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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Unfortunately, your experience with Chrysler is the exception and not the norm. My dad's 87 Dodge Aries K car was a piece of dogpile. That car would break down without a single warning. That was our first and last Chrysler product. Poor quality is obe big reason ( the other being heavily dependent on trucks and SUV's ) Chrysler is in deep trouble.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Good grief - a 1987 anything was crappy by today's standards. You don't think Dodge has improved any since 1987?
  • Unfortunately, your experience with Chrysler is the exception and not the norm. My dad's 87 Dodge Aries K car was a piece of dogpile. That car would break down without a single warning. That was our first and last Chrysler product. Poor quality is obe big reason ( the other being heavily dependent on trucks and SUV's ) Chrysler is in deep trouble.

    Our '83 Reliant sucked (although it was at least in part to a thirsty Mistubishi engine...doors falling off, door handles falling off, hubcaps flying off, bad roof welds, poor power windows, etc), but the '89 Grand Voyager was great. Three kids learned to drive in that van. It had 2 failures, both covered by 7/70 (trans, steering rack). The vehicle was traded w/150k or so. Chrysler and I are good, the redeemed themselves on that van. I had a 2007 Caravan as a rental in Hawaii and it felt more/less the same (not a bad thing to me). The dash was a bit of a disappointment w/mismatched colors and textures, but no worse than my '07 Accord.

    The '89 Mitsu Galant was fantastic, although it used a 2.0l FI motor vs a 60's tech 2.6l carb truck motor like the Reliant.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    People also have selective memories when they love their car or their brand.
    generally agree with this - for most of us a car is our 2nd biggest investment so therefore, human nature and our egos will want to think that we each made good decisions on a car we purchase. On the flip side of this is when a car really does perform below expectations and those memories will stick with us forever - there is nothing worse than having to make payments on a car that's in the shop.
    That all said, statistics indicate that very few of us new car buyers keep a car long enough that we should have any real serious problems with it. If we limit reliability evaluations to the 3/4 years and 50/60k that most new car buyers/leasers keep any brand car then, of course, the 'buyer' should really expect no mechanical difficulties and/or is covered by warranty (which the buyer obviously tends to forgive for some reason). A number of us, plan to and do tend to keep cars well into triple digits (200k or so) and therefore for 8 or 10 years, a point at which a manufacturer's real ability to produce something better
    is tested. First year or 'initial' quality studies mean nothing IMO simply because it ought to be good and the folks that do these kind of 'studies' are effectively paid for their results anyway. Show me what something does 10 years down the road ( well after the warranty expires). This means a lot. A favorable record in that regard is still heavily biased towards those mfgrs. with names ending in a vowel. If the buyer of an older car is looking for something for his kid's first car - it will likely be a "Japanese" brand if reliability is a primary consideration, and conversely be an "American" brand if cost is a primary consideration. This has been true, for a reason, for maybe 20 years or so. And now magically I'm supposed to spend 25 large because I believe what somebody like JDP says? Show me a Fusion, for example, that is 10 years old and has held up as well as that mid 90s Accord or Camry and then maybe I'll give it a fair shot at my 25 grand! So yes it will be several years before those 'American' mfgrs. see any of my money, at which point, then I have to decide how important it is to me that I support our Canadian/Mexican/Chinese friends or some fellow Americans.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    They sure hadn't by 1996, when we gave Chrysler a second chance after our 1994 was a dealer-queen (it was there for 2 of the 8 months total we owned it because they couldn't fix the problems). The 1996 needed a suspension rebuild and a transmission by 35k miles. We learned out lesson.

    TWICE bitten, four times as shy?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It doesn’t matter to me if Chrysler have actually improved the reliability aspect of their cars, the fact is, the cars themselves leave a lot to be desired. While I have been impressed by the dynamics of 300 given the size of the car, fuel economy and engine refinement have sucked, and I don’t feel the need to have Hemi to feel good about the engine, the 3.5/V6 that I have gotten in rental 300’s can be a lot better.

    The lesser cars have trimmings and fittings that I can’t stand inside. Even when looked from outside. My last extended experience with a (2007) Stratus was not a good one. I drove it for about 3000 miles, with virtually all of it on freeway. 26-27 mpg was it, while the engine lacked passing power, refinement and the car was terrible handling cross winds at higher speeds.

