Midsize Sedans 2.0

deltheking

I subscribe to CR and I could not see where it says about the difference between a black and dot is 3 dealer visits.
Please let me know where I can find it.It would be an interesting read.
Also ,the D3 management-- Rick wagoner gets a bonus of 3.3 million when GM is sinking and in Jan.,he goes to Washington in his private jet and then arrives in a guess what ,,,Lexus,,, Ignorance revealed,I guess.

deltheking

deltheking

Which sedan has the best exterior design?I know each one has a different view and it would be nice to see different opinions.
My ratings would be::
1.Altima
2.camry
3.Accord
4.Fusion
5.Malibu
6.Sonata
And this is just the exterior style...only looks.

backy

The question is totally subjective. Which is why there's almost 12,000 posts in this discussion.

"Better" reliability has to have some frame of reference, e.g. a survey like CR's. "Better service network" also needs a frame of reference; to me, the most important part of a service network is the dealer I take my car to for service. "Better cushy ride" depends on whether a cushy ride is important to the owner. What makes a motor "better" is also subjective: some favor more power, some favor fuel economy, some favor quietness, etc. And as for what buyers are looking for in a car... you know as well as anyone that depends on the buyer.

backy

Again, no Mazda6 on the list, or how about the Passat?

I think the Mazda6 is tops in looks right now, by a large margin. Maybe Altima or Malibu #2. I like the Passat's classic lines also.

backy

I already answered that question. CR does not publish quantitative data behind the dots, but does provide some hints, which I explained in the post you replied to.

lilengineerboy

I subscribe to CR and I could not see where it says about the difference between a black and dot is 3 dealer visits.
Please let me know where I can find it.It would be an interesting read.

Talk of Consumer Reports has been deemed unworthy of this forum by the management, there is a CU/Wards/others rating forum thread to discuss these matters.

,the D3 management
You are at one single entity right now, referencing Mr. Wagoner. I acutally have no problems with taking a private jet, as opposed to the media circus they had to do and DRIVE to DC, because a CEO of a Fortune 500 company has nothing better to do then pussyfoot around congress...the guy makes more in an hour than I make in a week, he sure as hell better be productive; especially as congress uses their private jets to go back and forth between DC and their home states on taxpayer money.

backy

Did you happen to catch the Management's take on talk of private jets, Congress, taxpayer money etc.?

stephen987

I often wondered what those guys in upper management drive--if they drive at all. I did notice that none of them arrived in a midsize sedan. . .

backy

I think the Ford CEO planned to come in a 2010 Fusion hybrid (very fashionable in Washington, and definitely on topic here). But maybe it wasn't available so he used an Escape hybrid instead.

On that note, I am hoping to see the 2010 models such as Fusion/Milan and Camry at the Twin Cities Auto Show in a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see what the crowds are like, and which exhibits, and cars, are drawing the most interest.

oldcem

Have to agree with you there. That's exactly what I've got - only it's the General's 3.5 pushrod V6 with VVT in an Aura. Plenty of power, yet, sips gas like a 4 cylinder. Best fuel economy I ever got over the years was from a 1975 Olds Starfire with the 3.8, a turbohydromatic 350, and 2.56 gears.

Regards:
Oldengineer

kdshapiro

There is very little that is not subjective, even the categorization of questions that CR asks. The answers are subjective. The only way to get somewhat accurate results is to analyze dealer records directly, everything else is an opinion of an interpetation.

So I guess I'm agreeing with your comment, that a lot is subjective, even the performance ratings, which depend on the ability of the driver.

backy

Are you saying CR's questions are more subjective now than they were when they rated the Camry "above average" in reliability for all those years?

Even analyzing dealer records won't give you a complete answer on reliability. Not all service is done at dealers. It's an imperfect world. But there are some objective points of comparison: fuel economy (as long as we use a common standard such as EPA), presence or absence of certain features, price, dimensions and other specs. Just talking about those would be pretty boring though.

mz6greyghost

On that note, I am hoping to see the 2010 models such as Fusion/Milan and Camry at the Twin Cities Auto Show in a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see what the crowds are like, and which exhibits, and cars, are drawing the most interest.

