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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Here's a good example of 8000 rpm and 300K miles co-existing on an original (1991) engine. This is currently a daily driver. And if you happen to be in Dallas-Ft Worth Area, an Acura dealership has an on-display car with over 700K miles to go with 8000 rpm.

    So, it ain't all about rpm, but design and engineering, and considerations to durability. Besides, the last thing I would worry about in a Honda (Accord) will be its engine.
  • I have read this post over and over and I can't figure it out.
    Honda B18C used in Integra GS-R had a unique honey-comb cylinder lining. It was engineered to rev higher than a typical engine is. You can't apply a generic statement while ignoring facts like these.

    I don't understand "honey-comb lining." I am thinking it is something like the Crinkle Chrome applied to some cross county motorcycle racing engines back in the 70's. It was a super smooth, supper hard, chrome-molly alloy plating with a spider web of microscopic fractures which held on to the oil better reducing friction of rings to cylinder walls.

    You mention "apply generic statement while ignoring facts like these" but I don't see any facts in your statement.
    Are you saying that an engine with a honey-comb cylinder doesn't have any friction anywhere in the engine? I know from your other posts you are way to knowledgeable to state an assumption like that and I won't assume that is what you were saying.
    I just am missing the facts you elude to, I guess. Maybe you could describe the facts to me more clearly?

    Other post on this thread have made statements along the lines that RPM has no effect on Honda engines. Honda must have figured out how to completely eliminate metal on metal contact in an engine, which would be the greatest discovery of the 20th century, and maybe the 21st . With this technology we can solve the oil crisis because we wont need it for lubrication of anything in the future. :D
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    No I didn't miss that - you addressed someone who had replied to you and asked why. I showed you why. My goodness you can make a mountain of a molehill!! :) Could we please move on?
  • Other post on this thread have made statements along the lines that RPM has no effect on Honda engines. Honda must have figured out how to completely eliminate metal on metal contact in an engine, which would be the greatest discovery of the 20th century, and maybe the 21st . With this technology we can solve the oil crisis because we wont need it for lubrication of anything in the future.

    I don't think they own the market on reducing friction in an internal combustion or compression ignition motor. I think the design of the piston itself, the design of the cylinder wall, the way the rings seat and the material they are made of, and the coatings they use on the cylinders, pistons, and rings helps too. Modern con-rod bearings seem to show almost no wear after hundreds of thousands of miles if the oil was maintained.

    The Contour held 5.7 qts of oil while the Accord held 3.8 qts. Because the Contour was tracked, it got synthetic, but I didn't have an issue with either one. I wanted to make sure there was something protecting the bearings when the vehicle was oil-starved during hard cornering, so synthetic seemed like the way to go. 180k later it was fine, and that was high load, high RPM driving.
    I personally am not worried about revs in a motor, as long as its within its factory limits (if you start reving a 7500 RPM redline motor to 10k you might have an issue). In my opinion, manufacturing tolerances are tight enough between all manufacturers.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Molehill Mountain That would be a great title for a blog.

    Suggestion for new topic for today's discussion, "Which midside car has the best automatic climate control system?"

    I'll start with saying the Mazda6 is not the winner.
  • Suggestion for new topic for today's discussion, "Which midside car has the best automatic climate control system?"

    Never had it. Too entertaining to sit there and battle with Mrs. LilEngineerBoy over the temperature control knob. Okay, not really, but it wasn't until recently that we had 2 cars that had Air Conditioning, let alone climate control.
  • I firmly believe that ANY modern engine whether build and designed by Honda or Hyundai or Ford (except the 3.8 V-6 of blown headgasket fame) or GM (except the original aluminum block Vega 4 cyl. OR the diesel V-8 conversion from the 80's) or Chrysler will far outlast the original owner and probably several additional owners as well so questions of longevity up to at least 150K miles are a moot point. Of course, all talk of engine longevity is assuming the owner changes the oil, filters,plugs etc. once in a while and if one neglects even a Honda engine this will result in far reduced life. Anyhow, if you really want to talk high mileage I have had several and NONE were Honda. We had a 1988 Plymouth Horizon with 240K miles (2.2 liter 4 cyl.) a 1987 Taurus with perhaps the greatest engine Ford ever made...the Vulcan 3.0 V-6 that had a bit over 300K miles when sold and another 87 Taurus, same engine with 187 K miles when sold, a 1979 Subaru with over 300K miles when sold, and currently I drive a 1995 Dodge Stratus 2.5 liter V-6 that has 197,047 miles and counting....oh yeah, my son drives a 2000 Hyundai Elantra that had 172,167 miles when I last saw it and since he is racking up miles to the tune of 100 per day minimum probably a lot more now. All but the Horizon (which finally suffered a blown headgasket) were driven away and were used by the latest buyer when I sold them and all were reliable with no clanking or excessive oil use and all were as quiet as when they were 10's of thousands of miles newer. All this to say Honda does not have a lock on engine reliability OR longevity.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    On the list of things I don't worry about, the longevity of my Accord's engine is #1. On the list of things Honda knows, building engines is #1. Assuming that the Aura's engine will last longer, because it will turn less rpm would be mistake, and I certainly would not bet on it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,535
    >I firmly believe that ANY modern engine whether build and designed by Honda or Hyundai or Ford

