Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Midsize Sedans 2.0

1263264266268269728

Comments

  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Exactly, you can't count the Impala. "

    Actually I can. Like I said if the Impala doesnt count then you might as well say the Accord doesnt compete with the camry. The impala is priced in the same range as the camry and accord and competes with those cars. If you say its fullsize (which is only by EPA standards because its not that big) than its still the best selling fullsize car in the market and whips the Avalon in sales.

    "How many did those 140k G6 and 250k Malibu went to the fleet? Exactly... "

    how many altima, Sonata and camry sales are fleets? Gm has cut its fleet sales and thats one reason Lacrosse, Grand prix and G6 sales have been down this year. Meanwhile the Asians are adding more fleet sales every year. The notion that fleets by cars no one wants is laughable when you can rent a mazda3, Altima, Azeria, Altima, Camry, etc. Fleets buy whatever is the best deal and in most cases american cars are the best deal. That is changing now since the imports need to keep their production numbers up. What I find funny about the fleet bashers is that its never acknowlegded that fleet sales will happen no matter what. If the Big 3 goes out of business tomorrow Toyota and Nissan will gladly soak up that business. Import companies largely cant compete for fleet sales from a price or equipment perspective and this is one reason why the domestic dominate this market. There are no Camry police cars because Toyota doesnt make a car that would be acceptable for police duty. The impala sells as a cop car for that reason, not because its a car that has no appeal to customers.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    As for fleets, they are a part of business.

    Yeah sure, it's part of the business but it's the part that companies would LOVE to be without. Sure Toyota has higher fleet sales than Nissan and Honda but what about compare to GM, Ford and the new fleet favorite Chrysler?
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Well, I do believe GM sells more cars (and trucks) in the U.S. than does Toyota. But Camry is No. 1 in mid-size sales, followed closely by Accord. Not sure who is No. 3, Altima maybe?"

    Toyota has the best selling nameplate. Gm is the leader in midsize sales. The Impala outsold the Altima in 2006 and will again this year. It even outsold the Accord a few months this year.

    cars like the Fusion or Malibu dont even have the production capacity to exceed the camry. Best seller is an award for ad purposes, it means little. Ford advertises that it has the best selling truck but GM sells more pickups so I dont think GM cares. If GM changed the name of all its midsize cars to Malibu it would instantly have the best selling midsizer. It doesnt matter to me, but apparently it does to others. When I ask people if the most sales makes the F150 the best pickup (and vehicle) in American they seem to get a little ambiguous. If sales are all that matters than the F150 is about twice as good as the Camry and WAY better than the Tundra. The fact of the matter is Toyota doesnt have enough capacity to exceed F150 sales even though the Tundra is a better vehicle.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Actually I can.

    No you can't. The Impala is not part of this discussion and according to EPA it is a fullsize car. I have no problem agreeing with you that with or without fleet sales Impala is the best selling fullsize car but that's not what we are discussing here aren't we?

    how many altima, Sonata and camry sales are fleets? Gm has cut its fleet sales and thats one reason Lacrosse, Grand prix and G6 sales have been down this year.

    I though you would never ask... :P

    Here are the numbers for fleet sales for the first part of 2007, let's see how much GM cut back on its fleet sales this year:

    Chevy Malibu 58.8%
    Chevy Impala 53.9%
    Pontiac G6 36.2%
    Saturn Aura 23.7%
    Buick LaCrosse 29.2%
    Honda Accord 4.9%
    Nissan Altima 16.4%
    Toyota Camry 7.7%

    Source: Fleet Sales - first half 2007

    Even the brand spanking new Aura had about 1/4 of total units going to fleets. GM is definitely cutting back on fleet sales...

    About police cars, I don't know why we are discussing this but the bottom line is the imports don't need that market to generate sales.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The Impala is NOT a midsize car, period.

    Maybe the host can help us out with this...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    As for fleets, they are a part of business. If Toyota makes a police package camry then I'm sure cops will buy it. Fleets must not be all bad since Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are relying on them more than ever. Fleet sales are 9% of Toyota sales and a higher % of Nissan's.

