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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    But to imply that they lied on purpose just to sell vehicles is preposterous
    now see we do agree on something, the point was that the dealer was simply relaying what he understood from Ford at that time in an effort to get me in a Five Hundred by asking me to delay a buying decision. Points out the value of internal memos and press releases doesn't it? Asking the 500 to do what an Avalon/Maxima (or any of the other cars I looked at) did without a problem certainly was dangerous, I almost got run over in that particular situation I described. And yes it was my fault for thinking that the DT3.0 was even half the engine that was in the other cars, it isn't. I certainly wouldn't have asked the car to do what I did if I knew it was as handicapped as it was, and I would even go so far as to tell you that the better 4 bangers in this group would have done better than the 500 in that situation, I sorry the car was a slug and Ford ought to have been ashamed. If it makes you feel any better that 3 year too late 3.5 when it finally did arrive would have handled that particular traffic situation with more aplomb even to the point of getting me to consider the car much more seriously at the time
    Translating this whole situation into the midsize segment and getting a little closer to on topic, the Fulans (and 6s to some degree) are in the same neighborhood weight and size wise as that Five Hundred and that DT still sounds (and feels) like a meat grinder at high rpm (and leaves mucho HP on the table) especially compared to what else is available in this class. IMO, its well past time for Ford to put the thing (DT3.0) out of its misery, and possibly go ahead and use that 260hp 3.5 (that everybody else has) in the car - in short make it competitive. Then they might actually be able to have 'press releases' that are at least close to true and not misrepresentations.
    I guess by your comments we should now believe press releases and ignore what you are calling 'internal letters' when I would think the opposite should be true. If the unthinkable happened and Ford would have to close its doors permanently, I would bet that the Ford dealers would know it in some sort of 'not for publication 'internal memo, before it got 'spun' into a press release..
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I don't know about the "floatiness", but I agree with you on Accord steering...it just seemed way too light to me in my short test drive...but then I read zzzoom6 saying it was heavy compared to the 6 and I think maybe I am nuts. The mazda6, while better than the Accord to me, is still lighter than I would really like, but I have gotten used to it. I actually liked the heavier steering of the Fusion best at the time I was test driving.

    Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, by light or heavy I only mean the amount of effort required to turn the steering wheel.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    many (most???) people do not have a problem driving cars with similar or slower acceleration.
    true, my real problem at the time was thinking that the 500 was even in the same class (power wise) as the others, I should have known better. And sure the earlier Avalons were in the same ballpark as that Five Hundred - times change and even rich ole Toyota was late 'getting on with program' with the Avalon and the Camry. Times have changed in the midsize segment as well. 3500 lb. is getting to be an average weight for these things!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    And that's the difference between an internal memo and an official press release. You put things in internal memos instead of press releases simply because they might change. You don't want to make a press release and then have to change it later - that's bad PR.

    And saying that any 200 hp sedan is so underpowered that it's actually dangerous is simply ridiculous - stop being so melodramatic.

    You don't have to justify your likes and dislikes - just stop trying to turn them into objective facts.
  • Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing, by light or heavy I only mean the amount of effort required to turn the steering wheel.

    Yeah, that is where I am at too. Also it seems like if the steering is a little better weighted, it provides more feedback about what the front wheels are doing. On the cloverleaf offramp by my house, the old Accord and the '05 Legacy both provide a lot of feedback if I am cooking on that corner, but the newer Accord masks that information.

    In hindsight - to Elroy's comment, yeah when the '93 had MXV4s before the Kumho ASXs, it would squeal quite a bit on corners (but had pretty good snow traction - so maybe there is your trade off).
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yes, that is always a risk when test driving. I once rear-ended an SUV on a test drive, because I expected the brakes (or maybe I should say the tires...as the wheels were locked up) on a protege to work better than they did.

    Umm...hi mr. salesman, we just had a collision in that car we were test driving...:blush:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Times have changed in the midsize segment as well. 3500 lb. is getting to be an average weight for these things!

    Yes and this is partly because the mid-size cars are becoming large cars.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The Mazda3, Ford Focus (Euro) and Volvo s40 were built using one platform.

    A platform does not mean cars are "identical", as captain2 said. A platform is a very basic structure on which a vehicle is built. Vehicles may share platforms, but, in actuality, are very very different from there.

    The Fusion is a stretched 6 platform. A few of the engines are shared as well, like the trannys.

    I stated that before, the 6 and Fusion are very similar. They do not share tranny's. Mazda had their own, and are not shared with any other company.