The AutoExpo that was held here a few weekends ago had both a '10 Fusion Sport and Hybrid, and both had a lot of curious onlookers. There was a couple that wasn't thrilled with the re-do, but there were others that liked it inside and out.

Can't say much about the '10 Camry, since it wasn't there, and the spotlight was on the Venza at the time.

IMO even if the Camry was there, I'd think there would still be a bigger interest in the Fulan, since it's more like a redesign compared to the minor facelift that the Camry is getting.

backy

Yeah, I agree but that's about all that's going on in the mid-sized wars until the new Legacy debuts. I also need to look at the Optima redux for 2009--see if I like it any better in person vs. photos. I've seen all the other current models up close.

madpistol

I'd post slightly different in looks. You neglected the '09 Mazda6, and it's a big player in the looks department. This is my list:

1. Mazda6
2. Camry (SE model only)
3. Altima
4. Accord (LX-P and up)
5. Malibu
6. Fusion
7. Sonata

I'm attracted to sporty looking cars. The Mazda6 is impossible to ignore if you're looking for a midsize sedan based on style. Pleasant use of chrome accents, great looking wheels, and typical Mazda accent lines make this car a home run aesthetically. It just OOZES wow factor at all corners.

The Camry SE is hard edged, and I really like the effect. It looks powerful and sleek in the SE trim; the body kit is overdone a little bit, but I still like it. The other trims are incredibly bland though.

The Altima (which I own) has sleek lines, bulging fenders, pleasant use of chrome accents, and dual chrome-tipped exhaust (it's the only car in this segment that has this on both I4 and V6 models.) The only downfall is that the front bumper is a sea of plastic.

The Accord has grown on me, but it seems like it looks like a Saturn from the back (tailights look cheap). The fact that it's HUGE doesn't help it either. I know it drives well because I test drove one when I was deciding on a car, but the overall size just seems cumbersome. Alloy wheels look great though.

The Malibu is pretty, but not striking. Use of chrome is tasteful, but it appears to be "overweight" from the outside. Once again, I've test driven this, and it drives very well. Chevy can make it a little sleeker though.

The Fusion used too much chrome. It's got good lines, even if it does look a little smallish from the outside. The huge chrome grill doesn't appeal to me.

The Sonata is anonymous in all trims. A lot of people like this. I don't. Add a sweeping dash and make the outside slightly curvier, and you've got a buick. Not my cup of tea.

Now, who wants to discuss which one drives the best?

mcdawgg

Camry is getting a new 2.5 L I-4 and 6 speed manual or automatic for 2010, being shipped to dealers this month. Minor cosmetic changes also.

kdshapiro

I'm saying.... to paraphrase a line...subjective is as subjective does.

backy

And cars are like a box of chocolates, etc. Would you like to be less obtuse, or should we just call you "Forrest, Forrest Gump" and move on?

jeffyscott

There is enough data showing that warning lights, tell tales and messages are pretty worthless for anything important in the vehicle.

I'm not sure what you mean. Why do you think they worthless?

Having an oil level sensor, instead of a dipstick would not be worthless to me. Of course, I'd want the thing to be reliable, not just another thing to repair.

jeffyscott

I said the Camry is better than the Accord not just based on CR reports but on lots of other things-- comfort,ride,noise,smooth including reliability.

Funny thing is CR does not share your view on the ranking of the Camry with regard to other factors. In their most recent ranking (Jan 2009), Camry is in a 6th place tie with Sonata amongst sedans priced at $20-25,000, here is their order:

1 Nissan Altima2.5 S (4-cvl)
2 Volkswagen ietta TDI
3 Toyota Prius Touring
4 Honda Accord LX-P(4-cyl.)
5 Kia Optima EX (d-cyU
6 Toyota Camry LE 4-cvl.)
7 Hyundai Sonata GLS (4-cvl.)
8 Volkswagen Jetta (2.5)
9 Kia Optima EX (V6)
10 Chevrolet Malibu LT{4-cvü
11 Mazda6 I Sport (4-cvl-)
12 Ford Fusion SE (4-cvl.)
13 Mercury Milan (base, 4 cyl.)
14 Toyota Prius (base)
15 Saturn Aura XE (4 cyl.)
16 Mitsubishi Galant ES (4 cyl.)
17 Pontiac G6 (base. 4 cvl)
18 Chrysler Sebring (Touring, 4 cyl.)

