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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    “the numbers are wrong”

    OK, to make sure we’re on the same page, I’ll take the Fusion V6 0-60 number from MT, and we’ll look at C&D for the rest.

    Fusion V6 6A – 7.2 sec, 21/29 mpg (MT)
    Altima I4 6M – 7.2 sec, 24/31 mpg (C&D)
    Altima I4 CVT – 7.4 sec, 23/29 mpg (C&D)
    Accord I4 5M – 7.5 sec, 26/34 mpg (C&D)

    Accord I4 5A – 8.1 sec, 24/34 mpg (C&D)
    Fusion I4 5M – 8.1 sec, 23/31 mpg (C&D)
    Fusion I4 5A – 8.8 sec, 23/30 mpg (est.)

    “Your personal experience with the 5M in the Accord doesn't really matter when we're comparing auto trannies.”

    Why can’t we compare an I4 5M Accord with the V6 6A Fusion? Look at the numbers, Fusion is very close to the import 4's. The manual-equipped Accord I4 is closer to the V6 Auto Fusion (0.3 seconds) than it is to the manual-equipped Fusion I4 (0.6 seconds). The Fusion V6 isn’t available in a manual, and can’t really be compared with other V6s as the automatic V6 versions of Accord, Camry and Altima are quicker by at least 0.6 seconds. It appears to me that the Fusion V6 is a very close match to the Altima 4 with either the 6-speed or the CVT and the manual Accord. The point was made that the V6 Fusion is considerably faster than competing 4-cylinders, and as the Accord 5M and Altima 6M and CVT show, that's just not the case.

    Also, look at the Fusion 6A versus Accord 5M mileage penalty: 5 city and 5 highway! Those are EPA numbers, not even taking into account Edmund’s forums posts of poor city mileage in late-model DT30s and posts of higher MPG in Accord I4’s (my city average has been 28-29, and I don’t drive lightly).

    So, it looks like choosing the V6 Fusion with the only available transmission (the 6A) over an I4 Accord with the 5M gives a less than 5% improvement in performance… but reduces fuel economy about 20%! At 15,000 miles per year, assuming gas stayes at $3, thats over $400 difference, or about $35 per month. That's if gas stays at $3 per gallon...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    That could very well be. With aggressive discounting by Ford/Mercury dealers on the Fusion and Milan (e.g. I recently saw a Milan advertised for under $15k) and the new, improved IIHS test scores for the Fulan plus positive reliability data from CR, they could very well be taking sales from the Sonata. Many people will choose an American brand over a foreign brand (especially one with a dearth of brand equity like Hyundai) without even trying the alternatives. Also there are Ford dealers in most small towns in the U.S.--not so with Hyundai dealers. For $15k, I would be very tempted to get a Milan over a Sonata if I were buying a mid-sized car right how.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    What you "said" was:

    It is not generally good for...the car buyer...that they have to discount heavily.

    What is the intent of this, if not to imply that the cheaper car actually costs more?

    I've looked at intellichoice before and their data is just garbage...and not just based on my deal. They are more than $2300 too high on the initial price of the Mazda6. There has been $2000 in rebates available for at least 6 months, yet they have a "target" price of about $300 above invoice. This model can be bought effortlessly at invoice less rebates all day long. That site also can not account for the value of things like 0% financing that has been available from time-to-time on the Fusion.

    Based on looking at edmunds predicted resale values for the 6 and Accord, I agree that on a 3 year lease the net cost is probably nearly the same. I'd assume the Sonata and Fusion would be similar as well. At more than 3 years, though, I think the lower initial cost models would have lower net cost.

    My point is the higher resale value is not going to offset the higher initial cost. Therefore resale value should end up being non-issue for most.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,211
    Why can’t we compare an I4 5M Accord with the V6 6A Fusion?

