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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why does everyone inflate their fuel economy number here, well not everyone because you didn't. Then if someone reports true numbers that don't meet some imagined fantasy number there must be something wrong with the car or they blame an aggressive driving style. Folks, the lower to middle 30's is Civic territory and in no way will a twice as powerful, much heavier car approach that unless one chooses to put their life at risk by driving 50 mph on an interstate.

    Quite a double-standard you are bringing to the table, isn't it? You accuse people that are actually happy with mileage (getting old EPA claims, for example) of lying, saying we're inflating our numbers, when it could just as easily be you smearing Honda because of the problems you claim to have with your Civic.

    My last beach trip (75 MPH through hilly Alabama) returned 37 MPG in my Accord with 166 horses and an automatic. I've had 2 trips on the same route (I-65 from Birmingham, AL to Bay Minette, AL then US Hwy 59 from Bay Minette to Gulf Shores) where I saw 40 MPG (39.96 and 40.92). I run with 35/33 PSI in my tires (F/R) and have no modifications on my Accord that just clicked to 30,000 miles. For the record, I meet (pretty much on the nose) the old EPA standards in my 1996 Accord LX (2.2L 130hp 4-sp Auto) that now has just under 180k miles. 30-31 MPG is normal in my 21mi hwy/5mi suburban commute. When doing more driving in the metro, I drop to 27 or so, since I still have a 12 mile drive into the city. My air filters stay clean (change them every 30k).

    Just because you didn't achieve the numbers, or your car didn't deliver numbers at or above the old EPA standards, doesn't mean that others do not.

    Calling other posters liars (which is exactly what you are doing in your post) is unwarranted and just plain childish, as far as I'm concerned.

    TheGrad

    image
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Chill grad :) It's hard to believe, until you see the numbers for yourself. :surprise: I can definitely relate. :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Still, being called untruthful is something I don't care to tolerate, thankyaverymuch! :sick:

    Until you have experience with the car being talked about, it's probably best to not say you don't believe another owner's experience, true? :)
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Thought I would add my 2 cents....

    I had a 2005 Chevy Aveo hatchback, and consistantly got 25 MPG town and 31 MPG highway... less than the EPA estimates. On the Edmunds Aveo forum, there were folks claiming to get 41+ hwy and in excess of 30 MPG city. Some on that site would accuse folks like me of driving like "Lead-Foot Larry", but in my case, I also had a 06 Toyota Carolla that did approach 40 MPG hwy and the upper 20's-low 30's in the city, very close to the estimated mileage.

    I replaced the Aveo with a 08 Altima 2.5SL and consistantly get 27 mpg city and over 31 hwy...better that the EPA estimate, I believe. Since I didn't change my driving habits, its obvious to me that there is a certain variance within models as it relates to mpg, and I also suspect that there are a few people out there that simply don't know how to work a calculator, even though I think they are few and far between.

    Frankly, if I was an automobile manufacturer, I would seek out folks that claim incredible gas mileage, certify that it was indeed correct in a controlled environment, and then use those examples in advertising. With gas at all-time highs, it seems that it would be a very effective method of selling cars...Since no one has done that, it tends to make me wonder about incredibly high mileage claims...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    I would not be surprised if there were some laws prohibiting carmakers from touting the FE of their cars using examples from the public. And consider all the grief Toyota (Prius) and some other manufacturers got from some people just for posting the (old) EPA numbers on their window stickers!

    It is possible to get far above EPA estimates for FE, and there are the so-called "hypermilers" who know all sorts of tricks for achieving those kind of numbers. IMO many of those techniques are unsafe or at best discourteous of other drivers, so I won't use them. But I've found over the years that just by doing some easy, simple things like anticipating stops, using a light foot on the gas, obeying speed limits, reducing idling time, coasting as much as possible, keeping the car in tune and tires properly inflated, I can regularly achieve over EPA estimates--even the old ones. What I find more curious is when someone says, for example, "I only get 18 mpg in my Civic on the highway." Then I have to wonder about what speed they're going, and if they know how to calculate mpg.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    It is possible to get far above EPA estimates for FE, and there are the so-called "hypermilers" who know all sorts of tricks for achieving those kind of numbers. IMO many of those techniques are unsafe or at best discourteous of other drivers, so I won't use them. But I've found over the years that just by doing some easy, simple things like anticipating stops, using a light foot on the gas, obeying speed limits, reducing idling time, coasting as much as possible, keeping the car in tune and tires properly inflated, I can regularly achieve over EPA estimates--even the old ones. What I find more curious is when someone says, for example, "I only get 18 mpg in my Civic on the highway." Then I have to wonder about what speed they're going, and if they know how to calculate mpg.

