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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yes intellichoice...maybe a beter name would be ignoramachoice. This is the site that gives a target price of $19,320 for a 2007 Mazda6 that invoices at $19,076 and has a $2500 rebate. Anyone can buy that car for $16,576 or less.

    So yes, I guess if you pay $2744 more than even the feeblesest non-negotiator could get by simply emailing 2 or 3 dealers, then you probably will do better buying an accord or camry.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    cars such as the Mazda6 do still cost less over a 3 or 5 year ownership period.
    well, since I'm not one to keep a car more than about 3 or 4 years, please SHOW ME some sort of support for that because I think that the Intellichoice/Edmund's costs are projected over a 5 year time period. I would suggest to you that there isn't a soul on this forum that wouldn't prefer to save a few grand on a car if that car is a good alternative to something more expensive and it holds that advantage over time. As they say in Missouri - show me?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,370
    >purportedly the Camry's lagging reliabilities are getting boring in this forum

    I will keep posting the facts.

    Since you mentioned the CR dropping the recommendation for the Camry I looked back through and don't find I'd mentioned that in this discussion. I have pointed out other short-comings like rental/fleet sales to bolster sales. It is a hard fact to accept that CR has lowered rating because of problems.

    If you want to talk about ownership costs you must include the hard packs the local dealer puts on the sale of their cars because they are considered by some as the only car they can buy and therefore they must buy. That increases the purchase cost despite any discounts allegedly made. A pack of $999 for mudflaps and couple of other options with a mandatory documentation fee of up to $600 on a sticker in the showroom and who knows what other packs are added after the customer feels commited to a price before they get to the final line. Those don't happen at the dealer for other brands because their customers feel less mandated to purchase the car with high reliability.

    Add on the extra service they mandate under threat of warranty not being honored and you are up to a higher cost of ownership despite the --current, at last-- higher resale value if the owner sells straightout. Tradein values probably run into the "it's 3 years old and there's not much value to them" when the salesman evaluates the trade-in.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    please SHOW ME some sort of support for that

    Uhh, I just did that at length in the post you responded to...read past the first sentence, it's post number 7168...hope that helps.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and while I'll agree that Intellichoice (or Edmunds) can not and do not forecast whatever 'special' is running any given week - it is also true that if the market price is overstated by $2744 (your example) so is the resale value overstated - by a similar amount. Therefore the gross dollars lost (and the cost-to-own) remain about the same. The bottom line is that as soon as Mazda has to start offering $2500.00 rebates - that the chances are that the earlier buyers of that car that didn't perhaps receive the benefits of Mazda's largesse also took a $2500.00 hit. It is never good to see anything you bought go on 'sale' especially if you expect to sell it later. And yes, the 07 Accord was sold for awhile at some very 'un-Honda-like' prices (to make room for the 08s) and those folks that bought that car earlier in the year took a hit as well. Economics 101.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    as often noted in this forum - repairs costs for the most reliable of these cars vs. those repairs for the worst are NOT much different if we are considering new cars purchased and kept 3 to 5 years. There is negligible impact, therefore, on 'cost to own' as none of these cars should have any large repair costs. Again, we are talking cost to own here - not how bad you think that Toyota's reliability is getting.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    As far as Ford's 'new and improved' 3.5 or 3.7, yes the HP would certainly solve the problem, but WHY didn't Mazda do this at the same time they are discontinuing the 270hp Speed6 - or is this simply a case of 'Fordspeak' at its best?

    Originally, the new Mazda6 was supposed to be a 2008, but, Mazda pushed back the launch date here in NA. The new Mazda6 is out in Europe and Japan. The Speed6 was only slated for a 2yr-12,000 unit production run. Since the Speed6 was also built in Japan, in the same factory in Hofu that is now building the new Mazda6 for Japan and Europe, Mazda cannot continue to build it, for they no longer produce that body style. Many think, Mazda will introduce a new Mazdaspeed6 once they finalize r&d. But, for now, they are concentrated on the regular production Mazda6, in which, according to Mazda, this is very big for them for it's showing the "evolution" of the first car to emphasize the "zoom-zoom" philosophy.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Originally, the new Mazda6 was supposed to be a 2008, but, Mazda pushed back the launch date here in NA. I undertsand your point about The new Mazda6 is out in Europe and Japan.
    Hmm - 'supposed to' and 'pushed a launch date back', etc. etc. Is this Mazda speak or Ford speak?. Correct me if I'm wrong - The 'good' V6s (in the 6) are not available anywhere yet (in Europe Japan or the US), true? And nobody knows yet what's going to happen to the poor Fusion (engine wise), true? Why should I believe Mazda/Ford when they can't seem to do anything they promise (except close plants) , I believe the HP deficit in the Fusion was 'promised' to be fixed for the 2008 MY, true?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Sorry, but no. Intellichoice has target price of $19,320 and depreciation at $11,232 leaving resale of $8088. If you take another $2744 off of that it would be $5344. You are not going to buy a 5 year old Mazda6 in good condition with a normal amount of miles on it for $5344, the $8088 looks to be pretty close to reality.

