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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I brought up the Corolla in response to a post that claimed that any car that is a best-seller in its class is a benchmark. I used the Corolla and the Chrysler minivans as counter-examples to illustrate my opinion that best-selling does not equal benchmark. So shoot me.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Save money. There's others, but you asked for one. Good night.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Your illustrations were valid, and do help prove a point. I get more joy operating a dishwasher than driving a Corolla.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Then you shouldn't complain about someone talking Corolla in a response to your post which started it. Thats my point.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    And thats the point I made, and wanted to hear from you. How well does a use Sonata hold its value when the new ones are basically being given away (and with a longer warranty to boot)? Why buy old when you can get new for dirt cheap? May be if the old is even cheaper (and considerably so). This is just the beginning of a cascading effect and therein lies the essence of my point.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Toyota hit the nail on the head with the Corolla. And the damage done with that strike rendered that compact car utterly mundane, bland and minimalistic.

    And the Corolla does exactly what the owner wants it to do, which is get them from A to B reliably, being efficient in the process.

    BTW. Go STEELERS,......Go PATRIOTS.............sore looser.
  • how did you figure a larger wheel will weigh less?
    First case I weighed the wheels and tires from my car (Jeep Cherokee), 15 inch 225, 75sr 15's on steel wheels with hub caps on my bathroom scale. I bought a set of 17X7 in alloy American Eagles and Continental 225 55SR 17's
    The weight difference was 30 pound per combination or 120 pound total unsprung weight saved.

    If you weigh a 15 inch alloy wheel and a 17 inch allow wheel the 17 will weigh a little more, maybe 12 to 16 ounces depending on style. The weight will be saved in the tires. Both of the same width and diameter. There will be a lot less rubber in the larger tire. the weight of the rubber is more than the extra weight of the larger wheel, buy a couple of pounds each.
    The big negative for lower profile tires is the harder ride due to the higher air pressure you need to run to keep the rims of the ground when you hit a pothole.
  • Depreciation, residual value, holding its value, et. al. are all moot points if you don't sell or trade in a car. One only loses money if you sell, trade, or get a settlement for an accident. If you pay a reasonable price for any car, whether it's a Honda, Hyundai, or Ford, and "drive the wheels off the car," it's always the most cost-effective approach to car ownership. I don't mind keeping a car I like, and enjoy driving, 10 to 20 years - as it becomes part of the family!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    IMPO - Chevy's 'you've got to notice me now' ad campaign is well conceived and may serve to get real sales (sales - fleet sales) to Altima type levels, but still short of the Camcords obviously. Reminds me of the 'ugly' ad campaigns that VW used to run many years ago - turning a negative into a positive. The XR has not been doing very well in quality/reliability reports, it will hurt GM if this happens with what should be a big seller, or if they don't have the production capabilities to meet demand. A Malibu buyer will likely expect some 'Detroit' style discounts, something that won't happen if the car is in short supply as you suggest.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If you pay a reasonable price for any car, whether it's a Honda, Hyundai, or Ford, and "drive the wheels off the car," it's always the most cost-effective approach to car ownership. I don't mind keeping a car I like, and enjoy driving, 10 to 20 years.

    Yes, most can not bring themselves to do that, apparently. Then there are also some who drive 30K mi per year...can not plan on 10 years+ if driving that much.

    However, I think if you buy the car you like best then you are likely to want to keep it longer. Buying something you will keep longer, whether it is more or less expensive (within reason) and has greater or lesser depreciation, will most likely be the better financial decsion.
  • SporinSporin Posts: 1,066
    I'll make another comparison between my 05 Mazda6 Wagon and my new 08 Accord LX.... turning circle. If you hit up the Mazda6 owners boards you've probably already heard about the 6's infamously huge turning circle. When I told my wife about it she assumed I was exaggerating but quickly recanted after trying to park in a tight parking lot. :)

    While my new Accord is longer and wider it is noticeably easier to park and the turning circle is very tight for a car it's size.

    Not a huge deal, but an interesting (IMO) thing to note.

    Another thing I'll complain about is TPMS (Tire pressure monitoring systems). As a lifelong NH & VT'er I've bought a set of steel wheels and dedicated snow tires for every new car I buy. Since I have air tools in my garage it's a simple 20 min. process to swap over the snows. This generally runs $500 shipped to my door and teh tires last 3-4 seasons easily. Cheap insurance and peace of mind.