Most of these are good cars and the choice should be based on personal preferences. In CR rankings, the top 15 there are in the "very good" or "excellent" range. Also note that the trim level seems to have a lot to do with the scoring, as can be seen from the Prius moving from #3 to #14, depending on trim.

elroy5

So I'm not the only one who's not crazy about the Mazda 6. I think most of the 6 is great. The front fenders are just way over-done. It looks like the RX8 front end was stuck onto some other midsize sedan. I like the Passat the best, because it's the only car without a major flaw. The Camry SE is nice up front, but the sides are too flat, and the rear is just strange. The front of the Accord is cool, but the butt is too big. The altima looks good from the side, but the tail lights are over-done, and front end slopes too much. The Malibu looks good from the side also, but the front needs help, and the tail lights scream cheap. The Fusion grill is waaaay too much. An aftermarket grill may do wonders for it. Otherwise, it's ok. The Optima is overall just dull. The Sonata is boring, and has no hint of style. The Galant is too square, and totally forgetable. The Sebring is just a disaster from front bumper to rear bumper. Of course this is all just my opinion, and "looks" are near the bottom of my priority list anyway.

cannon3

Much of this sedan ranking is based upon one or maybe a few journalists opinion. What it comes down to is what you like.
Frankly I like the stacked headlight look of the present Fusion. The rear lights I can go either way. With some colors it looks better than others. Chrome can be toned down a bit here and there.
I don't like the front end of the Camry, rear quarters is one of the nicest I feel however.
Don't like the rear quarters of the Altima. All opinions I could go on for hours.
Choice, this is what is nice. Competition breeds better cars for the consumer and it shows. This segment is the most competitive and it looks like GM/Ford are finally paying attention to what consumers want. Ford came to the party about 10 years later, but, I guess better late than never!

maxamillion85

1) Honda Accord EX and Up: I just find the design to be very very attractive...almost stately looking. In pics it looks disjointed but in person the Accord IMO as a presence that can't be matched in this class. I Love the front end treatment. Taillights could use some touching up (LEDs) but otherwise I think its the best.

2) Tie: Chevrolet Malibu 2LT and LTZ and Saturn Aura XR4 and XR6: LTZ models with the 18s are stately looking IMO. The side profile and front end of the Malibu's best areas, the rear taillamps are a little iffy but its nice overall. The car has a low, tapered "finished" looked to it. Aura takes the design cues a bit furthered. I love the 18s on the XR6, even if they are difficult to keep clean. I also like the front end of the Aura. The side profile is nice too, even if the back end is risen a bit too high. The rear taillights with the LEDs are the best in the class IMO.

3) Mazda6 i/s Touring and Grand Touring: I think if I'd never seen the Euro Mazda6 I'd like our version much better, but the car just seems to long and too big for the design cues Mazda is trying to pull off. I'm not a big fan of the front end...which looks like a poor mouth with braces running across the front (same as altima) and I think the rear c pillars look strange as well. From the side the car almost looks like a hatchback. I do like the rear end though. i T/GT models look tacky with those ugly 17 inch snow flake wheels.

4) Hyundai Sonata SE and LTD: Some call it bland, some call it boring but I find the Sonata to be an attractive looking car. I came to really appreciate it after it got facelifted. Love the LTD models 17s, they give the car an elegant look IMO.

5) Ford Fusion SE, SEL, Sport (2010 models): I had the opportunity to look at the Fusion (and Milan) at the Chicago Int'l Autoshow in Feb. While I love the front end and rear end of the new Fusion I dont think the revised look matches up with the the side profile that well. The car still looks nice but it looks like a design for the late 1990s...

6) Nissan Altima SL/SE: As the owner of an 05 Altima, I am not a big fan of the current generation. Smallish 16 and 17 inch wheels on a bulky, curvy body with a potato looking, poor mouth front end, companied with a hatchbacked looking profile don't work for me. I prefer the hard edge, wedgy shape of my generation.

7) Toyota Camry SE/XLE: SE models look nice enough with the body kit but in XLE form the car bores me to death.

8) VW Passat: It only comes in one trim level for 09 and it's boring. From the side the short wheelbase on long body gives the Passat a tipsy beached whale look that doesn't work well with the 17 inch alloy wheels.

