Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Midsize Sedans 2.0

1216217219221222738

Comments

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,958
    I guess tonight could be our Crew World Series party since last night's game makes me think there's a slim chance the Series might not last until next Thursday! :P

    The Subaru Crew Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Accord History

    1985 Honda Accord
    Wheelbase 102.36 in
    Length: 178.50 in
    Width: 66.92 in
    Curb Wt. 2200 lbs

    2008 Honda Accord
    Wheelbase 110.2 in
    Length: 194.1 in
    Width: 72.7 in
    Curb Wt. 3300 lbs

    2008 Honda Civic
    Wheelbase (in.) 106.3
    Length (in.) 176.7
    Width (in.) 69
    Curb Wt. 2700 lbs

    Wow! The Civic is now nearly the same size as the Accord used to be.

    How large is large enough for a midsize car? Is the current Accord and similar size cars too small, too large, or just right?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    See what happened with Focus. It had a high predicted reliability when it first arrived, right?

    Predicted by whom? Not by CR. They would never have predicted high reliability for a brand-new model from Ford, back when the Focus debuted, or now. But with Ford improving, maybe they'll get the "magic pass" sometime in the future.

    A prediction is only good if things remain fairly constant. With Toyota's reliability falling off (several indications of this besides the trouble with the V6 Camry), and given they have been a leader in reliability for many years, it's just not a good idea for anyone to predict high reliability for a brand-new design from any car maker these days.
  • I agree with that too. The only thing is it is easier for her to get in a car that's higher up. My aunt (who has an Odyssey and is pining for a CR-V - she thinks they are "the cutest thing!")wants her to test a CR-V. That may be a good idea.

    The CR-V might be a lot higher up. I definitely remember having to step up to get in. You might also look at the Suabrus. The Outback models have slightly different suspensions and silly tires and wheels that make them a little higher to help egress. I think my mom is leaning towards one of those.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Predicted by whom? Not by CR. They would never have predicted high reliability for a brand-new model from Ford, back when the Focus debuted, or now.

    Go back a few posts and you will see someone posting Focus being rated high initially by CR (in 2000). Those aren't my words, and since I don't have subscription to CR, can't validate that either.

    That said, do other cars get predicted reliability ratings from CR? Or, was it limited only to Camry?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    1985 Accord was a subcompact to barely a compact, not a midsize. Do you think that size would sell today in a family sedan? How about the engine?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Focus as a car was and still is rated highly by CR. But not in terms of reliability. Predicted reliability is a separate assessment from how they rank a car vs. others.

    You can find CR at your local library and see how it rates cars and reports on predicted reliability (no, it's not just on the Camry)--no subscription to CR is needed.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    1985 Accord was a subcompact to barely a compact, not a midsize. Do you think that size would sell today in a family sedan?

    Using the Civic which is now 1985 Accord sized as an example then yes they sell, and yes they are used by families.

    What size do you believe is required for "family" use? For the purpose of this discussion, using a family of four as a standard.

    Midsize car such as Malibu or Camry? Are they too small for four North Americans? :surprise:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If Accord were to sell in Civic volume, Civic would be selling in Fit volume, and Honda would be owned by another company. Thats the reality. Here is more.

    Fit is somewhere between the first Accord (about half foot shorter) and first generation Civic (about half foot longer). Civic is about the size of an Accord from 25 years ago. If you think these two sizes are sufficient for American family sedan duties, then you need to look around. Accord outsells Civic and Fit combined.

    Is there an automaker that you know would gladly dismiss one of its midsizers and make a living by selling subcompact to compact cars for family vehicle duties?

    IMO, a car with good room for four, and decent cargo room makes for a good family car. It doesn't need to be as big as Taurus. And it cannot be Civic-sized either. Cars like Mazda6 are borderline acceptable. Take an average, and you just might find solid offerings from all automakers.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    As a family sedan, Accord is okay at where it is - borderline between midsize and large sedan. However, it shouldn't keep growing with every iteration IMO, where is it going to stop? Civic can go up to the lower end of the midsize category since Honda now has Fit to take care of the small car market.

