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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Anyone with a Honda I-4 want to divulge there RPM's at 70/80 MPH?

    It's really simple. In 5th in my Automatic 06 2.4L Accord, the engine turns 1000 RPM per 30 MPH. So, 2,333 at 70, 2,667 at 80.

    I'd wager that gearing is very similar on the 2008s, if not identical. Hope this helps.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    In top gear, virtually no car would be anywhere close to its peak torque at 80 mph (unless it were a diesel). In Aura XR, you couldn't get to peak torque rpm in sixth gear. You will hit 115 mph speed governor before that happens.

    Regardless of the torque from the engine, cars are generally geared to max out the thrust around 0.10g. This is often insufficient, so a lower gear is necessitated.

    Interestingly enough, 2008 Accord V6 is geared almost as short as 2008 Accord I-4 (runs about 2050 rpm at 60 mph). So, going uphill, its torque multiplication will be almost identical to competing V6 sedans that require at least one shift. So, its effectiveness in top gear will be close to Aura XR in fifth. And both may require to be in fourth (one shift for Accord, two for Aura) to make for a quick climb up a hill.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    Yup - my I4 08 AT - does about 2700rpm at 80mph.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Why is the transmission (or driver) down shifitng a problem. Why would I care if my car needs to be in 3rd or 4th or 5th gear for some particular hill? :confuse:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    In 5th in my Automatic 06 2.4L Accord, the engine turns 1000 RPM per 30 MPH. So, 2,333 at 70, 2,667 at 80.


    This is where my Mazda6 suffers. At 70 mph, I am spinning 3,000rpm's and at 80 mph, I am spinning 3,400 rpm's. Bad for fuel economy, great for passing / performance.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Surprisingly, right now, KBB and Edmunds agree pretty closely on the value of my car. Private party value for average to outstanding is $14091 to $16,122 on edmunds and on KBB it is $13.920 to $16,195 for fair to good condition.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    This is where my Mazda6 suffers. At 70 mph, I am spinning 3,000rpm's and at 80 mph, I am spinning 3,400 rpm's.

    Not sure what year or transmission you have. I know the automatic in the 4 cyl changed a lot as of 2006.

    My 2007 I4, auto is at about 2250 @ 60. This should mean ~2600 at 70 and about 3000 at 80.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I have a 5-speed manual
  • SporinSporin Posts: 1,066
    Anyone with a Honda I-4 want to divulge there RPM's at 70/80 MPH?

    08 LX 5spd manual, less then 600 miles on the odo. 70 mph = 2500 RPM's.

    My last car, a 5 spd V6 Mazda6 Wagon (05) turned 2950 RPMs at the same speed.

    While it's certainly not slow at highway speed, you don't get that push in the back when you dip the pedal in 5th like with a V6. Then again a nice rev-matched downshift to 4th with the Honda is a thing of beauty. :)

    I don't miss the V6 in may daily commute. It was fun to have the power but the MPG was just awful and the Honda i-4 is tons smoother then the Duratec based Mazda V6 was.

    First tank of gas in my new Accord was a shade over 25mpg, hoping for closer to 30 with my regular, relaxed highway commute and some break in. The Mazda delivered a steady 23mpg in combined driving over a 2 year period.

    I really don't have a lot bad to say about the Mazda6. It was good car, no real problems. I found it a bit small inside but I'm a wide load so that's not the car's fault. Biggest pain was that we don't have a local dealer. This was our 3rd Mazda.

    The width and interior size of the Accord is fantastic for a big guy like me. We totaled the Mazda when my wife rear ended a Jeep Liberty or we'd still be driving it waiting for the Diesel Accord to come out. Now we'll drive and enjoy our LX for a few years and see how the diesel introductions go.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    On the other end of the chart, my Viper would chug along at around 1,500 rpm in 6th gear at 70 mph. It still has plenty of torque at that setting and not bad on gas mileage there either.