9) Dodge Avenger

10) Mitsubishi Galant

11) Chrysler Sebring

bwia

So far lots of discussion about best looking interior/exterior, handling, NVH and value. But which midsize has the best integrated voice activated GPS Navigation, blue tooth and music system. The best I've seen out there is in the Acura RL but that car is not in the same class discussed here.

Next to the RL, I think OnStar hands-free navigation with Bluetooth in the Malibu and Aura are technologically the best systems out there, although pricey at $300 per year. Don't know much about the Camry's GPS but if it works as poorly as the one in the Avalon then it would be at the bottom of the list.

jeffyscott

I agree on the new Mazda6, the over-grown RX-8 look just does not work for me...and I love the way the RX-8 itself looks. Kind of like how the over-grown Passat look did not work for the Ford 500.

The two best looking mid-size cars in recent years (to me) were the prior editions of the Mazda6 and the prior edition of the Passat.

Were I buying today, all things considered, I'd probably lean toward a Fusion, with modified grill:

akirby

You must not have tried Ford's Sync yet.

tallman1

The best I've seen out there is in the Acura RL

Doesn't Honda use the same navi in the Accord and RL?

lightfootfl

Sorry guys, but I just have to jump in here and say, why not have a gauge that indicates the oil pressure? They used to have those things you know. Actually we can really get carried away and insert good working indicators for just about everything, but most of us wouldn't like the "air plane cockpit" feeling we might end up with... and besides who would actually look at all those things?? Just something else to think about.
Van

superm

I've had several older Mercedes that have oil pressure gauges, but unless you've got a methodical scan method you're 99% unlikely to see a pressure drop before there are also lots of broken engine noises. Much prefer the ECM monitoring pressure and telling me if there is a problem via an audible and visual alert such as is possible on my Passat.

There are times that pressure info is useful, especially as cars get older and/or for people who have turbos and such. But even then the conditions are so relatively rare and there are so few people who would care that I understand why the gauges are gone.

superm

I have a previous generation Passat and have driven a few of the new ones. My next logical car would be a Passat wagon, but it won't happen because...

-Maintenance costs for my Passat are consistently higher than my Mercedes and Volvo combined;
- Reliability is somewhere between bad and ridiculous
- VW as a company has more often than not been awful, but one recent experience (after mine started to catch fire) suggests that might be changing

Also, the current Passat is now only sold in 1 style and the cheapest you can buy is over $30k. Rumor has it that its being phased out, to be replaced with something simpler (and hopefully cheaper) as VW is said to be losing money on the car with its complexity, build cost and exchange rates.

jeffyscott

Oil pressure guage would be fine, but if my choice is between that guage or a low oil pressure indicator light plus a low oil level indicator light (replacing the dipstick), I'd take the two indicator lights.

jeffyscott

I had no idea they had pushed the Passat up that high, though I am sure you could buy for the $27K invoice price and then the 60 mo. 0% financing is probably worth about $4k.

VW is supposed to build a new midsize car for the US at the proposed Chattanooga plant.

robbieg

After reading the posts about which midsize car has the nicest exterior it go me wondering about which car has the nicest interior. In my opinion, this is toughest part of the car to get right. If a car offers a quality interior, I will more likely pay a premium for it. I like the Passat the best, followed by the Altima. Don't really like the Fusion, Malibu or Camry. Sort of indifferent towards the Accord. Actually don't mind the redone Sonota in Limited Form. Sorry haven't really seen the Mazda 6 to compare. Basically, I want a midsize car to look pretty similar to an Audi, which my opinion has the best interior.

backy

I like the Passat's interior too but consider it's perhaps the priciest of all of these cars under discussion. I think the Mazda6's interior is nicely done, also the Sonata's especially in black leather. I like the top-end Malibu's interior but the lower trims look cheap to me. The Legacy's is pretty nice in terms of appearance, but too cramped in back to be practical. Other than that, I don't think any of the cars have stand-out interiors--except for Avenger and Sebring which are standouts in a negative sense.

elroy5

Gauges are much less likely to be noticed by the driver, than an "idiot light" (don't know who came up with that name, but I think they are a good idea). I do my own maintenance, and I want a dipstick, so I can see what the oil looks like. My father's Malibu doesn't have a cap for the radiator, which I also don't like. I take the cap off now and then just to make sure the inside of the radiator is clean and corrosion free (can't tell from the reserve tank).

lilengineerboy

Sorry guys, but I just have to jump in here and say, why not have a gauge that indicates the oil pressure?