    9%-20% pales in comparison to 53.9% for the Impala. And if fleet sales is fine, why do manufacturers try to reduce it? BTW, that would include GM.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Yeah sure, it's part of the business but it's the part that companies would LOVE to be without. Sure Toyota has higher fleet sales than Nissan and Honda but what about compare to GM, Ford and the new fleet favorite Chrysler? "

    A few things to note. The bad fleets sales are the rentals, not the police cars and corporate cars. The Asians ONLY deal in fleets while Gm's fleet sales includes rentals, government, companies, contractors, etc. IF you compare RENTAL %s only the numbers wont be too far off. GM is at 23% fleet I believe which is low by historical standards. And of course that includes all those cars they sell to the government.

    Mark my words, the Asians will continue to increase the fleet sales year after year. Hyundai is doing it big time to keep Sonatas moving out of the factory. Same with the Mazda6, Kia Optima and others. 10 years ago you couldnt find an Asian midsizer on a rental lot.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "9%-20% pales in comparison to 53.9% for the Impala. And if fleet sales is fine, why do manufacturers try to reduce it? BTW, that would include GM. "

    a) the figures you are quoting are not current- I've seen them quoted many times before. BTW, you should only compare Impala RENTAL sales to altima and camry rental sales. Unless there are Camry police cars I dont know about its not fair to lump all fleet sales together and say Camry and altima are far lower. Of course they are, their vehicles arent eligible for many of the uses that are applicable to Impala.
    b) Gm is trying to reduce rental sales NOT all fleet sales. The imports only have rentals as fleet sales. They dont sell to governments.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I used to think that, several years ago. I used to think that every Toyota and Honda, whether it was a brand-new design or a mature model, would have stellar reliability. And they did. But then things changed, e.g. 1999 Odyssey... 2001 Civic... Sludge on Toyota engines... 2003 Accord... 2007 Camry. All of these had significant problems.

    Since I own one of those 03 Accords (51k miles), I would like to know what these "significant problems" are? Your definition of "significant", and my definition of "minor" must be very similar. I don't think 0$ spent on repairs is considered "significant". Highly exadurated, IMO.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "No you can't. The Impala is not part of this discussion and according to EPA it is a fullsize car. I have no problem agreeing with you that with or without fleet sales Impala is the best selling fullsize car but that's not what we are discussing here aren't we? "

    I will say this, to the EPA its not midsize. To consumers it would be since its barely larger than midsizers in this class. I asked a while back if this means the Accord should be banned from this discussion. I did not see a response. GM sells more midsizers even without the Impala so if you only care about EPA classifications it can be removed even though consumers see it as a competitor to the midsizers in this class. Now that I think about it I believe the sonata is also a fullsize car.

    The % of fleet sales in 2007 are irrelevant if we dont have the previus year's stats. GM overall has reduced fleet sales. It may not be enough, but it is happening.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    You know, we've already had this discussion. :sick: But if you insist, I consider a recall of over 1 million cars due to a transmission problem that could cause transmission failure (and an accident) to be significant.

    When talking about reliability, we can't just talk about the experience of one person, with one car.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Honda Accord 4.9%
    Nissan Altima 16.4%
    Toyota Camry 7.7% "

    I checked out that table and I see why you didnt show Sonata, Optima, 6 or Galant up there. Honda is out of the discussion because we all know that Honda really doesnt do rentals. I saw something recently about the % increase or decrease in fleet sales in 2007 and the increases for Nissan and Toyota were very large while all of the Big 3 had declines. I think GM was down about 5% or so.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "The Impala is NOT a midsize car, period.

    Maybe the host can help us out with this... "

    I believe the cutoff is 100 cu ft of interior space. The Impala has over 100 cu ft of room but not by a signifcant margin. The Taurus, 300, Avalon, etc, are far larger inside. As I said, the Sonata and Accord are "large" by EPA standards but most people would consider them midsize cars. I know I do.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Okay, just to make you happy...

    Impala commercial fleet sales 15.5%
    Camry commercial fleet sales 2.9%

    Impala government fleet sales 8.4%
    Camry government fleet sales 0.1%

    Impala rental fleet sales 30%
    Camry rental fleet sales 4.7%

    All numbers from first half 2007
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I know I do.

    Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.

    When you are EPA then we'll talk.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? :sick: ) to be major players in our discussion anyway.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.

    When you are EPA then we'll talk. "

    I thought this topic included the Accord and Sonata? Maybe I am mistaken.

    Accord is fullsize without sunroof, that isnt news. My point is can the full size accord not be compared to Altima, Malibu, etc. because of the EPA rating? You are telling me the Impala isnt a midsize car in pricing and consumer perception because of the EPA classification even though it barely qualifies. I guess that applies to Sonata and Accord (w/o sunroof) as well. I mean, who would ever compare a huge full size accord to a smallish midsize camry? Two totally different sizes of cars. According to what you're saying a 99 cu ft car wouldnt be compared to a 102 cu ft car because of the EPA designations of each.

    It inconsequential in the end because without the Impala GM comes close to Toyota in midsize sales. I figure about 570k midsize cars for 2007 which should be close to camry/ES350 sales. The Prius is a midsize so that could throw it back in Toyota's favor though. If we say sedans between $20k-$30k GM sells more.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? ) to be major players in our discussion anyway. "

    in a world where only the top sellers count the Malibu, Aura, Fusion, etc. are not major players either. You might as well not talk about any cars outside of Camry and Accord. The Sonata has sales on the same magnitude of Fusion and Malibu and far outsells Aura. I evaluate cars based on price, design, etc. not fleet sales and who has the highest overall sales. If we care about that stuff its pointless to talk about anything not named Camry or accord.

    Whenever people bring up fleets as some sort of insult I note that in Europe audi and BMW sell to fleets and people in the US dont seem to care. Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    a) If my numbers aren't current, provide the latest.
    b) It doesn't matter. GM is trying hard to improve retail sales, and that is the bottom line. Who wouldn't?

    Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.

    Who said it is? But, one shouldn't sit and talk about a leaking roof in neighbor's house while trying to empty one's own bucket.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.

    It's very simple, as long as the manufacture isn't losing money while selling cars to the fleet then it's all good, a sale is a sale anyway. However, once it start losing money and part of the reason is fleet sales then they'll find out very quickly that the world is a lot different when the kumbaya singing stops.
  • Then exclude the Accord, its a full size sedan.

    The Accord is only full size without the sunroof so technically it is still midsize car.

    No, its a midsize car with a sunroof, its a full size car without a sunroof. If you are really worried, drop EX sales. That's not fair to call it both ways like that though.

    The Impala is barely a midsize anyway by EPA standards.

    The Impala is full size by EPA standard, barely or not. If team A beats team B barely by 1 point would you consider team B won the game as well?

    Thats fair, it should go by EPA size class not by price segment. The Ford Crown Vic is a large car by any standard and costs less than a Civic.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Who said it is? But, one shouldn't sit and talk about a leaking roof in neighbor's house while trying to empty one's own bucket. "

    Not sure what you mean by that. Its a well known fact that GM sells more to fleets than the Big 3 Asians. Not news to me or you. There are many reasons for that but anti domestic people have concluded that the SOLE reason is that fleet sales are for cars that stink and have no retail appeal. Its much more complicated than that. I've yet to have anyone explain to me why Avis or Enterprise would buy a more expensive car from Toyota if a comparable one is available from the General. Companies cant be bothered with worryiing about image, they buy whatever presents the best deal.

    "a) If my numbers aren't current, provide the latest. "

    All those stats come from the same site and apparently they only release data every 6 months. I assume they are accurate but we have no way of knowing. for example, I am seeing tons of Prius used in fleets but that doesnt seem to be reflected on those charts. These new car sharing organizations only buy imports so I want to see if that starts to show up in future reports on fleet sales. In my area they buy Prius', Scions, Imprezas, Fits, etc. They arent retial but I have a feeling they arent counted as fleet sales.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "It's very simple, as long as the manufacture isn't losing money while selling cars to the fleet then it's all good, a sale is a sale anyway. However, once it start losing money and part of the reason is fleet sales then they'll find out very quickly that the world is a lot different when the kumbaya singing stops."