    Because you and I were originally comparing auto trannies. You threw a manual tranny Accord time in there saying it was for the 5A and it was way off. I'm also taking price into consideration. The V6 Fusion is more in line with an Accord I4 5A than the 5M when comparing an LX Accord to an SE Fusion. I'm leaving the Accord Value Package out of the mix because it is more or less a "stripper" model.

    I get your point about the Accord 5M but the fact is, many more buy the ATX. I would buy the 5M and you would buy the 5M but when I address a broader audience, like that on these forums, I like to stick with what I think the norm is. So yes the performance hit isn't all that much with the Accord 5M but, given price to performance as the criteria, I can't see too many people cross shopping that with the V6 Fusion since it comes only in ATX flavor.

    I also never like using numbers from different sources because there are too many variables that are different and can affect those numbers in big ways. So, if you average out the different times reported from different sources for the Fusion you get about 7.3 or 7.4 seconds. Agreed? That's nearly 1 second faster than the Accord which is "much faster" in my book.

    I get fools trying to race my Mustang all the time so I am an expert in this field. :P
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Just discovered this:

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/calc/CalculatorController

    Using their default values the Accord, Mazda6, Sonata and Fusion 36 mo. lease rates are all pretty close for the comparable versions I looked at. They are within about $5 per month of each other.

    However, using what I think is a more realistic initial price difference of $2500 between Mazda6 and Accord, the 6 came out about $50 per month less for the 4 cylinder versions that I compared...Accord SE vs. Mazda6 SVE. I also used 10,000 miles per year rather than the 15K default.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    The calculator doesn't take into account special lease deals. For example, right now there's a $199/month special (I believe nationwide) on both the Accord LX and Sonata GLS. I've seen $199/month or a little less with no money down advertised locally on the Sonata GLS. The calculator says the lease on the Sonata is $389/month. Quite a difference.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Let's agree to disagree. ;)

    From a dead stop, a manual 4-cyl Accord will hold its own against an auto V6 Fusion. They are close enough that it would come down to a match between the average drivers. In my experience from driving both cars, it is easier to get a good launch in my Accord manual than the Fusion 6A because in the automatic it was harder to get the perfect launch with just the right amount of wheelspin, without abusing the car. With the V6 auto it was either too much gas or not enough; manuals are easier in my opinion.

    Interstate races are much harder to judge. Did you account for reaction time, and how do you know what gear the manual Accord was pulling, etc.? Here, automatics have an advantage for the average driver. Example, if you pull up next to me cruising 55mph on the interstate and floor it, your car will likely grab second gear at high RPM for a breif burst of acceleration, while I'll hesitate to shift all the way down to second at that speed and fall behind.

    Baggs, the 7.9 second 0-60 time for the Accord I4 5A was posted on MSN Autos which frequently cites consumer reports. I agree, it is unusual for CR to get a better 0-60 time than C&D, but we are only talking about 0.2 seconds difference and that could have been testing conditions. Maybe C&D tested in CA at 75 degrees and CR tested in MA at 50 degrees. The 7.9 versus 8.1 second difference is minor, but I still took the slower C&D time instead.

    Besides, I'll bet than when the new Accord 4-cylinder automatic is introduced later this year, it'll run numbers similiar to the Altima, and both of them will be breathing down the Fusion's neck. With four cylinders! And, any improvements to the Fusion appear to be pretty far off.

    But as I've said before, they are both good cars, I almost bought the Fusion.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I've seen that Accord deal, but I think there is money required upfront??? I think the Sonata one, otoh, may be a "sign and drive"???

    I'm not a leaser, so don't know how those things really work, but I think the calculator maybe rolls eveything into the monthly payment??? Doubt that is enough to account for $190 per month difference, though.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Hyundai's new Lambda V6s (3.3L & 3.8L) currently can be found in various Hyundai and Kia applications, including the Sonata. Competent engines and flexible, as the Lambdas can be tuned to as high as 300hp (which is a likely candidate on the base engine of the upcoming luxury RWD sedan next year).

    I sit corrected, the source I was using made the architecture look very similar.

