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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    How can you not consider the mountain of evidence, which is track record for 20 years, as not being evidence that has piled in????

    I just don't get it.

    Again... if you we're forced to bet on sports, wouldn't you pick a team with a good track record lately (New England Patriots) than one who has been spotty lately (Chicago Bears)?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    Since the vast majority of Camry's sold aren't the V6 model, this reduction in sales (should it occur) will have little effect on the bottom line.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    There is a difference between making a judgement that..."this new camry is likely to be reliable" and an organization such as CR putting a "recommended" label on a car using different criteria for different manufacturers.

    What need was there for this, anyway? It's not like the readers are unlikely to come to the reasonable conclusion on their own that "this new camry is likely to be reliable". It was a dumb move on CRs part when they decided to do this a few years ago and it sure did not take long for them to get burned by it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    if you we're forced to bet on sports, wouldn't you pick a team with a good track record lately (New England Patriots) than one who has been spotty lately (Chicago Bears)?


    Following that logic you should be picking the Bears every week for they did go to the SB last year. ;)

    How can you not consider the mountain of evidence, which is track record for 20 years, as not being evidence that has piled in????


    Because it is circumstantial evidence at best. Meaning nothing has been proven and CR should face that fact and not recommend a vehicle until they know more about it. Even when Honda was having tranny problems CR never flinched when making recommendations as far as I know.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    Well, since the model with all those doo-dads has no proven long term track record, I'd anticipate lots of headaches from lots of problems and having to deal with LOTS of warranty issues and trying to get them to honor the warranty.

    NO THANK YOU! I'll take the problem-free longer lasting model! So in 5 years when your onto your next super stainless steel Fridge, I'll be just breaking mine in for the next 10 years.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    The Camry with 4 banger doesn't need a warranty as far as I know.

    More standard equipment with longer warranties means more warranty usage and headaches to me.

    Also, and most importantly, in the 90's and early 2000's even, the Camry did sell, for the most part, on being bulletproof basic transportation. Now with the new redesign, they have a state of the art drive train (V6) and one of the fastest midsize cars ever made.

    The thing can smoke the majority of 3 series BMW's in the dust!
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    I think they've been doing it for eons, and they've rarely been burned. In fact, they are almost always right, Ridgeline, Prius as examples.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    Following that logic you should be picking the Bears every week for they did go to the SB last year.

    Ha... well.. The Bears were great last year, but what did they do the year before? what are they doing this year? Still spotty if you ask me. Inconsistant would be another term I'd use.

    However, with NE, you could pick pretty much any game any year this decade and come out with a winner. Very consistent.

    Honda and Toyota-like.
  • mz3smz3s Posts: 17
    "The thing can smoke the majority of 3 series BMW's in the dust!"

    Then turn left.........
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    Yes, the Camry is a straight line racer car.... drag race car.
  • Well, since the model with all those doo-dads has no proven long term track record, I'd anticipate lots of headaches from lots of problems and having to deal with LOTS of warranty issues and trying to get them to honor the warranty.

    NO THANK YOU! I'll take the problem-free longer lasting model! So in 5 years when your onto your next super stainless steel Fridge, I'll be just breaking mine in for the next 10 years.


    IIRC you have an Audi A3, right? So that perceived Toyota reliability didn't even entice you to get one. I think that might adversely affect your argument.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,330
    Well, I'll tell you what, CR had a lot to do with influencing me to take the plunge with a German-make, particularly Audi.

    Audi has shown consistent and significant continual improvment over the last 5 to 7 years in dependability and reliablity according to CR's charts and information. Audi has continually distanced itself from VW as an independent division that has taken CHARGE of Quality Control and the results show a marked gain for their efforts. Audi has widened the gap between them and VW in CR. If it wasn't for that committment to quality demonstrated by both their promises and words, but also their numbers and results, I may have not purchase a virtually problem-free 26,000 miles later A3. The A3 has been "great" and I have not had to make unscheduled dealer visits nor tow truck pickups. I haven't experienced any electrical gremlins or hiccups.

    Also, my parents and my own (and as I was a kid in it) experience with a '87 VW JETTA led me to believe that German cars were built much better than American ones. The Jetta while far from perfect, was no lemon, and it reached 100,000 miles before becoming way too expensive to keep running.