    The similarities however are not as close as Chevy/Pontiac/GMC

    Those company's build mechanically identical vehicles. Only differences are cosmetic and the way they package or offer options.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I once rear-ended an SUV on a test drive
    now I can't say that I ever did that but I cam (almost) understand I would bet that most of us have a tendency to 'wring out' cars we test drive. I sure do. ;)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yes I would also tend to 'wring out' cars on a test drive. I'll floor it to test acceleration and noise and take corners fast in an area with no traffic, etc.

    I imagine the dealer figured I was following to close and driving like a maniac.
    But when I had the crash I was driving sedately at 30-40 mph on a busy street and the car just took forever to stop...skidded a long, long way. I'm no tailgater either, I allow way more space than most drivers do...in this case I needed an extra 2-3 feet.

    Maybe brand new tires don't have their full traction yet or something...the car had like 11 miles on it after we smashed it.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    Certainly can't blame you for testing the full limits of a car on a test drive. But, you fella's are the exact reason I refuse to buy a new car that has even been test driven. Kudos to dealerships that have special cars dedicated to test driving. That's the best of both worlds . . you get to really test the car, then hop into your new car that has never been abused!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    Why not try passing them?

    Uh, because it's illegal on a two lane road with double yellow lines! And it's also very dangerous when the roads are very hilly and winding. Kind of makes it hard to see if someone is coming the other way. Nice try though.

    Oh I forget, you just can't what with your lame duck engines Enjoy those taillamps.

    Sorry. Don't drive the 6 anymore. Want me to try and pass you with my Mustang GT? Don't worry, you'll only see the taillamps for a second or two then they'll just be little red dots on the horizon. Tends to make the feeling of embarassment easier to deal with when it doesn't last long to begin with. Oh, and I'll even perform that pass with my wife, two boys, and some groceries in the car too. :P
  • "Uh, because it's illegal on a two lane road with double yellow lines! And it's also very dangerous when the roads are very hilly and winding. Kind of makes it hard to see if someone is coming the other way. Nice try though"

    Even if you did try; you wouldn't be able to.

    "Sorry. Don't drive the 6 anymore. Want me to try and pass you with my Mustang GT? Don't worry, you'll only see the taillamps for a second or two then they'll just be little red dots on the horizon. Tends to make the feeling of embarassment easier to deal with when it doesn't last long to begin with. Oh, and I'll even perform that pass with my wife, two boys, and some groceries in the car too."

    I thought we were discussing mid size cars. As for the GT, sure its a powerful car, but its not a part of this discussion. if you do wnat to get into that game, I could take you in your GT with your wife et al in my 330i, your choice of switchbacks. As for taillamps, mine glow progressively, so you will get a chance to observe them. Cmon, this is just 'mine is bigger than yours' stuff. Concentrate on midsize cars.
  • "Well stated, and I fully agree. It seems that some others can't say the same though... "

    Easy preaching - difficult to practice when it comes to oneself. Aren't you the one who called the Camcords 'coma inducing' after clubbing them togehter? Do you think they handle alike? How can you club their ride/handling togehter?
  • 'They may be minuscule to you, but not to me, and to the many other auto journalists and drivers that have tested the Accord and the 6 back-to-back"

    Most testers have said the difference is in favor of the 6 (a majority of them call it small and then pick the Accord as the overall winner). I have never said anything different and have conceded that to the 6.

    However, does that mean that the Accord is a boat and coma inducing?
  • "wow...7 consecutive posts in a row! that's got to be a record...someone's feathers must have been ruffled "

    Just haven't been able to post/view my favorite forum for a long time so checked in last night.

    I have nothing against you being happy with your car for whatever reasons you choose, and I fullt respect your choice. However, when someone comes back and calls one of the cars I loved, a 'coma inducing' car (not directed at you); sure it does get to you. And then I have someone bragging he can pass an Accord in a Mustang GT. Wow, what a revelation!

    Well, good to be back.

    I
  • However, when someone comes back and calls one of the cars I loved, a 'coma inducing' car (not directed at you); sure it does get to you. And then I have someone bragging he can pass an Accord in a Mustang GT. Wow, what a revelation!

    Hey, as they say: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."

    And yeah, I may have bundled the CamCord as coma-inducing, but then again, it's MY OPINION. The Camry (SE not included) surely fits that description. And while I have yet to try out a '08 Accord, I doubt that the larger (and heavier) car can improve on the '03-'07, let alone the excellent handling (IMO) the late '90's had before that.