    The only way to stop this trend is for us American to stop getting fatter and fatter. :surprise:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,740
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?

    It sounded like all new Toyota models were given the benefit of the doubt in the past, not just the Camry. I would assume Honda gets the same treatment but can't confirm that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Looking at the Odyssey minivan's reliability (typically reported as average), I'd assume otherwise. Just my opinion; I could be wrong.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I would assume Honda gets the same treatment but can't confirm that.

    Honda does for the most part. They recommend almost every new vehicle they put out. When the RDX came out, it was recommended ASAP.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Looking at the Odyssey minivan's reliability (typically reported as average

    Maybe because the 2nd gen Odyssey's were totally inconsistent, and had the faulty transmission bug. I don't know if the 3rd gen's have been much better. However, an Odyssey is still better then most van's.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?

    Yes, several. The easiest way to see this is look at the April "auto issue" (at your local library), and there's a bunch of tables that show both CR's reliability "verdicts" of the car as a used car, and their predicted reliability for the car as new. Looks like CR is going to publish an update in their next issue, based on results of their latest survey. This is the survey in which the Camry V6 took a hit. I posted the best and worst family cars from that update a few days ago.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    What I would like to know is which (new) cars get high marks on predicted reliability that is not a Toyota (or Honda, if you prefer). Aren't there any? Haven't there been any?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    As I just said, I posted this info a few days ago (6464). For your convenience, here's a copy/paste from that post:

    Most Reliable-listed in ratings order, starting with the best score
    Toyota Prius
    Honda Accord (2007)
    Hyundai Sonata (4-cyl.)
    Toyota Camry Hybrid*
    Ford Fusion
    Mercury Milan

    (* means rating is based on one model year)

    These are the family cars (CR's classification) that are the highest scoring in reliability, based on CR's latest survey. All but the Accord are the same designs for 2008 as for 2007. I think CR gave the Accord a high predicted reliability rating for 2008, even though it's a new design. We'll see if that comes back to haunt them, like when they said the 2007 Camry would have high reliability, and the V6 models didn't measure up to that prediction based on the survey results.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    You know Hyundai targets value with Sonata. I think it is getting redesigned next year(?). If I were to ask you, would you say (predict) that it will continue to target value? What criteria did you use?

    Next question. When Hyundai launches Genesis, do you expect it to target value?

    Back to reliability. Assume that 2008 Sonata does well in reliability score. If CR puts predicted reliability on 2009 Sonata as recommended, it will not be something unexpected to me. But, I must ask, would you then say that they are showing bias for Hyundai by putting recommendation on a new model?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    I think Hyundai will increasingly highlight the quality and reliability of its vehicles such as the Sonata (note it's now the #2 mid-sized sedan per CR in reliability, behind only the previous-gen Accord), while it continues to emphasize value compared to brands like Toyota and Honda. You asked for my prediction, my opinion, and that's it. Why? Simply, why not use all the weapons at your disposal in a war, instead of just one?

    Genesis isn't a mid-sized family car.

    Since the 2009 Sonata will be a refresh (e.g. new front fascia, new dash, tweaks of existing engines) and not a redesign, I can see that a reliability recommendation for 2008 would carry over to 2009. But when the Sonata is redesigned (2011 or 2012 MY?), then I would hope CR would wait to see how the new design holds up--just as it should have waited on the redesigned Camry, and the redesigned Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Since you conveniently avoided answering my questions directly, I should be able to extrapolate your responses based on your post. Let us see:
    The question was: “If I were to ask you, would you say (predict) that it will continue to target value?”
    The answer seems to be a big yes. The long first sentence in the first paragraph highlights this. The short ones that follow are all about utter avoidance so I will leave it at that, for now.

    The complementary question was: “What criteria did you use?”
    Your response highlights an opinion, based on the past. So, you predicted something in the future based on a trend from the past. Did I get that right?