    a) I really dont know if MB and BMW lose money on fleet sales. I assume you do though since you are saying that only domestic makers fall in this category
    b) Techically speaking, GM loses money on everything it makes as of 2006. We really cant separate the "good" sales from the "bad" ones since they dont give you that level of detail in a financial report. We can assume that rental agency sales are like even less profitbale than GM's average car sale but that has more to do with GM's overall cost structure than the fleet sale. In other words, Toyota probably makes more profit on a fleet sale than GM makes on a retail sale because of its much lower overhead in the US.
    c) you have tailored the definition to fit my question, but there was a time when people would emphatically say that fleet sales exist for cars no one wants and the manufacturers are producing anyway. If that is (or was) accepted than Toyota, Hyundai and Nissan are making cars no one wants and forcing them down Enterprise's throat. You cant have it both ways. The Asians are more concerned about maintaining marketshare than maximizing profit on each sale. That is the same thing the Big 3 believed until recently. In 10 years you will see rental penetration rates at the import automakers that would've been unimaginable 10 years back. Even Toyota at 10% would've been hard to envision 10 years ago.
  • a) I really dont know if MB and BMW lose money on fleet sales. I assume you do though since you are saying that only domestic makers fall in this category

    In non-North American countries, MBZs are taxis, I would think that means fleet sales. I also see BMW 316s as rentals.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the bottom line is the imports don't need that market to generate sales
    and louis as you well know, vehicles supplied to rental cos. and/or muncipalities/government and even to corporations are NOT SOLD in any case. Just think that you were NYC and needed to buy 10000 sedans for use by selected city employees. You have a requirement that several different brands of cars would meet - LOW BIDDER wins (by law because it's public funds) and what do you think your price might be when you tell GM, or anybody that participates in this sham, that you are about to write a check for $150 million (10000 cars @ 15k apiece)? No - Impalas/Malibus, almost the entire Chrysler line, and a good portion of what FoMoCo produces are all given away in this manner, destroying; of course, the market value of the product and destroying the profit margins of those that participate heavily. For this reason the whole concept of those Detroit brands having REAL SALES that even approach those of those 'Japanese' brands is a joke - and all you have to do is look at each cos. bottom line to see why.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Toyota, Hyundai and Nissan are making cars no one wants and forcing them down Enterprise's throat
    not likely at all - because Enterprise, if they did get a decent volume price on those Camrys also knows that they will fetch premium dollars after being abused for a year or so. Selling fleet cars (particularily rental ones) are big money makers for the Enterprises of the world - and what do you think they sell most easily (and probably at a higher price) a lot full of Fusions/G6s/Malibus/Sonatas or a lot full of Camcordimas. Besides which, the rental customer given a choice between renting one or the other for about the same price is going to select the Malibu? As I said not likely.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Thats fair, it should go by EPA size class

    Really?

    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA defintion), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6

    Out go the Large Cars, like:
    Sonata
    Accord
    and yes, the (smaller than Accord, per EPA) Impala

    We must also then add EPA midsizes, such as:
    Dodge Caliber
    Hyundai Elantra
    Nissan Senta
    Nissan Versa
    Pontiac Grand Prix

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byEPAclass.htm

    And to those who claim "accord is only large without a sunroof"...well too bad! That seems to be the way EPA classifies the cars...check the link, there is no Accord listed in EPA midsize class. Besides, what is the interior volume of the (smaller than Accord) Impala with a sunroof?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA definition), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6


    Add Mazda6 to that list. Considered a "compact" car by the EPA. Or they used to be, anyways.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    The spirit of this discussion is talking about cars that are considered by people in the market for a midsize sedan. I think all of the cars that have been mentioned: Accord, G6, Mazda6, etc. would be cross-shopped by such people, and therefore fair game for the forum.
  • Really?

    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA defintion), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6

    Out go the Large Cars, like:
    Sonata
    Accord
    and yes, the (smaller than Accord, per EPA) Impala


    You know, I am actually okay with that. If it doesn't meet minimum internal dimensions, it should get the boot. If it exceeds those dimensions it should get booted as well.
Sign In or Register to comment.