    The 2007 Mazda6 had a $2000 rebate pretty much right from the start (as of November 2006). The rebates on the 2007 Mazda6 did not vary much at all throughout the sales year.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The Mazda6 never had a V6 available anywhere but in the US.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I find having a car that can corner to be more rewarding than one that can go fast in a straight line
    while I happen to agree with you, personally I would suggest to you that that 'straight line' capability is what most drivers will find more useful whether its passing a semi on a 2 lane or merging on the highway that happens to be moving at 80! That old DT engine does leave about 50hp on the table.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Hmm - 'supposed to' and 'pushed a launch date back', etc. etc. Is this Mazda speak or Ford speak?.

    Unsure. Could be a combo of both?

    Correct me if I'm wrong - The 'good' V6s (in the 6) are not available anywhere yet (in Europe Japan or the US), true?

    Only NA got the V6 in the Mazda6. Everywhere else in the world got 4cyl gas and diesel engines, or the 4 cyl turbo. North America will be the only region to get a V6 this time around as well. Remember, gas prices everywhere else in the world are 10 times worse then we have it here.

    Rumor has it that the North American Mazda6 will also have Mazda's Active Torque-Split AWD system, as late availability.

    Why should I believe Mazda/Ford when they can't seem to do anything they promise (except close plants)

    What has Mazda promised that was not delivered? What plants has Mazda closed? You keep forgetting that Mazda does run their company differently then Ford does. They have two different CEO's, they are two different companies. They are not the same. Saying they are states ignorance.

    I believe the HP deficit in the Fusion was 'promised' to be fixed for the 2008 MY, true?

    I never heard that. What does the Fusion have to do with the upcoming Mazda6?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    exactly - so the original poster can talk all about 'the new 6 available in Europe and Japan' but it is still an underpowered vehicle relative to what is available in THIS country meaning V6s. Ever since the MX5/Probe days back in the late 80s and early 90s the Mazdas have always had 'Ford' Vulcan and DT V6s - something that I contend has hurt the Mazda6 ( and 626) in the showrooms. It sure has kept me away.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    I believe the HP deficit in the Fusion was 'promised' to be fixed for the 2008 MY, true?

    The Fusion was never targeted for any new regular engines for 2008. The hybrid was targeted for the 08 model year when it debuted 2 years ago but that got pushed back to 09 (next fall).

    While Ford has had a history of delayed product launches and being slow to market, a lot of the current delays are a direct result of improved management reversing earlier bad decisions.

    As an example, the 09 Fusion was supposed to get an improved 3.0L engine instead of the 3.5L due to supply issues. It has now been confirmed that the 3.5L engine program will be accelerated (more plants converted sooner) and the 3.0L improved engine has been all but cancelled (except maybe for the Escape). This may delay things a bit but the end result will be right.

    You can't expect Ford's new management to fix 10 years of mismanagement in just over a year.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I agree with akirby on this one. I think I was the one who originally reported the rumor of the PIP Duratec30 being slated for the Fusion and Escape. That has since changed and sources on other forums are confirming the D35 for the Fusion in '09 along with a facelift and new interior (Still the PIP D30 for the Escape though as the D35 does not fit apparently). Other engine choices for '09 that are being thrown around include the new 2.5L I4 and a TwinForce I4 making near 280 HP with excellent FE. Those engines along with the gen II hybrid system and the D35 do give the consumers a lot to choose from when shopping for a Fusion.