    I agree with your post. You stated the point very well.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    With regard to climate control, the auto. climate control on my 08 Accord EX-L works great and I have no complaints. Ms. Bug4 loves to put her temperature 10-12 degrees hotter than mine. The system handles the temperature gradient very well and, because the interior is so large or for whatever other reason, the system seems to be able to maintain significantly different temperatures from one side to the other. Other than its initial attempts to get the car up to temperature, I'm impressed with how quietly it operates! Now, having said that, I haven't had anyone in the back seat for an extended trip. So, who knows, maybe the climate in the back seat is unbearable?? I am disappointed the new Accords don't have any duct work to the back seats!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I find dual climate control to be useless. I've had two vehicles with dual climate control. The number of times I've used that feature over 6 years with two vehicles was about 4.

    Now, I find the heater element on the windshield on the Subaru under the wiper blades to be extraordinarily useful in the winter. You can't get that feature on any car in this segment.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    yea -- dual climate control is only useful if the passenger seat is occupied. I agree 1000% with your assessment of Subaru's wiper heaters - that is a very nice feature!! Other manufacturers offer cold weather packages -- so I'm not sure why that is not included. Of course, Honda doesn't package much of anything and so I'm not surprised that heater elements are not offered. Even in Wyoming, where I live, I would only "need" the elements 3-4 times per year. But they sure would be nice!!

    [Perhaps that is why every-other-car you see in Wyoming and Colorado is a Subaru ;) If I had to pick any one vehicle to drive on snow and ice, it would be an Outback! ]
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the only thing that makes no sense is your apparent claim - that purchase price has anything to do with budget/value. It doesn't, necessarily! Just because a Hyundai/Kia or Ford/Mercury are cheaper to buy does NOT make them any more (or less) of a value- it is cost to own that logically is the only thing that matters - and also a category that historically things like Camcordimas are cheaper in fact than the 'Funatas' - and this is not any more subjective than FE ratings for example.
    Don't understand why 'value' or even 'budget' are necessarily even used in the same sentence as 'cheaper to buy' or 'lower cost'. That, is certainly a faulty assumption. :confuse:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    historically things like Camcordimas are cheaper in fact than the 'Funatas' - and this is not any more subjective than FE ratings for example.

    This is your belief, not a known fact.

    In addition, even if true for some (such as those who trade cars every two years or those who overpay for "Funatas"), it is most certainly not true for all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    My 1996 Accord LX has ducts under the front seats, my 2006 Accord EX does as well. Surely the 2008 does too?

    These ducts are used when the front seats' ventilation has air/heat coming out of the floor.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Beliefs can stem from facts. When it comes to ownership costs, resale and initial costs aren't the end. A lot of little costs add up over years and thousands of miles. Calculate, and you just might be surprised.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    My 98 Accord also had ducts to the back seat. Although I haven't actually looked at my own car, :confuse: , my understanding is that Honda skipped the ducts on the 08 models. Can anyone confirm this? Makes sense since the car is bigger and allegedly more luxurious than ever . . .. NOT!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    OR
    you can choose to believe the Intellichoices (or Edmunds') of the world that do put real numbers to these kind of things!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    OR
    you can simply trade in your Camcordima vs a Funata and see why yourself!
  • The engine will, in all probability, outlast the rest of the car in both the Accord and the Aura. You really believe that no other manufacturer can build a proper engine...only Honda?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I don't think A/C vents in the rear are necessary in a car. With the middle dash vents pointed toward the center rear the air easily circulates throughout the interior. In something with a very large interior such as a van or large SUV, it may be necessary, but not in a car. I don't have a problem cooling the rear seat of my Black car, even when the temperatures get to 100 degrees, here in the deep South.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    **steps on soap box**

    One of my pet-peeves on these forums is when one member attributes a position to another member that the member never took. This is particularly problematic when, as is often the case, the position assigned is one that is absurd.

    I don't need to come to anyone's defense here. But, I don't think anyone on this forum has ever said that "no other manufacturer can build a proper engine...only Honda."

    We have some fairly reasonably-minded people on this forum. Sometimes that makes for boring conversation. But, so be it. IMHO, its better not to develop a controversy, and put forum members on the defense, by assigning positions to them that they never took. ** It has happened a bunch on the Accord forums over the last week and it creates dozens of posts that are interesting only to the 2-3 people engaged in the debate.