    I know what you mean. As for me, my highway numbers are achieved with the cruise set at or above the speed limit (usually 75 mph in a 70 zone). If the numbers you get aren't keeping up with traffic, they should be considered anomolous (if they leave behind traffic or are the slowest car on the road, both apply as mileage numbers that should be given an asterisk).

    Obviously there will be different production variances where one person would get different numbers even in the exact same conditions. If they are constantly seeing a pattern they should start looking at other reasons (commute length, tendency to let a car warm up, etc...). One example applies to my dad; on the same (same house to downtown Bham) commute in his practically identical-to-mine, yet averaged 6 MPG less. He had an obvious tendency of "pulsing" the gas pedal (accelerating to 70, coasting to 65, then accelerating back to 70). When asked about it though he denies doing it!!

    Just something for all to think about!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    If the numbers you get aren't keeping up with traffic, they should be considered anomolous...

    So if the majority of drivers on a given freeway are going 75+ with a 70 limit, the guy doing 70 in the right lane is anomolous?? I'd say he/she is the only sensible one on that road.

    Fortunately I drive in a state where a lot of people drive the speed limit. It's those who drive way under the limit, or way over the limit, that are the problem IMO.

    When more people find out that high speed uses more gas, with gas up near $4.00 a gallon in some places, I think we'll see more people sticking close to speed limits.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017
    He had an obvious tendency of "pulsing" the gas pedal (accelerating to 70, coasting to 65, then accelerating back to 70).
    My stepmother used to drive like that. She did it unconciously and us kids used to laugh about it in the backseat sometimes. When my dad called her on it she would say he was crazy. I consistently get the old EPA mileage, both city/hwy, on my Mazda6. I drive aggresivedly once in awhile if I'm in a hurry but most of the time drive fairly conservative. Expressway driving is usually with cruise set about 5-7mph above speed limit and that puts me in about the 60th percentile I think. By that I mean that about 40% are passing me and I am staying with or slowly passing about 60%.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I didn't mean in an increment that small... the guy going 55 when traffic is going 75 is sort-of what I'm talking about.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I think I would define "sensible" as going the current speed of traffic, whatever that speed might be. Attempting to go 55 mph in a 55 mph zone while everyone else is going 65 mph is nothing but dangerous. You might not agree with what others are doing, and you might be legally correct, but the 55 mph guy is still the road hazard, and unless he is willing to go with the flow, he should find an alternate road to travel..

    Compare our driving to Europe. Most Americans could not survive driving on the German Autobahn. I can tell you from personal experience that left lane riding is not tolerated there (while it is practically considered a "right" here), and regardless how fast you are going, there is always someone else going faster. There is a phenomenal amount of traffic on the Autobahn, but accidents are significantly less there, probably due to the much more stringent licensing standards....unlike here in the USA, where all you have to do is show up at the DMV to get a license...

    As for high gas prices slowing folks up, don't count on it. Gas is considerably more in Europe, but they are the ones with high speed corridors. What IS different there is that they demand fuel efficient vehicles, including diesels that perform very well, with lots of HP and torque. Overall, the USA does not have the selection of vehicles that other areas of the world have access to, and that's nothing less than a shame...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    But what is the "current speed of traffic"? Say you're on a four-lane expressway. Lots of folks are going the limit or a few mph within it. One or two are putzing along at far below the limit. Quite a few are zipping along at 10-30 mph over the limit. Should everyone speed up to match the speeders? Should the speeders slow down to match those going at or near the limit? Or should we let those who wish to follow traffic laws do that, assuming they are driving safely (e.g. using the right lane(s)), and let those who wish to scoff at those laws do that, in the left lane(s), and if the DPS folks want to go after them, they will?

    Or should we let those who want to blow off our traffic laws own the roads, and everyone else be damned, as you suggest?

    I hope you don't live anywhere close to Minnesota.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Look, I suggested nothing about letting anyone "blow off our traffic laws". Unless you are in law enforcement, it isn't up to you to do anything except report violations, and even that isn't required.

    All I was stating was the obvious...You sound like the kind of guy who rides in the left lane going exactly the speed limit just to show those "criminals" breaking the speed limit that you are going to do something about it.

    I made no attempt to defend speeding at all. In fact, I do drive the speed limit...40 years of driving with no traffic tickets. I was simply stating the fact that anyone impeding the accepted flow of traffic by going at a slower rate is a hazard, regardless what the speed limit is...

    But, you made a good point....most highway driving isn't so simple as two groups going two distinct speeds on two lanes of highway. There will always be idiots trying to set a new speed record out there...both fast and slow. The best thing we can do is attempt to get out of the way of these folks.