    I'm not sure why they would offer the TF in anything but an SVT though. Seems like it would steal sales from the D35 copies as it should have more power and better FE than the V6.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    While folks like to talk endlessly about V6 which makes for a fine marketing statement, the reality lies with success of I-4 power. That fact has long been ignored by GM, Ford and Chrysler.

    But there appears to be an end in sight. For the first time, GM seems to be paying more respect to the power of four-cylinder engines, expecting more than half of Malibu to be equipped as such. I also remember reading that Aura will get the I-4 as well. Honda expects 50% of Accord sales to be EX/EX-L trim, then there are LX/LX-P trims. Clearly, V6 is expected to be a niche. Just see how many Camry V6 or Altima V6 you can spot on the road. Usually, if I-4 is good enough, people will overlook V6. Besides, saving an mpg or two won’t go out of fashion. In fact, it will be very much in fashion. Hence the rush to improve EPA ratings by hook or by crook (whether it all translates to reality, remains to be seen).
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well , let's see here - if you really don't think that Ford's financial problems do effect Mazda's ability to to fulfill its promise for a better V6 in the 08 6 (you said so yourself) OR if you don't think that the 6 and the Fusion are close to identical mechanically then I guess the marketing people did their job. I personally have owned a number of Mazdas and even a Probe and have always thought that Mazda has been a good product that has been hurt by Dearborn.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Of course I'm aware that those cars don't offer AWD. THAT WAS THE POINT.

    And that wasn’t the point of discussion around AWD. You might want to revisit "facts". I'm not interested in discussing Ford's commercials.
  • ergsumergsum Posts: 144
    You forgot the most important thing about having "zoomzoom" handling in Michigan - pothole avoidance!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and one would think that with $5 gas on the horizon that even more of these engines will be 4 bangers. When was the last time that 'Detroit' made a good 4 banger, anyway? While they may be paying some attention to things like that now (as you contend) - which 'Detroit' 4 bangers are you going to consider equal to the 'Japanese' efforts today (or in the near future)?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think the Ecotec 2.4L must be pretty good. It's not as sweet sounding as a Honda though!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Four cylinder engines have always been a challenge for GM/Ford/Chrysler. It also shows in their reluctance to compete with entry level cars with smaller and more fuel efficient engines. They will usually slap bigger engines to make up for it and sell power.

    For most part, they still believe in bragging about V8 (and to a lesser extent, V6). The priorities are messed up.

    On the marketing front, even if a V6 manages to deliver as good mileage as an I-4 (the Malibu/Aura V6, based on history, won’t be a candidate for it), people perceive differently. It could be from experience though, because more often than not, what we compare is EPA rating, and not real world fuel economy.

    My recent research into certified used RAV4 revealed some of that. 100% of relatively new RAV4 (from up to 2 years old) were V6 powered. I couldn’t find a single I-4 powered RAV4 in my area. It only indicates to me that many bought V6 powered version looking at EPA rating but were either disappointed or scared to keep it home. They can’t be fleet returns either because, based on my experience, virtually all fleet RAV4 have four bangers.

    Another interesting option on the horizon is diesel. And with $5/gallon, it is only going to get more interesting. And at least one from Detroit (Bob Lutz) is downplaying it and considers it a ridiculous option. IMO, we're looking at history repeating itself.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    if you really don't think that Ford's financial problems do effect Mazda's ability to to fulfill its promise for a better V6 in the 08 6 (you said so yourself)

    I never said why the launch of the new Mazda6 was not on par with the rest of the world, because I do not know. No one does. You are forgetting that Mazda makes it's own money, and spends it own money. Do we really know if Ford's financial status effects what Mazda does in Japan?

    According to rumors, the only real difference from the Euro/Japanese Mazda6 will be the V6 engine. Now, is Mazda going to use the 3.7 sourced from Japan, or the 3.5 sourced from the U.S.? We don't know. Also, did Mazda push back the launch of the 6 so it did not clash with the Accord? That is another rumor. If that were true, it's a good thing they did that. In this segment, you want to make the biggest splash upon arrival. The Accord most certainly did that. Then there is the AWD speculation. With the CX's selling strong, and demand increasing, AWD systems are scarce.

    if you don't think that the 6 and the Fusion are close to identical mechanically then I guess the marketing people did their job