    Sorry -- I need to give back Pat his host's job. . .

    ** Steps off of soap box**
  • Assuming that the Aura's engine will last longer, because it will turn less rpm would be mistake, and I certainly would not bet on it.

    Reread #7612. The assumption is yours that I said the Aura would last longer than the Honda. I could never say that, outright. I said if materials and maintenance were the same...
    What I was saying, and didn't think it needed further explanation, is that the engine could last years longer, meaning, compared to the same engine turning several million more rev's in it's life time.

    It never fails to amaze me how so many car (Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Ford, Chevy or Yugo) owners will go to any length to defend their brand against a perceived attack, It's like Killer Bee's going after a dog because they think it is going to attach the hive :confuse:

    It's been fun though :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Phaetondriver stated that the Aura engine would last longer than the Accord engine due to the fact that at certain speeds the engine in the Accord is turning more rpm. I seriously doubt that is true. Of course if there is some proof, I would love to see it. Honda has a reputation for building durable engines, which is why people will pay more for anything with a Honda engine in it, than for the same product without one.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I think what happens is that when we can only communicate through written words, it's very easy to misinterpret the writer's intention. Without the tone of voice and facial cues that are available in a face to face conversation, it's easy for the reader to take a fork in the road that wasn't supposed to be there. :)

    I also think it's good from time to time to set out some reality checks. You make some valid points.

    Actually, I think everyone here is reasonably-minded. We're just passionate about that which we are reasonable. :P
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The assumption is yours that I said the Aura would last longer than the Honda. I could never say that, outright. I said if materials and maintenance were the same...
    What I was saying, and didn't think it needed further explanation, is that the engine could last years longer, meaning, compared to the same engine turning several million more rev's in it's life time.


    If you do not actually believe this statement is true, why say it? Even if the maintenance is the same, they are very different engines. You can make a lot of claims when you use IF this, and IF that, in every sentence.
  • chronochrono Posts: 149
    If you do not actually believe this statement is true, why say it? Even if the maintenance is the same, they are very different engines. You can make a lot of claims when you use IF this, and IF that, in every sentence.

    I keep hearing Honda engines are very different. How so? What we are comparing are two internal combustion engines. Both are V6 with similiar displacement. WHAT shoots down the higher rev arguement. Advanced Honda engineering? OK, like what? To me when you put more stress on an engine for example, forced induction, there is increased wear thus less engine life.
  • If you do not actually believe this statement is true, why say it? Even if the maintenance is the same, they are very different engines

    You don't think I was talking about the same engine?
    How about if I said if you drove your Honda with a rev limiter on the ignition that kept the engine below 5000 RPM and I drove An exact copy of that car built on the same day, in the same factory(s) and mine was limited at 7000 RPM.
    We drove the same roads in the same weather, same traffic, etc. and used the same oil changed at the same time, in the same shop, that your engine and mine would last exactly the same number of miles/years?

    Well without spelling it out in every detail that is what I was saying.
    I don't have the history to back up a statement that the Cadillac 3.6 L engine will last for 2 years or 10. That it will last 50K or 500K miles. Thus I couldn't and didn't make such a statement. It was all the assumptions make because so many what to defend the Honda engine without trying to understand what has been written.
    If you had read what I wrote you would see that I have stated the Honda has a very reliable engine and Honda's are very reliable cars. But as soon as I say that the Aura is good, or maybe better than a Honda, in anything, the defenders all rise to the call.

    Oh! BTW, Why is the Honda Powertrain Limited Warranty (years/miles) = 5/60,000.
    and the Cadillac/Aura XR for 5 years, or 100,000 miles/160,000 kms?
  • I concur, as my 1985 SAAB 900 naturally aspirated 2.0L SOHC I-4 - which by the way is smooth as silk - is over 250K miles with no engine corrective maintenance, and still is a daily driver. In fact, the only powertrain-specific corrective maintenance since purchase in April '85 was a new clutch at 120K miles. Honda is not alone in manufacturing a bullet-proof Inline 4. Ask older Volvo owners about the durability of the old B18 and B20 OHV Inline 4's - their durability is legendary.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Suggestion for new topic for today's discussion, "Which midsize car has the best automatic climate control system?

    Difficult to say unless I tested them all. However, the Sebring I recently bought has a very nice one, IMHO. I just set every knob to "A" and it takes care of the rest.

    I've noticed that the fan doesn't blow very hard the first minute or two when starting out on cold days. That keeps cold air from blowing on me. On warm days above 70F or so it directs more air out the instrument panel vents for more direct cooling on me. There's just nothing so far about it that I don't like.

    What don't you like about the Mazda6 climate control?
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