    The Theta I4s also can be found in many Hyundai and Kia applications, including the Sonata. Don't be confused, these are not the same as the GEMA engines. Hyundai is, however, receiving royalties for these I4s.

    So Hyundai has 2 2.4 liter 4 cylinder motors?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Did you read the links I posted earlier? Hyundai's Theta engine, used in the Sonata and Optima, is partly based on but not the same as the GEMA engine used by DCX et. al.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Did you read the links I posted earlier? Hyundai's Theta engine, used in the Sonata and Optima, is partly based on but not the same as the GEMA engine used by DCX et. al.

    Yeah I think I am confused because the GEMA sites say it was jointly developed, and on here it sounds like Hyundai made it and everyone is buying it from them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    You are not the first one to be confused by marketing hype vs. reality. ;) Hyundai didn't make it; there is common technology, designed by Hyundai, which all the GEMA partners can use, and add their own tweaks to. An interesting fact from the article posted earlier is that the Hyundai Theta engine plant isn't even part of GEMA, but the Theta engine does use block and intake technology from the GEMA project.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    What is the intent of this, if not to imply that the cheaper car actually costs more?
    there is no intent or even any implication - simply that any car that is generally sold at big discounts will, in fact, have a lesser resale value down the road. That is not good for the buyer only in that it reduces how much he/she might recover for the vehicle at trade-in time. It has nothing to do with Fusions/6s/Sonatas or anything in particular, just a simple statement saying that cheaper up front generally equals cheaper later. It is no secret that Honda and Toyota are hard to deal with especially if you are expecting 'Detroit' style discounts, but it is largely the reason why those cars tend to have high resale values - they cost more because they don't negotiate much. The guy that really gets screwed is that guy that goes out and buys a car when it first comes out, pays something closer to sticker, only to see the mfgr. rebate or finance at 0% in some sort of EOY clearance sale thereby making that car thousands less than what he paid.
    Resale value should be a primary issue for any car buyer under the proviso that he/she is not likely to keep a car more than about 3 or 5 years. Resale value starts becomings a non-issue once that car accumulated a bunch of miles and more age than that. And yes there are a number of examples where a cheaper car at purchase can and does
    really cost more - all depending on those kinds of things.
    My point thru this whole thread is that folks all the time point to a car that let's say costs them $3300.00 less new than Brand X or Brand Y, and then think they have actually saved all that money - to which I say 'well, yes you did, and no, you didn't.' And you are absolutely right, higher resale values will generally not offset the higher initial price (unless you bought a hybrid) and for whatever that real difference ends up being than that is really what it costs you to drive that Honda instead of something else - plus, of course, the time value of the extra money you had to borrow.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,436
    When comparing costs also take into account insurance and fuel.

    I comared a Mazda 6 to an Accord. The Accord was more expensive, but it saves $10 per month in gas and $10 per month for insurance.

    I bought the Accord, but if there was a 6 wagon with the 2.3 liter 4 I would have bought that. Love wagons.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "The guy that really gets screwed is that guy that goes out and buys a car when it first comes out, pays something closer to sticker, only to see the mfgr. rebate or finance at 0% in some sort of EOY clearance sale thereby making that car thousands less than what he paid."

    That is one of the things that steered me from the Fusion to the Accord. When I saw that I could get an Accord for under invoice, I was pretty confident that was the rock-bottom price; it was as good as I would be able to get on an Accord. The new Accords will be out in a few months, the 07s will be gone, and we likely will not see such pricing on Accords again until the end of the next generations life cycle. There is very little chance that in a few years my resale value will be less because Honda will be selling them much cheaper.

    The Fusion had a larger discount, but there was no gaurantee that the deal I was seeing would not have been eclipsed by some larger rebates, or 0% financing, plus a free dell computer, and iPod, or who knows what else they'll come up with to sell the things, and like captain said it'll drive the resale down faster.