    The current 2003-2008 Mazda6 and Ford Fusion are very similar. Same Mazda platform, and engine choices. The D23 is a Mazda design, and the D30 is Ford's. Tranny's are different as well as suspension/materials/design. The up-comming Mazda6 uses a Volvo platform, recently used in the new Ford Mondeo in Europe. If you have not seen the Mondeo, you need to take a look. Whatta car that is. In Europe, Ford's have a strong reputation for reliability and quality.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Grad- think you will have a hard time finding anybody that doesn't know that Honda makes and has made the best small engines for many years. I was thinking more about a comparison of that Ecotec (or Hyundai's/Chrysler's 'world engine'/Ford-Mazda's 2.3s) you mentioned to the Nissan and Toyota 4 bangers which are not shabby either. I wouldn't even think of comparing a Honda engine (4 banger) to pretty much anything else made on this planet - their expertise in building a small engine is legendary and why they make such good lawnmowers ;) !
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Not sure what your point is, do you expect Mazda to put a V6 in the new 6 for the rest of the world, where no one wants this?

    To me rather than underpowered engines in the rest of the world, I would say that only in the US do over-powered FWD family sedans sell.

    As was pointed out the majority of buyers of the two (maybe 3?) most popular midsize sedans have found the 150-170 HP 4 cyl to be adequate for the job. You have a fixation on V6 and HP that most buyers don't seem to share, in the end.
  • This topic just keeps getting funnier (and more ignorant) as it keeps moving along!

    personally I would suggest to you that that 'straight line' capability is what most drivers will find more useful whether its passing a semi on a 2 lane or merging on the highway that happens to be moving at 80!

    I happen to drive a lot of two-lane roads and highways as part of my commute and with weekend jaunts. Not once, and I'll repeat, NOT ONCE has my V6-equipped Mazda6 let me down when I needed more power, both in the instances you just described, and in thousands of other situations when I needed to get up and go. 50 HP may mean something on paper, but where it counts ON THE ROAD, the difference is negligible at best.

    Ever since the MX5/Probe days back in the late 80s and early 90s the Mazdas have always had 'Ford' Vulcan and DT V6s - something that I contend has hurt the Mazda6 ( and 626) in the showrooms. It sure has kept me away.

    No. What's hurt the Mazda6 in showrooms is the fact that it's 9/10th the size of the behemoth CamCords. Since the vast majority of this segment buys I-4's and avoids the V6, AFAIC the V6 is not an issue, nor will it be when the '09 model debuts.

    I personally have owned a number of Mazdas and even a Probe and have always thought that Mazda has been a good product that has been hurt by Dearborn.

    As proven on this forum about a thousand times now, MAZDA AND FORD ARE TWO DIFFERENT COMPANIES. Different philosophies, different management teams, etc. And also as repeated before, Mazda WOULD NOT EXIST had it not been for Ford purchasing a share of their stock and investing some much-needed $$$$. It's not a marketing "scheme", it's no joke, or "Fordspeak", its FACT. Whether or not you choose to believe it is your choice, but don't bash something that you obviously know nothing about and are too ignorant to understand fully.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    According to rumors = Ford/Mazda speak.
    of course the 'new' Mazda6 would be based on some sort of Volvo platform - Ford already did that with the S80/500-Taurus - not that platform sharing is necessarily bad or unusual - if the platform is good enough - the majority of Nissan/Infiniti models are all based in some degree on what they call the 'FM' platform, and quite successfully. From what I understand Ford Europe is the only wholly owned Ford subsidiary that actually makes money (Rover?) . I don't know much about the Mondeo as I also understand that it is not destined for the US but I do read that it is a helluva car...
  • The up-comming Mazda6 uses a Volvo platform, recently used in the new Ford Mondeo in Europe.

    Besides your dealer connections, where else did you get this info. A number of other sources, including automotive journalists across the pond, say that the '09 6 is based on a revised version of the current platform.

    link here
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    You might want to revisit "facts". I'm not interested in discussing Ford's commercials.

    Just because you can't comprehend the "facts" about how Ford's AWD system works doesn't mean it's a "commercial". The system works as advertised by sending torque to the rear wheels to help handling and to help prevent slip from occurring under certain conditions. End of discussion. Move on.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    Haven't you noticed that the people who complain the most about Ford (and Mazda) are the ones that know the least about them?
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