    However, cruising at 70 mph is not what the Viper experience is all about. If I wanted to do that I'd take the Sebring. ;)
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    Ahhh yes . . . . if we all just had 500+ horses under the hood, gearing likley wouldn't be as much of an issue :P
  • 2007 Accord LX 5-speed manual
    Peak torque of 160 @ 4000 RPM

    From my experience, in 5th gear 10 MPH ~ 400 RPM

    40 MPH ~ 1600 RPM
    50 MPH ~ 2000 RPM
    60 MPH ~ 2400 RPM
    70 MPH ~ 2800 RPM
    80 MPH ~ 3200 RPM
    90 MPH ~ 3600 RPM
    100 MPH ~ 4000 RPM

    Never had it much higher, I suppose it tops out drag limited at around 120-130 MPH, spinning 4800-5200 RPM (peak HP is 166 @ 5800)

    Fuel economy average to date is about 28 mpg (city) and 34 mpg (hwy)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Viper is geared that tall not because it has torque, but because its fuel economy would suck if it were geared shorter. And its fuel economy isn’t anything to be proud of anyway. It is not uncommon to see Viper returning 10-12 mpg in road/comparison tests. That’s the bonus one gets with 500 HP.

    Now, if one never uses those horses, mileage will be higher. And it applies as much to those performance cars as it does to mainstream midsizers.

    BTW, my experience with Sebring has been horrible when it came to fuel economy.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Sounds right. Calculated number for 2008 Accord (60/70/80 mph)

    I-4/AT: 1950/2300/2600
    V6/AT: 2050/2400/2750

    I-4/MT: 2200/2600/2950
    V6/MT: 2100/2450/2800

    Interesting thing to note is that Accord V6/Auto is geared shorter than I-4/Auto.
  • Forgot to add how smooth and quiet it is at 3500 RPM.

    Several times, I've merged onto a highway and been trying to navigate traffic and/or follow road signs at 70-80mph, and only noticed that I forgot to shift into 5th after a couple of miles.

    My stepfather, who has a 2003 Accord EX I-4 Auto, drove my manual transmission Accord to pick my wife and I up from the airport. He never shifted into fifth the whole time out on the highway, like 10 miles. I could see the engine was running 3500 in 4th, but I said nothing and neither he nor my wife noticed.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Thats typical of Honda engines.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    WHY? That makes no sense to me :confuse: I would think the smaller engine would require the shorter gears at the top end? Any theories?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yes. Shorter gearing allows VCM to engage more often. The VCM-equipped Odyssey has shorter gearing than non-VCM Odys yet get better mileage because the VCM can operate more often. I'm in a hurry, but am sure someone here will explain it in more detail than I can at this (limited) time.

    I'll check in later!

    TheGrad
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Viper is geared that tall not because it has torque, but because its fuel economy would suck if it were geared shorter.

    With 500 lb-ft of torque it still has plenty, even at 1,500 rpms. I agree that the gearing is more meant to make the EPA happy and that's why a lot of owners put in aftermarket geaing.

    I think my Monroney label (window sticker) rates it at 11/22. Those numbers are fairly close to what I've experienced, depending on what type of driving I'm doing.
  • Maybe, it's as simple as Honda wants the V6 to feel that much sportier, thus the lower gearing.

    I'm sure that's why manual transmissions are geared lower.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Congrats on your new ride! Seems as though it suits you well... and the manual tranny in the Accord is pretty awesome. Looking forward to your thoughts on the Honda...I think you're the only one on here w/ an 08. And since you had a similar car as I currently have, I'll be able to relate a bit more to your descriptions. Glad to have another poster here too!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    robertsmx,

    I've got to laugh.

    Who with half a brain would buy a Viper if they were concerned with the MPG of the car? The Viper is already hit with the gas-guzzler tax.

    The Viper is about raw power, not MPG, interior room or cargo room. It's not meant to be a "practical car". It's in a specialty niche for those who can afford it in additon to their "normal" car.
  • 2007 Accord LX 5-speed manual
    40 MPH ~ 1600 RPM
    50 MPH ~ 2000 RPM
    60 MPH ~ 2400 RPM
    70 MPH ~ 2800 RPM
    80 MPH ~ 3200 RPM
    90 MPH ~ 3600 RPM
    100 MPH ~ 4000 RPM

    Calculated number for 2008 Accord

    I-4/AT: 60=1950,
    70=2300
    80=2600
    V6/AT: 60=2050
    70=2400
    80=2750

    I-4/MT: 60=2200
    70=2600
    80=2950
    V6/MT: 60=2100
    70=2450
    80=2800


    Saturn Aura XR 6 sp Automatic
    60=1500
    70=1750
    80=2000

    So at 70 MPH my Aura XR is spinning 1050 RPM less than the '07 Accord I4MT
    650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
    700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT

    Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
    That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
    (15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
    Just food for thought :blush:
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Interesting and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

    I haven't had a MT since 1983 but, as I recall, in a MT, X revs equaled Y MPH in each gear. In hilly CT, an AT can have different revs,in the same gear, at Y MPH depending upon whether the road is down hill, up hill or relatively flat.