    Well those days are over. If my Accord doesn't "see" it's TPMS signals from the wheels it will light a warning light and possibly throw a code.

    This means I now have just snow tires that I have to pay someone $50+ each spring and fall to swap back and forth on the same rims. OR I can spend an extra $350+ for a second set of TPMS sensors on a TireRack Winter set of steelies and snow and hope they work with my car's computer.

    Not to mention if the stem in the sensor is wrecked you have to replace the entire sensor ($150 each from Honda) :mad:

    The swap costs really add up over time, not to mention the hassle of making appointments and shuffling the car around to have it done. I also prefer to do the work myself as I know how to use a torque wrench. ;)

    Frankly, I find it appalling that so many people (presumably) can't be bothered to check their tire pressure regularly so we have to have a gov't mandated nanny device to "save us from ourselves" all creating more complexity and COST to the consumer.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    With the new Sonata design from Hyundai and the new world order Optima from Kia, both loaded for less cash up front, these South Korean automakers have met and surpassed their Japanese counterparts in the mid-size family sedan class

    Are your referring to the same automobile manufacturers listed in the title of the thread as I am? Because I don't see "met" much less "surpassed".
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,068
    >The big negative for lower profile tires is the harder ride

    Aren't the tires more susceptible to damage from potholes that ordinary tires with a deeper sidewall absorb with impunity? Give me the real tires and 15-16 inch rims that absorb shock and roll smoothly.
  • Frankly, I find it appalling that so many people (presumably) can't be bothered to check their tire pressure regularly so we have to have a gov't mandated nanny device to "save us from ourselves" all creating more complexity and COST to the consumer.

    No one has ever gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the general populace. I find it appalling that the EPA changed the way they rated fuel economy because people wanted to continue driving like Mario Andretti, and still feel like they were doing a good job and getting the mileage on the sticker.
    I also find appalling the public acceptance of lane departure warnings...these things give feedback if someone is going out of their lane on the highway. People complain that it buzzes every time they change lanes...that means they aren't signaling when they change lanes.
    Sorry about my occasional lack of faith in humanity.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The EPA felt it had to adjust the estimates, because most people in "real world" driving were not coming close to the estimates, and did a lot of complaining (squeaky wheel gets the grease). To me, it doesn't matter which method of calculation they use, it will not change what I get in my own car, driving they way I drive. The EPA estimate is only for comparison between models, but many people expect it to be more than that. I have no problem with it.

    Tire pressure monitors and lane change sensors are unnecessary, IMO. If they cost more than 2 cents, it's more than I want to pay for something I don't need, and is more likely to be a neusance than an asset.
  • I suspect the influx of tire monitoring systems is tied more to liability for automakers when the technology is "available" and not provided. The systems showed up first on high speed or high profile (trucks and SUVS) that are more prone to problems when tires fail catastrophically. The search for deep pockets after an accident is real. I doubt many juries will hold an owner responsible for failure to check tire pressure when most jury members don't do so with their own tires. Most drivers do not know that all tires lose air over time or that tire pressure varies with temperature of the tire. This is actually one of the benefits of the quick oil change chains. If you really service your car every 3,000 miles, the basics like tire pressure do get checked regularly.

    With more safety and luxury features, It's easy to see how cars of the same basic size have gotten significantly heavier over the last fifteen years. A personal favorite and rarely mentioned "safety" feature is a trip computer that includes outside temperature. Living in snow country, I like to know when road temperatures may be approaching freezing. Antilock brake systems (ABS) and their extensions, traction control and stability control, are also great features when the weather turns bad.