While I personally am for that, my concern is that people don't know what it is. I did a research project for an automotive supplier where we were looking at the legibility of instrument clusters and "conspicuity" of "tell-tales" (or "idiot lights, as they were referred to previously).

We had people drive in a simulator and read the gauges on the instrument cluster. Prior to starting, the participants had to explain the gauges and what each one did. Most people (over half) thought the oil pressure gauge was telling them how much oil was in the engine, or when they had to get their oil changed (or the oil temp). I realize that oil pressure gauges are not so common anymore, so I wasn't totally surprised. I was surprised by the people that didn't know what the coolant gauge was or what it meant. So gauges, eh not so much for the general populace.

As far as the tell-tales, the task was to push the cruise control button when you saw a tell tale come on (red for oil, red for brake, and amber for check engine and coolant). Most of those tasks timed out (it was over 3 minutes without acknowledging the lights). We know they were looking at the cluster because there was a reward tied to speed maintenance, and the simulator was set up to make that challenging.

So short of a big hand coming out of the steering wheel and slapping people in the face, I don't know how to get those that don't pay attention to their vehicles to start.

berri

I've owned a number of D3 vehicles and 5 different Honda or Toyota vehicles. Here's what I see from my experiences owning all of them:

D3 are put together better in that they don't rattle as much and generally have more comfortable seats.

Camcord have all been afflicted with too many rattles, short seat bottoms making the seats less comfortable on longer rides, and Honda has a lot of required maintenance that is very expensive. Honda also needs better noise insulation.

If D3 could put in better parts so their cars were more similar to Camcord out of warranty, I think they could take back the sales crown down the road. But it will take some time for D3 to prove it.

explorerx4

my old mustang has an oil pressure gauge. since i don't start it for months at a time, i do wait until the needle comes up from the bottom before i reconnect the ignition to start the engine. other than that, i think a light is ok.

lilengineerboy

my old mustang has an oil pressure gauge. since i don't start it for months at a time, i do wait until the needle comes up from the bottom before i reconnect the ignition to start the engine. other than that, i think a light is ok.

Yeah but you aren't typical (and I don't mean that in a remotely negative sense). You actually know what it is, how it works, and what it means. You understand that especially with older cars (built to looser tolerances because of the tech of the day), and infrequent starts, oil pressure is important.

I think the best thing to happen to engine durability are those absolutely ridiculous car starter things so you can go start polluting the atmosphere while you are still in your bathrobe. The oil is at pressure and operating temperature (and the catalytic converters are screaming).

thegraduate

Honda has a lot of required maintenance that is very expensive.

Based on what?

Tell me what extra required maintenance Honda has that is so expensive? As a Honda owner with 189,000 miles on one and 45,000 miles on another, I'm just dyin' to know.

bobgwtw

I've used a Garmin for years & it works just fine; accurate, portable - I take it with me when I travel or rent a car - & very inexpensive when compared to the faactory installed units.
I'll trade this summer & no way do I have to spend an extra 2 grand to have a completely satisfactory navi system.

madpistol

Interiors are a different animal all together.

1. Accord- This is easily the Accord's top feature. Even though the dash is littered with what looks like "hundreds" of buttons, it's functional. The interior looks especially rich on dark trims w/ wood accents. The information screen is what people have come to expect in higher-end vehicles, so it gives the Accord a very upscale look inside.

2. Mazda6- The sportiest looking interior of the group. However, some of the materials still seem to be a step below the Accord's. The center dash is much more functional than the Accord's though. I love the sport themed interior and chrome accents. It's large and airy as well. It beckons for you to drive it.

3. Altima (2.5 S w/ black interior)- It's tough to rate the car that I OWN as 3rd, but that's how I feel about its interior. I looks very sporty on the 2.5 SL trim w/ Black leather interior. The carbon fiber accents give it a futuristic flare not found on other cars in this class. The center dash is one of the best in class for layout and functionality. However, other materials seem to be less substantial compared to the Accord. I really wish it looked more like the '09 Maxima's interior. It's got a GREAT atmosphere when driving at night. It's the ONLY car in this class that has rear side reading lights standard. It's very classy.