    This would be due to the direct connection vs the fluid connection, I think. If I'm wrong please correct and explain.
  • Ever heard the term "Lock up Torque Converter"?
    It essentially makes a mechanical connection through the torque converter once a pre-programmed speed has been reached. Used to be, in the old days this didn't exist, then in the late 70's, I think, they figured a way to engage a latch of some sort which locked the two halves of the torque converter together once top gear was engaged and something like manifold vacuum was high.
    Today it's the transmissions computer that determines when to lock up occurs and it might even lock up in other than top gear.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    So at 70 MPH my Aura XR is spinning 1050 RPM less than the '07 Accord I4MT
    650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
    700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT

    Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
    That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
    (15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
    Just food for thought


    That is one big IF. Not applicable, in the "real world".
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    It seems to me if there were a person who was thinking about buying a midsize sedan, they may want to simplify the choices from the many listed above to just a few. The way to do this would be to look at different ways to divide the category... here are some thoughts:

    Budget/ Value - Sonata (18k for a v-6?, i4 ?), Mazda6 (17k for a v-6 in pdx), Optima

    Reliability - Sonata, Accord, Legacy, Fusion (listed in no particular order...) - of course I have to add that the differences in reliability as reported by JD Powers and Consumer Reports over a 5 year period between the most reliable and below average vehicles in this class are separated by only a few percent over that five year period... in other words, I would suggest that most vehicles in this class are very reliable.

    Sportiness/ fun to drive - Altima, Legacy GT, Mazda6, Aura, Accord coupe (reviews suggest the 2 door as having a much more sporty suspension than the 4 dr), Camry SE (motortrend said this model was more sporty than the Accord...for what that's worth)

    Cargo Utility - Outback, Passat wagon, Mazda6 hatchback/ wagon

    Resale value - Accord, Camry

    Interior Quality - too subjective, but my faves are the Legacy, new Sonata, Accord, Aura

    Gas mileage - ? not really a stat that I've looked at too much, but I'm sure others here will know

    Safety - Legacy

    Ride Comfort - not too sure where to start with this since some would value a tomb like ride, others might like something with more connection. Also, one person may like a seat that another would find awful. But I think the people who would list this as one of their primary considerations would most likely prefer something that is smooth and quiet and not very engaging. Camry, Accord, Sonata.

    I'm sure my list is far from comprehensive, but I welcome comments and additions/ clarifications to this list. Of course many of these qualities are somewhat subjective, but if there are new readers of this forum, our comments may help make their choices easier if not get them to think about how to go about making their choice.
  • Sportiness/ fun to drive - Altima, Legacy GT, Mazda6, Aura, Accord coupe (reviews suggest the 2 door as having a much more sporty suspension than the 4 dr), Camry SE (motortrend said this model was more sporty than the Accord...for what that's worth)

    Hmm a full-size "personal coupe" as fun to drive...eh kind of screams Monte Carlo to me. Not that the Prelude was svelte either, but that is a large automobile. I think our base Legacy has a pretty active ride which is understandably too harsh for some, but it is fun for me to drive. My friend had a previous generation Camry SE and it was reasonably firm as well, and was a 4 cyl 5 spd combo with a "sport" suspension.
  • In my opinion, the number of revolutions an engine has accumulated is less important in terms of overall durability than the design of the engine and most importantly, proper maintenance (especially when the difference between the average RPM is something like 2200 versus 3200, when redline is over 6000). Of course, any engine can be adversely affected by operating outside it's design parameters.

    Honda engines are designed to rev. Look at Civic Si, S2000... even one of the new Accord I4 variants has a redline over 7000 RPM. And then there are Honda sport motorcycles...

    Think about the engines in your lawn mower, leaf blower, or a personal watercraft or outboard boat motor (all of which are also made by Honda). Those engines stay at very high RPM during most of their use and are not adversely affected because they are designed to operate in those conditions.

    Most Honda motors have always been this way, and it hasn't seemed to adversely affect their durability compared to larger displacement, lower-revving motors in the past. In short, I don't worry too much about revving my Honda!
  • SporinSporin Posts: 1,066
    Thanks zzzoom6. :shades:

    The Accord is quite a contrast to the 6, that's for sure.
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