    My friends experience with a used BMW that he kept for quite a while problem-free also solidified my jump from Toytota/Honda.

    But you should know, my second runner-up choice to the A3 was the RAV 4 V6, and it was a close contest. Had Toyota ramped up availability quicker, and more widely, and not overpriced it a tad, I'd probably be driving a RAV 4.

    Honda didn't make anything with a hatch/wagon sporty design that was bigger than a subcompact, so they didn't meet my needs. Toyota doesn't have anything truly sporty right now. Out of all the vehicles I considered, the RAV 4 was the biggest, roomiest, and probably least agile (except if you get the Sport trim maybe) of the group, while the A3 was certainly the quickest, fastest, best handling of the group (and the smallest), but it's cornering ability is spectacular with the sport option.

    Also, Audi, by far and away, stuffed some seriously modern technology such as the DSG true manual-amatic tranny, and direct injection turbo motor. Most automatics are just autos you can shift manually, whereas DSG is more of a manual you can shift automatically. The proof is in the pudding with better 0-60 times and better gas mileage than the 6 speed manual offers.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    There is a difference between making a judgement that..."this new camry is likely to be reliable" and an organization such as CR putting a "recommended" label on a car using different criteria for different manufacturers.

    That is where you are wrong, IMO. CR does not use different criteria for different manufacturers. If any other car had a 15-20 year history of reliability, it would also be recommended because of "predicted" reliability. Case in point the Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    That may be Honda’s grade logic at work. The transmission selects a lower gear on an incline. In my 1998 Accord (and TL), the only way to tell that it did is to keep an eye on the tachometer. On level streets, the transition seems to happen around 40 mph, Hondas don’t seem to use the top gear until past 35-40 mph (I find that interesting, and was going to discuss it in EPA fuel economy rating related threads).

    Going uphill, touching throttle will not do anything (unless you demand more power then it will go down another gear or two but never the taller gear). Going downhill, however, I’ve heard, grade logic (and the engine braking that comes from it) gets cancelled if you use the throttle. This will select the taller gear and the rpm will drop (by about 30%, or whatever the difference in ratio is).

    Something I do find interesting is that the tachometer is reading lower than I would expect it to, at 45-50 mph (in either third or fourth gear), unless 1996 was geared taller than 1998. In my 1998, 50 mph would correspond to about 1900 rpm in fourth.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    That's just it buddy, the car IS geared shorter than the 1998-2002. The drop in RPMs to 1500 or so at 50MPH is well below its normal operating RPM in 4th gear (its usually right at 2000 RPM at 50). It is in 4th gear the whole time in that video I posted. Third gear would have it well over 3,000 RPM at those speeds. The torque converter is also already locked up. It isn't grade-logic because it never leaves 4th gear.

    Let me be really clear.

    Under normal conditions (flat road, not accelerating) at 50MPH, the car is in 4th, torque converter locked-up, car running 2,000 RPM.

    Go down a hill with no throttle, the RPMs are still around 2,000 RPM. Tap the throttle lightly (less than 10%) and let back off, and the revs will drop siginificantly and hold until you push the gas again.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Go down a hill with no throttle, the RPMs are still around 2,000 RPM. Tap the throttle lightly (less than 10%) and let back off, and the revs will drop siginificantly and hold until you push the gas again

    That is grade logic at work. The car already selected third gear, and when you tap the throttle, it cancels the logic and transmission shifts into fourth.

    I can't feel fourth to third gear shift in my Accord when grade logic engages. The only way to tell is to keep an eye on the tach while the condition is right for grade logic to show up. Like I said, this will happen on an incline at speeds above 40 mph. On level ground, you might see something like you do on an incline as your car either speeds up past (about) 40 mph or is slowing down to below 40 mph (this seems to be the magic speed in my TL, below which, I cannot select fifth gear, and the car will only use the 1-4 gears). See if you notice this in your car too.

    While drop (or gain) in rpm can be explained by above which is embedded in transmission logic, the lower rpm can't be. Do you have gear ratios (and tire size) handy? But ~1500 rpm in fourth seems low (which, coincidentally, is something you would see in fifth gear in the new Civic between 45-50 mph since it is geared very tall).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I can't feel fourth to third gear shift in my Accord when grade logic engages.

