. (And of course you have to read the topic logged in so that the system knows you've read it.)

Does that make sense?

oldcem

I currently own one of the Jags you speak of and have driven Kia Optima rentals as well. You neglected to mention that the Jag is all-wheel drive, and, is far more capable in foul weather than the Kia is. Don't know what your friend paid for his Jag, but, mine in 06 cost me about the same as a comparably equipped Honda Accord, even with my 100K extended factory warranty. Enjoy your Kia, but, drive your friend's Jag in a snowstorm/ heavy rain sometime.

Regards:
OldCEM

plekto

I take issue with your conclusions abour reliability ratings. To start with, if you look at the consumers report ratings, they report problems by model year; and very few 1 or 2, year old cars are used. The J. D. powers IQ survey rates new cars during the 1st 90 DAYS OF OWNERSHIP. So, yeah, the surverys tend to be a pretty darn indicator of reliability.

I wasn't talking about JD powers but how people in general view a maker's reliability. There's more than a few people for instance that insist that a BMW is best leased since there are a plethora of ills that they suffer at 8-12 years. While they may do okay during the first few years, this "beware of a used one" reputation that they have with the general public really affects their overall image.

VW is hardly any different. For some reason the things just don't wear very well as they age.

mickeyrom

If you think the Optima has a soft ride,you must drive a Vette. It is anything but.I actually wish it was a little softer.

mickeyrom

I read the posts every time I am notified of a reply to the subject .I get some e mail notification,but only intermitently. :sick:

mickeyrom

Thanks...it really is amazing how much distain,almost hatred the humble Optima can attract.I think it's funny.I had no idea,it's like a Sox poster on the Cub forum.I stand by my comments,and I did not like this car as well as I do now after the first 900 miles,but once you get familiar with the Optima, and see it's good qualities,I think it is as good as almost any car in it's class.

m6user

A couple of people didn't care for the Optima and all of a sudden there is overall disdain....even hatred???? That's quite a chip to be carrying on one's shoulder.