    The next question: “When Hyundai launches Genesis, do you expect it to target value?”
    Your response to this is another example of avoidance. You didn’t have an issue talking about Focus in an earlier post in this thread, why has size become an issue now? I’m taking another big “yes” for your answer, which will be along the lines of your response to the first, again, based on the past. If you disagree, let me know.

    The question: “If CR puts predicted reliability on 2009 Sonata as recommended, it will not be something unexpected to me. But, I must ask, would you then say that they are showing bias for Hyundai by putting recommendation on a new model?”

    You didn’t want anything to do with the word bias here and understandably so. But you do seem to understand the point of credits getting transferred from an older Sonata. Then you go on to say about “waiting more”, which says nothing about “projected” reliability now does it? So, to answer the question you should have just said that you don’t want to see CR recommending Sonata based on recent history. Why didn’t you?

    If you don’t believe in projections, don’t. And you might as well refrain from making a point on it. But you did. So, how is this different from what CR is doing? Or, are we jumping on CR’s throat for it being “fairly biased”? ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    If you're just going to insult me when I make an honest attempt to respond to your questions, don't bother to ask me any more questions. Especially questions that are based on faulty information or assumptions.

    If you want to bash someone because they decided not to follow your lead to go off-topic, that's your problem.

    Let us know when you want to return to discussing mid-sized sedans rather than "let's have some fun with backy."
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Insulting? Since you refuse to respond to questions directly, but still want to argue, I had to get around to get your response. So, may I ask you what was your point around this...

    "You asked for my prediction, my opinion, and that's it. Why? Simply, why not use all the weapons at your disposal in a war, instead of just one?"

    And then you complain about getting insulted (somehow). :confuse:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    I think you may have misread my response. I was trying to explain why I responded to the question as I did, i.e. that I saw Hyundai emphasizing quality and reliability in the future in addition to value, because they should use all the weapons they have available to them. I don't know why you would be insulted by that response.

    I am insulted, however, that you would assume that I am trying to evade your questions and would be presumptous enough to write your own answers when you didn't like mine. So don't bother to ask me any more questions--just go ahead ahd answer them yourself; you're very good at that.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Different day...

    Another case when Hyundai (Sonata) does something well, and deservedly so, wait, let's try to see if CR is showing bias in the brand (car) two years from now...
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    2009:

    MMC and stability control finally on the Ford Fusion

    Diesel Honda Accord

    6-speeds automatic replaces 4-speeds on all 4-cylinder Malibus (not just LTZ)

    MMC Hyundai Sonata with new interior (possible nav and bluetooth)

    MMC Toyota Camry (new 4 cylinder engine and maybe tranny fix for V6)

    Restyled Mazda6

    Lots of stuff to wait for.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    I wonder if Toyota would refresh the Camry after only two model years. They typically wait at least 3 for a mid-gen refresh.

    Could 2009 be the year there's another car at the top of the mid-sized heap, by press consensus? Maybe the new Mazda6?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    Not to mention one has to pay an extra $1200, over the Camry LE price, to get the SE. Many other cars come with good handling standard on all trim levels.

    Ahhh, but didn't you see the Lexus Commercial many years ago where they were touting the ability to drive over the wood planks along a railroad track without even feeling it? To some, the ride matters more than handling, and for those people, they seem to wish to be able to run over human bodies without noticing it one bit. Maybe they could drink a scalding hot cup of coffee and not worry about spilling any (without a lid) even while running over a curb? Isolation used to be advertised more.

    Maybe they like those cars like the Camry so much, so that when they do run someone over, since you can't even feel it or notice it, it can't very well be a hit and run can it? :P
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    It's nice that CR admits its error in misleading its subscribers; it's funnier that people still accept CR as gospel.

    I think CR and Toyota will get a pass from readers and consumers since they have been dead-on bullseye bulletproof reliable and spotless for over 15 years with the Camry. CR's predictions seem to be far more accurate than JD Power's advertised "data."
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    the CR and JD Powers conversation in the Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion.
Sign In or Register to comment.