    Heh, I CAN! The trannies in the pre-1998 Accords are pretty "firm" in their shifting. Not very smooth at all. Trust me, I've been driving this car for five years, I can recognize the grade logic working in a downshift (not trying to sound patronizing). The car never shifts gears. Its as if something disengages, like when you engage a clutch when in gear.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    You are comparing Honda and Toyota to the Patriots. Does that also mean that they are dishonest like Bill Belicheat?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I think it is disengagement of torque converter that you're noticing. If you step on the throttle, it goes back up to the expected rpm, right? (In my Accord, it happens at lower speeds, but then, I haven't paid close attention going downhill at speed).
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I think it's just the way Honda transmissions work. The engine will go all the way down to almost idle speed while in gear. Most automatic transmissions will downshift before the rpms get that low. It feels like the transmission goes into neutral, if the rpms are at the certain level.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No, it's not the level of shift bud. The RPMs drop LOWER THAN TYPICAL when coasting downhill after tapping the throttle. I STILL don't think y'all are getting it...

    It's not that the tranny is holding a high gear longer, it's that the engine is running lower RPMs than the gear ratios specify when under those conditions i mentioned previously. 60MPH at 1,500 RPM in my 4-cyl Accord which is 500 lower than it runs when running normally. I took a video tonight of it in my 2006 EX 4-cyl Auto. You can see it runs 1,200 RPM at over 50 MPH. This is not a typical gear ratio (it should be at 1700 RPM).

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=5dsg7h3-kMY
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The engine will go all the way down to almost idle speed while in gear.

    I meant to add, that my Accord will drop from fifth to fourth gear by 35MPH at the very slowest, sometimes sooner. At that point, in 4th gear, its still only running 1,500RPM
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Because you are going downhill, the car can be traveling faster than the engine is pushing it. In this instance the rpm will be lower than the speed would normally indicate on flat ground. Most automatic transmissions will not do this, from my experience. Most automatics will effectively engine brake, even in top gear. The torque converter is probably not locked, when this happens, since the wheels are allowed to travel faster than the engine rpms suggest.

    Does that sound even close Grad?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    It ALMOST goes over my head, and it almost makes sense, but the fact that there is a noticeable drop in RPM (300-500 within a second sometimes) instead of just a big increase in speed. The speed may never change, but the RPMs do. It happens on off-ramps all the time; trying to slow down, I can barely carress the throttle once and send the RPMs down by 500 or so. They hover at 1,000 from 50-35MPH until it finally downshifts to 4th, sending revs back to normal range.

    I think I've come off as rude; I'm not trying to be, just trying to come up with an answer to this phoenomenon. If I've been short with anyone, I do apologize. Y'all have done nothing but try and help! :)

    Have you guys tried doing this in your cars?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Have you guys tried doing this in your cars?

    The next time I'm on a long bridge, I'll try it. Hills do not exist around here. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Sometimes, a hill isn't necessary. Decelerating from 60+ MPH coasting, then tapping the gas quickly only to coast again, can cause this sometimes as well.
  • I am glad you found a vehicle that meets your needs. I do find it intriguing though that after being such a fan of Toyota or Honda, you bought a German make. It was very interesting to see the vehicles you were considering.
    I think the vehicle attributes I hold dear are very different from the ones that you were seeking and I have a better understanding of where you were coming from.

    In looking for a small/midsize wagon, did you look at the Legacy at all?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Have you guys tried doing this in your cars?

    I've been trying, but the proper conditions have not occured for me yet.

    Did you see the discussion on fuel use (or lack thereof) when coasting in gear vs. in neutral on the "future of the manual transmission" discussion? I don't know if that has any connection to what you are seeing, but a minimum rpm figure of about 1500 came up in that unresolved discussion...so I wonder if there is any connection.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Probably not. 1,500 RPM occurs at 50 MPH. At different speeds, the RPM drops differently. Today, on my way to school, I managed to make the (1996) car do this at 65MPH (it dropped to about 2,000RPM, when at that speed it should be right at 2,500-2,600).
  • colloquorcolloquor Posts: 482
    I don't know if anyone's posted this link to an AutoWeek overview of the new Accord. If it's already been posted, I apologize.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/FREE/310170003/1532/- FREE
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