    So maybe "coma-inducing" is a little harsh, but I haven't taken any shots to the 6 personally...
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    I guess each car gets pegged with a stereo-type. But, some of those stereo-types seem to be born out by the consumer reviews for the Camry and Accord. Take a look -- new Camry owners seem to focus on interior amenities, size and comfort. Of course, so do Accord owners. But, Accord owners also seem to note such things as steering response, engine power, ride and handling quality. Interesting . . . .
  • Even if you did try; you wouldn't be able to.

    I didn't realize you had some special one-off turbo-charged JATO powered version, because if you are talking about the EX 5spd manual I have been driving for the last few months, I think you are having a memory issue after driving your BMW too much.

    As fun as this bench racing "mine is bigger than yours" conversation is, its really not supported either way. In fact, it puts me to sleep almost as fast as the Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Weight adds up quickly for a lot of reasons. It has little to do with physical size of the vehicle itself (which goes by EPA definition). Even a Rabbit can tip the scale around 3200 lb. Saturn Aura goes to 3630 lb and it will be safe to assume it will weight even more if there were additional options to be added.

    Compared a base Accord with MT (LX) with fully featured four cylinder version with AT (EX-L/NAV) might make for a good example. The curb weights:
    Accord LX (MT): 3230 lb
    Accord EX-L (AT): 3433 lb

    That is a whopping 203 lb difference. Just by looking at the spec sheet, I can account for almost 75% of it.
    Larger Wheels: 60-70 lb
    AT versus MT: 60-70 lb
    Moon roof/NAV: 30-35 lb

    Besides these, and while safety features are standard and there is no difference, there is in terms of NVH handling (noise insulation, potentially more advanced engine mount), tweaks to chassis for additional rigidity etc.

    One might think that going from 16” wheels on LX to 17” wheels should not make for a big difference. But it does. In fact, Accord’s new 17” rim is wider (17x7.5) to accommodate P225/50/R17 tire than the 17” rim used in last year’s Accord (17x7) that accommodated P215/50/R17 tire. Equipped with OEM tires, each of the new size weighs 7-8 lb more, and that adds up to 30 lb for that small increase. It might be at least twice that compared to the smaller rim (16x6.5) in LX trim.

    Cars today are also far safer than before. And safety goes beyond just hitting a wall. Complex ways are being devised to accommodate everything from offering greater safety to pedestrians to being able to make colliding vehicle more compatible.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Translating this whole situation into the midsize segment and getting a little closer to on topic, the Fulans (and 6s to some degree) are in the same neighborhood weight and size wise as that Five Hundred

    The difference in weight between a Ford 500 (when it was still named that and had the 3.0 see this link for the weight: link title) and an automatic Mazda6 w/ leather and moonfoof is 340 pounds, which to me is not in the same neighborhood.

    And to me, the engine in the Mazda6 sounds very smooth with a touch of a growl to it (although not as smooth as the Accord or Altima v-6's). Perhaps what you were hearing was different tuning in the 500 or maybe the engine laboring to carry much more weight? Mazda did tweak the engine a bit too, so perhaps that's why your descriptions don't really match what I've experienced. I mean, someone could say that after driving a Honda Pilot they should diss the TL just because their engine and chassis are similar, but I think that criticism would be misplaced because the weights are so different.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    May be getting a little touchy here but I don't ever recall saying or even implying that cars that shared similar platforms were necesarily identical. In fact I said something about a few more inches (stretching) and some different suspension (tighter) pieces talking about the differences betwen the Fulan and 6, Another good example of this might be the M35 and Altima/Maxima which are all FM platofrm cars that even use the same base engine, but the M35 specifically is quite a different car isn't it?
    As long as you seem to be getting on GM for simply relabeling what exactly do you think Ford is doing with the Milan or Chrysler is doing with the Charger. Etc. Etc. IMPO I think the Milan is a far better looking ride than the Fusion, simply replacing some taillights and junking the 'razor blades'. Not to mention the interior which struck me as an upgrade (as in typical for the Mercury nameplate) Again IMPO I think the car to own from FoMoCo in this size class has to be the Lincoln MK if for no other reason than the engine - if only it wasn't so overpriced.
  • "Hey, as they say: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."

    And yeah, I may have bundled the CamCord as coma-inducing, but then again, it's MY OPINION. The Camry (SE not included) surely fits that description. And while I have yet to try out a '08 Accord, I doubt that the larger (and heavier) car can improve on the '03-'07, let alone the excellent handling (IMO) the late '90's had before that."