    Just a few hundred miles later, I was repenting having not gone for Accord, which would have been the first time I had managed to spot one, but didn’t go to save $10/day as Avis considered it an upgrade over Stratus. That was to save me about $50 over five days. But with that fuel economy in Stratus, and given that my experience with Accord has always gotten 32-33 mpg under those situations, the Honda would have made up for the premium. Given the choices again, I know it won’t be the Dodge, much less when it comes to actually buying one.

    I am not surprised at all Chrysler has become a huge player in rental fleets. I do like their minivans though, but again, they go against two excellent ones: Odyssey and Sienna.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a 1987 anything was crappy by today's standards - given the 'by today's standards' caveat perhaps - but this is also a very relative thing. That Dodge was (and maybe still is) a whole lot less then what the 'Japanese' were producing at the time. It is this fact that 'gave' the domestic car market to the Japanese in the mid late 80s and early 90s.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Perhaps a better way to look at the situation would be, to list three reasons to choose a new Chrysler Sebring over Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Ford Fusion, Saturn Aura or Hyundai Sonata. In other words, what makes that car better than these others?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    The only point was that you can't judge a 2008 vehicle by what a company made in 1987 or even 1996.

    I was not implying anything about current Chrysler reliability or desirability.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'm not implying anything necessarily about the Sebring either, but what I did say is that whatever quality differences there are, are certainly relative to those cars available at same time whether that vintage be 2008 or 1987. If the market perceives the current Sebring to have the same quality related issues relative to let's say an Accord, then nothing has really changed because back in 87 that was true comparing a 'K' car to an Accord. And many contend that the 'K' (and the minivan takeoff of the 'K') is largely what 'saved' Chrysler back then, and they sold Camcord-esque numbers of them (300-400000/year). But the quality difference even back then is why the American mfgrs. 'lost' the sedan business, it wasn't because the Japanese cars were any cheaper, they were simply better. The fact that an '87 car from any mfgr. is not as good as a 2008 version is a tribute largely to technology and doesn't really have anything to do with Chrysler, in this case, improving their cars - of course, they have - but so has everybody else.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Perhaps a better way to look at the situation would be, to list three reasons to choose a new Chrysler Sebring over Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima, Ford Fusion, Saturn Aura or Hyundai Sonata. In other words, what makes that car better than these others?

    I'll be glad to. I just bought a 3.5L Sebring Limited sedan last month. Before I bought it I test drove a 2.7L Sebring, I sat in a Camry and I also test drove a 3.0L AWD Fusion. I never made it down the road to the Saturn dealer because after I drove the Sebring I knew that's what I wanted.

    I was not impressed at all with the interior of the Camry and taking one for a test drive would have just been a waste of time.

    I wasn't happy after my original test drive of the 2.7L Sebring. The 3.5L, with its 6-speed autostick, changed my mind.

    The 3.0L AWD Fusion I drove had decent performance but it had a ho-hum interior, not much better than the Camry. Plus, there was just too much chrome on the front end for me to like.

    The Sebring I drove and ended up buying had just about everything I could ever want - MyGIG GPS navigation, 20GB HD for storing up to 1,600 songs plus photos. UConnect hands-free voice commands with bluetooth to connect with my cell phone, Sirius satellite radio with real-time traffic interface, front seat DVD player and more. I'm a gadget guy and all this was sort of like a playground on wheels. I even noticed things like the nice, solid sound and feel the door made when closing.

    Okay, in answer to your question...

    1. It had what I wanted. The others I looked at didn't.

    2. My family has been happy overall with Chrysler vehicles and I decided to finally give them a try for my personal vehicle.

    3. I know some people in the auto business and I was able to get an employee discount, which saved me over $5,500 off the $30,000 MSRP, including a $1,000 rebate.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Unfortunately, your experience with Chrysler is the exception and not the norm. My dad's 87 Dodge Aries K car was a piece of dogpile.

    As others have already pointed out, things have changed a lot in two decades. I could write a book about the problems I had with an import Isuzu Opel I had back in the 1980s.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Chrysler interior...