4. Malibu- This one is also a very close contender. Some weird accents and the absence of a navigation unit are awkward. It uses rich feeling materials, but it still feels like it's a step below the others. In the right color scheme, this car is a standout in interior features and space. However, it doesn't strike me as "right." It already feels old compared to other interiors.

5. Fusion- I have not had any seat time in this car, so I can only tell you what I've experienced by looking at it. The interior is pleasant, but not somewhere I'd want to see every day for 4 years. Functionality is fine, but the "Ford green" LCD screens leave a dated taste in my mouth. Sorry.

6. Camry- At first, I loved the new Camry's interior. Now I loathe it. It's got some very weird color accents, and the seats look so unconventional (they are comfortable though). Toyota tried to depart from their interiors in other cars, but in doing so, it made the Camry seem less inviting than other previous models. The interior looks weird and somewhat uninspiring at night.

That's my list... now which ones drive the best?

bwia

4. Malibu- This one is also a very close contender. Some weird accents and the absence of a navigation unit are awkward .....

What do you mean the Malibu does not have a navigation unit. It does. As a matter of fact it is the most accurate and easy to use system out there. Besides, it goes one step further by allowing you to download and store MapQuest directions to your car making navigation a breeze. Not because the unit does not have a night blinding screen you can dismiss it as not having a navigation unit.

acdii

Toyota goofed big time by not having a dimmer for the center console, instead one dimmer does the dash and center. Twice now I had to turn off the dash lights so I could see where I was going. When it is dense fog, you are blinded by the center console, cant see anything unless the entire dash is off.

jeffyscott

Thanks for the details.

So short of a big hand coming out of the steering wheel and slapping people in the face, I don't know how to get those that don't pay attention to their vehicles to start.

My son's 1996 Jetta has a low oil pressure alarm. Noises like that are much harder to live with than a cute little light on the dash.

Most people (over half) thought the oil pressure gauge was telling them how much oil was in the engine, or when they had to get their oil changed

Many years ago, a secretary in my office told me she added oil whenever the "oil light" came on. I not sure, but I think she also never actually changed the oil.

stephen987

A friend of mine who is not mechanically inclined once told me that she viewed the oil light as a sign that the Oil God was jealous and required an offering. So she poured a 10W-40 libation into the engine whenever the light came on.

The car, a '75 Chevelle wagon (derived from what was then considered a midsize sedan), lasted 240k miles before bursting into flames in the middle of an intersection in northeast DC. I think the Oil God must've been displeased with her offering.

jeffyscott

D3 are put together better in that they don't rattle as much and generally have more comfortable seats.

Camcord have all been afflicted with too many rattles, short seat bottoms making the seats less comfortable on longer rides...

The short seat bottom, requiring one to perch rather than sit, eliminates the majority of vehicles from my consideration. However, IMO, only Ford has reliably long enough seat cushions. All the recent Chevrolet vehicles that I have sat in have the short seat cushion syndrome as did the Sebring. Pontiac seemed a little better, especially in the G3 (odd that their smallest cheapest car seemed to have the longest seat cushion).

Toyota is hopeless in this regard, Honda has seemed fine to me, though at the auto show I thought maybe they had started downsizing. Mazda was good, but they seem to have down-sized in the new 6 and 3.

At the auto show the two cars that seemed to have the best seats were the 2 door Focus and the new 2010 Fusion. The outgoing Fusion was good, but the new one seems even better.

robbieg

You are right on about the Legacy's back seat. We bought one before kids and didn't even notice how small the back seat was.

I don't like the Malibu's leather seats with two different colors. My other pet peave is about car makers stiching their name on the seats of the car. For example, Infiniti does it.

backy

I'm not a fan of two-tone leather myself but it depends on the colors. One of the Malibu's combos, with some sort of orangish color, is positively garish to me. But another one that is more brown/tan is pretty nice I think.

As for the stitched names on seats, it helps you remember which car you own. "Oh yeah, I have a Malibu!"