    Did you read my full post about taking the heat or racing the Mustang? I can damn well stick to my guns in my 330i; GT or no GT. And remember, there is always a faster car out there, no matter what you drive.

    Secondly, you still haven't answered my question - do you think the camry and accord drive alike? And really, when you say an accord is 'coma inducing' with respect to the Mazda 6; you really are in la la land.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I will madmit to never driving the V6 6, but I do understand that there is a degree of 'refinement' there perhaps is missing in the Ford.
  • "I didn't realize you had some special one-off turbo-charged JATO powered version, because if you are talking about the EX 5spd manual I have been driving for the last few months, I think you are having a memory issue after driving your BMW too much.

    As fun as this bench racing "mine is bigger than yours" conversation is, its really not supported either way. In fact, it puts me to sleep almost as fast as the Accord."

    Sorry, a stock Mazda 6 (4 or 6 cyl versions) does not show a set of heels to a comparable Accord. At least not yet. Maybe once the 3.7 Mz6 comes in. Secondly, I was not bench racing; just got someone boasting of a GT in a midsize comparison. As I said before, there will always be a faster car out there; so it makes sense to stay on course if you are comapring similar cars. Third, if an Accord puts you to sleep, anything short of an M3 of RS4 will wake you up; let alone a Mz6
  • Secondly, you still haven't answered my question - do you think the camry and accord drive alike? And really, when you say an accord is 'coma inducing' with respect to the Mazda 6; you really are in la la land.

    Okay, fine, you win! The almighty Accord is superior to every other vehicle out there, from a Ferrari to Yugo...

    Heaven forbid someone in this discussion have an opinion that's NOT in praise of the Accord and Camry, or they be accused of being in "la la land", despite the fact that my hard-earned $$$ goes to buy what I prefer to drive!

    And for the record, I NEVER said that the Accord and Camry drive alike, they IMO don't handle as well as the 6. Whether or not it's "coma-inducing" or not is something for ME to judge FOR MYSELF. If you don't agree, then fine, but stop taking everything so personally and let it go already! :sick:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    And yeah, I may have bundled the CamCord as coma-inducing, but then again, it's MY OPINION.

    We are all entitled to our opinions here. I will agree with you on this one. Maybe I am a bit bias, since I own a Mazda6 4cyl 5-speed, but, I surely do not find it dull, or lacking in the power department. With the say it is geared, especially at higher speeds, the car responds and handles better overall then any in its direct class, IMO. Now, if the 4cyl and V6 are not enough for some, thats why there is a 270hp 280tq engine in the Mazdaspeed6 that is anything but dull...
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    And for the record, I NEVER said that the Accord and Camry drive alike, they IMO don't handle as well as the 6.

    Not to but in to your heated debate, but, it is not a matter of opinion that the 6 handles better then the Accord and Camry, it's a fact, whether he likes it or not :shades:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    May be getting a little touchy here but I don't ever recall saying or even implying that cars that shared similar platforms were necesarily identical. In fact I said something about a few more inches (stretching) and some different suspension (tighter) pieces talking about the differences between the Fulan and 6

    It really sounded like you were talking about the companies (Ford and Mazda) in general, not just talking about the Mazda6 and Fusion/Milan. I now understand what you were trying to say.

    post #7199 "if Ford and Mazda are different companies then why are they producing cars that except for a few inches and some suspension bits are otherwise identical"

    Look at the Saab 92X /92AeroX and Subaru Impreza/WRX..those are relabeled vehicles. Most GM vehicles have been and are relabeled. I was not just picking on GM, I was commenting on what someone said. The "Big 3" in Detroit are known for
    "rebadging" vehicles.

    Again IMPO I think the car to own from FoMoCo in this size class has to be the Lincoln MK if for no other reason than the engine - if only it wasn't so overpriced.

    I think the MKZ is right on par with others in its class in terms of price. I have sat in one, but, never driven. I have heard some pretty good things.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    thought we were discussing mid size cars.

    The Mustang is classified as a mid-sized coupe and therefore competes with, or at least did before, the Accord coupe. If one is fair game then the other has to be too.

    As for the GT, sure its a powerful car, but its not a part of this discussion. if you do wnat to get into that game, I could take you in your GT with your wife et al in my 330i, your choice of switchbacks.

    You might want to rethink that. Unless you have a new 335i, and not a 330i, then you're sadly mistaken. Even a new Accord V6 is faster than your 330i to 60. Handling wise the GT and 330i are pretty much even. I think your thinking of the last gen Mustang or something. I think the new Camry and Accord could even give those a run for their money now.
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