    That happened to me when I bought my last Ford, but I didn't even pay anywhere near sticker! I thought I had a screamin' deal on my hands... paid invoice, less rebates, and got zero percent. The next year, the rebates doubled, zero percent financing was back, they had lowered the MSRP AND the invoice, and Ford had made standard some things which I had paid extra for. Guess what happened to my resale value?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Resale value should be a primary issue for any car buyer under the proviso that he/she is not likely to keep a car more than about 3 or 5 years.

    That is where you lose me. Honestly, I am trying to understand why you think resale value is so all important.

    If the net cost is less for the cheaper car or even if it is about the same, why buy something you don't really want, just because the resale value is higher? For example, if after considering everything, excluding price and resale value, one likes the Fusion better than the Accord, why buy the Accord?
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Resale value is unknown. There are three distinct possibilities:

    Scenario one: The Fusion continues to sell well for the next 5+ years, without having increased rebates or fleet sales. Also, the LONG TERM reliability proves to be on par with Honda (or Honda reliability falters). In this case, the Fusion will resale favorably compared to the Accord, and since it was less costly to purchase, will prove to be the better value. In the end, it really will cost more to drive a Honda, and the "Japanese Myth" theory is confirmed.

    Scenario two: The Fusion continues to sell fairly well for the next 5+ years, with minimal rebates and fleet sales. Long term reliability is not too far behind Honda. The difference in resale vales between the two cars will be roughly equal to the difference in their purchase prices when new, taking the time value of money into effect, making the resale issue a wash. No car is the better value than the other.

    Scenario three: (JUST ANOTHER SCENARIO) The Fusion doesn't continue to sell as well through the next 5+ years; maybe Ford doesn't update it enough, maybe the competition makes great leaps and bounds. In response to lower sales Ford increases rebates, and/or sells to fleets. OR, the LONG TERM reliability isn't as good as Honda. The steep discounts on the future new Fusions, the older Fusions having reliability issues as they age, and used Fusions being dumped on the market at low prices, or any combination of those, come together to make a used Fusion worth considerably less than a similiar Honda. In that theoretical scenario, the resale difference between a Fusion and a Honda would be more than the difference in purchase price, making the Honda a better value. Like my last Ford, the costs of owning the Ford would be much greater than the costs of owning a competitor.

    Again, no one knows about future resale around or after 3-5 years from now.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    no one knows about future resale around or after 3-5 years from now
    absolutely true - but what we do have is about 15 or 20 years of established history whether that be Ford's history or Honda's. Resale values as used in those 'cost of ownership' studies are only estimates, even those residual values that are used to calculate lease costs are 'estimates' on the lessors part. Tomorrow we might have the greatest en masse sequence of engine failures ever known to mankind, with every Honda 4 banger blowing head gaskets simultaneuously. ;) At that point, those particular cars will certainly have resale value problems, wouldn't they? And every unfortunate Honda owner that happened to invest 20k or so of their hard earned money would experience a helluva financial loss, because now this car that they thought they could sell used for let's say 10k is now only worth half of that. Kind of reminds me of GMs dubious flirtation with diesels back in the first energy (gas price) crisis. Those engines darn near did all blow up simultaneously, and just like magic those resale values went into the dumper.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    why buy something you don't really want
    and all truths are self evident - you should never buy anything that you don't really want.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Kind of reminds me of GMs dubious flirtation with diesels back in the first energy (gas price) crisis. Those engines darn near did all blow up simultaneously, and just like magic those resale values went into the dumper.

    The point being it was a crummy diesel, not that diesels are crummy. Mercedes and VW diesels have exceptionally high resale values, even still.