    I'm glad to have better crush zones and side curtain airbags, even with the added weight. Are there any safety features you would give up to save weight if liability issues didn't dictate their inclusion? In engineering it is always a balancing act, but for me, I like the added safety.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    TPMS is actually an NHTSA mandated feature now, beginning Sep '07, 100% of the cars sold should have it.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Not all folks hang on to their cars forever. In fact, few do. So, you can't throw depreciation, residual etc. out. Do you seriously believe used car market is a moot point for an automaker, and that they don't have to worry about it?
  • My questions about the tires are, what kind of differences do you find with regard to the speedometer readings, :confuse: and the mileages both in mpg and tread wear mileages obtained, and/or lost when changing from one size to another. :confuse: ie. from 17" to 16" or vice versa ? I recognize the differences in the sidewalls etc.. but don't know about these matters. I am thinking about practicality and cost more than style. PS I personally think some of the larger tires do look "ugly" too. My personal opinion. Thanks for your comments.
    :confuse:
    van
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    You compared two different set ups (15" steel wheels versus 17" alloys). Typically, larger size isn't limited to just adding an inch to the rim and taking an inch off the sidewall. Generally it also means wider rims.
    Accord LX-P: P215/60/R16 (16x6.5)
    Accord EX/EX-L: P225/50/R17 (17x7.5)
    Accord Coupe/V6: P235/45/R18 (18x8.0)

    The new 17" rim/tire has actually been weighed against the old (P215/50/R17, 17x7.0) rim/tire to note a difference of about 30 lb, with the new larger wheel being heavier.

    Tires may or may not be substantially different in weight (the sidewall may be smaller, but now it is wound on a larger diameter rim, even with no increase to width). Each Michelin MXV4 Plus tire in new Accord (LX/LX-P) is 5 lb heavier than the same brand/speed rated tire in my old Accord.

    The reality is, when efficiency counts, automakers do worry about these little details. But in a rush to woo "I want big" crowd, they doesn't seem to care less. Besides weight, it also reflects in replacement cost, and something often missed... turning radius (upsize tires are usually wider). And I can see that frustration from someone like urnews who has a Fusion SEL/AWD. Not only does it come with big tires, it also comes with bigger replacement cost, weight, reduced efficiency and poorer turning radius. But I'm sure "give me big" folks like the looks of it.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You're right, not my intent - "ploy" just means "strategy" - perhaps that would have been a better choice. Thanks.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Different tire sizes can have an impact on speedometer reading, especially if they are not caliberated with those differences considered. I quoted three sizes that are being offered in 08 Accord. Here they are again, with calculated diameter in inches:
    P215/60/R16: 26.15"
    P225/50/R17: 25.86"
    P235/45/R18: 26.33"

    The 18" wheel has the lowest profile tire but still ends up with the largest diameter. 17" rim is next when it comes to sidewall size, but smallest when it comes to diameter. The size difference between the two is about 2%.

    Now, speedometer in all three may be caliberated to consider the size difference, or a median may have been used for all three which will minimize the difference to some extent.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I'm not sure what you mean by "complain". What I did was point out that the Corolla is not in the mid-sized sedan class, thus I kept my response re the Corolla short out of respect for those that come here to learn about mid-sized cars. I didn't point my finger at anyone and "complain" that they mentioned the Corolla. Just stated a fact.

    You realize of course that both of your posts "complaining" that I stated that the Corolla is off-topic are, uh, off-topic. ;) As is this post! So why don't we drop this chirping about a short post that mentioned the Corolla and get back to mid-sized cars?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Why buy a new anything (car) when you can save thousands buying used? What does this have to do with mid-sized cars in general or the Sonata in particular? This is true for all new vs. used cars. I don't know any mid-sized family cars that appreciate over time. You pay a premium for the pleasure of driving away in a brand new car. Wait awhile, buy a used one, and save a lot of bucks.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    He's mad at me, not you. :-)

    You're right, we should drop this and move on.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Since you chose to respond, let me point out something before moving on. You started the argument around benchmark and quoted Corolla as a part of it. To which, when someone responds that Corolla is indeed a benchmark, you took offense that we shouldn't discuss Corolla as it is not a midsize sedan. What was that?

    Don't bother responding though, as we both have an idea and it will take nowhere but OT.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Indeed. :)

    I'm not against using arguments involving cars from different class if it helps make a point here, which I thought the original post that started it all did. I'm against tunnel vision, double standards and lack of perspective often used to make points.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    In any case, it really is time we dropped all of this clearly superfluous nit-picking and get back to the subject.

    Thanks. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Doesn't the warranty get reduced dramatically for Hyundai vehicles after the first owner. So as you are suggesting the warranty is not 90K miles, it's much less.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Not with certified which is where I'm focusing the discussion as it involves automaker in used car market. But yes, it does get trimmed down in half on private sale.
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