    Yikes!!!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    I'm a gadget guy and all this was sort of like a playground on wheels.

    You've demonstrated that there's lots of different reasons for why someone buys a particular car. Having a "playground on wheels" would never make my Top 10 or even Top 20 reasons for buying a car, but that's why everyone has to evaluate cars based on their criteria and not others'. One thing Chrysler appears to have done with the Sebring is attack a niche market for people who like lots of electronic entertainment features in their sedans. Have fun with them!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    One thing Chrysler appears to have done with the Sebring is attack a niche market for people who like lots of electronic entertainment features in their sedans.

    What about the Fusion with Sync? I thought the Chrysler only had a hard drive for music - does it do more than that?
  • Personally i like cars that are simple. It should be car, radio, GOOD A/C, comfy seats, and maps. I dont care for the Nav system because i live in a suburb, i know all my streets. Put all of that in a reliable package with good worksmanship and i'm a happy camper.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    It looks like the Sebring's hard drive can do more than play music. And, does the Fusion have a front-seat DVD player?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Yes, I would rather have a car that itself is entertaining rather than its media systems providing the entertainment. And any need I had for a nav system has just been satisfied--my company just gave me a cell phone with built-in GPS navigation. Works in ANY car--even if I'm just a passenger. :)
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,341
    Good grief - a 1987 anything was crappy by today's standards. You don't think Dodge has improved any since 1987?

    Absolutely not. Chrysler is the exact same company it was 10, 20, and 30 years ago; that being a company that makes nothing but junk lemon cars :lemon:

    I see no indication that they have ever improved on anything.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Any credibility you had before just went out the window with that blanket statement. I say this, and my family has been burned by Chrysler and I drive a Honda. Your statement is still outrageous.
  • Man I see why you needed those great Audi seats, your back must hurt from that huge chip you carry on your shoulder. :P
  • "Any credibility you had...." It was nil anyhow and, if possible, is now less than ZERO..0...nada...zippo.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    This is not a discussion about other members - focus on the cars, please.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Ok, I checked out the MyGig. It does store music on the hard drive but it doesn't interface with MP3 players except through a generic audio jack - no mp3 player control and no voice control. No bluetooth phone interface. And it does play DVDs on the built in screen - but only while you're parked. How many people watch DVDs while parked in their car and sitting in the front seat?
  • And it does play DVDs on the built in screen - but only while you're parked. How many people watch DVDs while parked in their car and sitting in the front seat?

    How many drivers do you want watching TV while they are driving? or are you thinking about having the video sent to the rear screens?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Well, not me. But apparently it was an important feature for at least one buyer, as he specifically mentioned it. I have a 9" portable DVD player that I use when we go on trips of over a couple of hours with the kids (which isn't that often), and play it back through the stereo system via a wireless connector. The whole rig including the connector cost less than $100. That's one of the reasons I have trouble justifying paying a premium for these features to be built into a car. That Sebring mentioned earlier listed for $30k and even with a huge special discount was just under $25k before T&L. You can get a very nice Accord or Camry for $25k, or even something bigger like a Taurus or Azera.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    No, I don't want the driver watching anything except the road. I was just indicating that I didn't see that as a really useful feature.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Or for 25k, you could get a v-6 mazda6 with alloys, side airbags, a/c, cc, and have 8k in your pocket (just saw an ad in the paper for a 07 Mazda6 as described above for 17k - it was one of those ads that says one only, so I wonder how real it is). It was at a new Mazda dealership though, so I wonder if they are just trying to buy some market share right now... but still a great deal if you can find it!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Yes, there are many deals available for less than $25k. I was pointing out what $25k could buy instead of a Sebring with lots of electronic gear.

    I wonder if that one-only Mazda6 was a demo?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It seems people now buying cars to get hard drive instead of, to drive the car. That said, since I'm wary of anything but solid state when it comes to storage in a hostile environment, are these hard drives solid state?

    After having lost a lot of data (which was recovered at a cost) to a damaged micro-drive in my digital camera, I've been wary of going that route again. No more micro-drives... compact flash works better. With proliferation of HDD based systems, I'm thinking along the same lines, especially in cars where extreme heat, cold and bumps could play a major role in terms of reliability/durability over the life of a car.
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