    As Honda and Nissan roll out their diesel mid-sized sedans, we will see who follows.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you're making this comment to someone who really believes that the diesel/biodiesel will supplant the gasoline engine within the next 5-10 years - and of course, anything that is obscenely economical and durable will have great resale values. That small block V8 diesel I was talking about, was a little worse than merely 'crummy; however.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Unless money means nothing to you, it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years. However in my case, I keep a car at least 10 years, sometimes much longer. Thus, resale value's importance is less of an important factor in the purchase decision. My three last new car purchases were kept 22 years, 13 years, and 11 years respectively.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Why didn't you include the Sonata? It's sales are down 31% from last year at this time. See a trend? Also, Fusion sales to fleets are pretty low according to Ford and Hyundai just made some news about selling in high volumes to fleets IIRC.

    I just didn't feel like looking them up. perhaps its (probably) just me buying into an old sterotype, but i don't consider hyundai in the same leauge.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    If you read the latest sales news from Ford, a quick search will take you to several of them, they are reporting that fleet sales are down 5% for either the year or the month of April, I can't remember which it is.

    Maybe you forgot Ford removed Taurus fleet completely, so let's think about this logically. Ford operated 100% of Taurus to fleet this time last year, and fleet sales YOY are only down by 5% even with the removal of Taurus fleet, you do the math. For a good part of 06, Taurus fleet led in Ford car sales monthly, ran normally from 15-20K units/month.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Resale value is unknown. There are three distinct possibilities:

    so true. One thing nobody has mentioned is the condition and mileage of the car. If you buy any car, put 45k miles a year on it, and trade it in after 3 years with 135k miles on it, you're going to seriously hurt the resale value. I don't car if its a honda, nissan, toyota, or bmw. You also have to consider the condition of the car. personally, if it knew I was going to be putting a lot of miles on a car, I'd buy a cheap as I could.

    But to me, the whole argument is moot. Your going to pay more for an asian car. Your going to pay more to buy it, pay more to maintain it, and pay more to fix it when it needs fixed. And if the dollar does't strenghen against the yen, your either going to pay even more, or the asian car companies will continue to see their profits decline.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Unless money means nothing to you, it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years. However in my case, I keep a car at least 10 years, sometimes much longer. Thus, resale value's importance is less of an important factor in the purchase decision. My three last new car purchases were kept 22 years, 13 years, and 11 years respectively.

    I think resale value is still important 10 or more years down the road.

    In 1992 the Taurus was the top rated car. I happened to buy a 92 Accord. After 12 years, and 140k miles, I decided to sell it and buy a new Accord. I sold the car in less than one hour for $1000 more than the KBB value ($5,000). Do you think I would have gotten close to that much for a 92 Taurus? I don't think so. I also think an 07 Accord will still be worth considerably more in ten years, than an 07 Fusion will be.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    if you found somebody to pay 5000 (or 6000 if you're saying kbb was 5k) for a 12 year old car, consider yourself lucky. you found a moron who would have overpaid for anything.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years"

    The key word is plan. Things happen. Say you buy a new car without considering resale value because you plan to drive it until the wheels fall off, but in the third year you accidentally total it. All of a sudden, resale value becomes very important. Say your cars value as determined by the insurance company is $8,200 while a competeting car in the same shape would have brought $11,400. It becomes an important factor again.

    Congratulations on keeping your cars for that long. You are a much wealthier person because of your restraint.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    if you found somebody to pay 5000 (or 6000 if you're saying kbb was 5k) for a 12 year old car, consider yourself lucky.

    The KBB on the car was actually $3,800. I sold it for $5,000.

    you found a moron who would have overpaid for anything.

    No, he would not have paid that much for "anything". He knew exactly what he was looking for. He wanted a dependable car for his daughter to drive to college in. He got exactly that.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    paying 6000 for a 12yr old car with 150,000 miles on it is just stupid. at least when talking about a mid size family sedan. 6000 will buy you something 1/2 as old with half the miles on it.

    just the idea of paying kbb, let alone 1 grand over it, would make me question anybodies intelligence. paying 1k over KBB is about the same as going to a dealership and offering to pay more than msrp. If i were you, i would have tried to sell this person everything i own.

    As P.T. barnum said, there's one born every second.
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