    Chill out, dude!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017
    I drive in Minneapolis a lot(in fact I'll be driving up this Sunday) and I do notice that people tend to drive closer to the speed limit in Minnesota. However, I've also noticed that people there also tend to linger in the left lane of freeways and don't seem to know that they should get over to let faster traffic by. In Illinois, it is now against the law to drive in the left lane unless you are actively passing. Obviously, it doesn't apply when traffic is bumper to bumper. Anyway they have always taught this in driver's training(at least in MI and IL).
    How much this offense is enforced I don't know. It is also against the law to drive in rain strong enough to cause you to turn on your windshield wipers without your headlights on. Again, I don't know how well this is enforced.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    Rubbish!!! While I am vocally NOT happy with some of the mechanical and quality aspects of our Civic I have never complained about the fuel economy. That it doesn't achieve the "old" EPA posted numbers (40 highway/30 city) doesn't mean a thing to me because I didn't expect it to ( I lied, I sort of thought/hoped it would at first but was proved wrong after a few tanks). The fact that the "new" EPA numbers( 36 highway/25 city) almost exactly mirror our actual mileages tells me something and it should tell others something also...a 2008 Civic will now match the estimates unlike before. I did not call you or others here with fantastic mileage numbers liars but I have considered you are self deluded and until Edmunds places a "believe all you read" requirement in place in order to use their sites I won't. Feel free to apply that to my posts too, I won't be as offended as you seem to be. Double standards???, I really don't know what you mean by this one.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    Notes to self: #1 Do not challenge (even generally) suspicious fuel economy numbers. There is someone somewhere who believes he/she is achieving them and they can get indignant.
    Note #2 modify or suspend your belief that cars have more or less fixed fuel consumption rates under given conditions. The potential fuel economy variance within specific brands and models should now be considered to be infinite (anything is now possible, the sky is the limit) with only the driver as the defining variable. Using this new philosophy it should be possible for driver A to get 45 mpg @ 80 mph and driver B to get 30 mpg @ 65 mph with the same style car. Driver A is in Accord (pun intended) with his car. Obviously driver B does not know how to manage this variable. Strange...but true.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I did not call you or others here with fantastic mileage numbers liars but I have considered you are self deluded and until Edmunds places a "believe all you read" requirement in place in order to use their sites I won't.

    Hmm, not calling me a liar, yet you don't believe what I've posted is the truth and saying so willingly. That's talking out of two sides of your mouth if I've ever heard it.

    Post 9096, which you made, is just one giant mockery of what I posted in trying to make sense to you and other readers. Thanks, for that.

    Maybe I should take pictures of my mileage today on my beach trip, would that make things more believeable? 37mpg is typical with cruise at 73-77mph, and yes the OLD EPA estimates are 24/34mpg, with new ones at 21/31. In mixed driving (about 60% interstate, 40% metro Birmingham) I see 29-30 or so, sometimes 28, sometimes 31, depending on how often I end up running around town.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    Yeah, I'm good with sarcasm as per post 9096 and even though it wasn't directed specifically at you,you seem to have taken it to heart. Further I am not obliged to believe you or anyone else on an open forum about anything let alone gas mileage The self deluded term was me trying to be polite and NOT call anyone a liar but you seem to have taken that to heart as well. I'm done with this topic and I'm sure so is the admistrator so motor on. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    You sound like the kind of guy who rides in the left lane going exactly the speed limit just to show those "criminals" breaking the speed limit that you are going to do something about it.

    Do you know any good tips on the stock market? Because it seems you are able to know things as fact without any evidence whatsoever.

    FYI, I am not one of those people who drives in the left lane at the speed limit to inhibit other drivers. But I do tend to drive close to the speed limit. I think that is safer, it sets a good example for my kids (one of whom is getting his permit soon), it saves gas, and I find I am more relaxed (as in "chilled out") at the end of my trip because I'm not worried about getting pulled over by a trooper and not darting in and out of traffic at super-legal speeds trying to pick up a minute or two.

    And you did say that anyone who doesn't want to keep up with people who are speeding (10 mph over the limit, it was) should get off the road and find another one. I find that kind of attitude narrow-minded, belligerent, and selfish.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Remember this post when they are scraping the remains of your car off the front end of a Mack truck one day.

    Also, please READ what I said...which was,

    Attempting to go 55 mph in a 55 mph zone while everyone else is going 65 mph is nothing but dangerous. You might not agree with what others are doing, and you might be legally correct, but the 55 mph guy is still the road hazard, and unless he is willing to go with the flow, he should find an alternate road to travel.

    I made no suggestion that slower traffic should not have the same rights as any speeder. It is, however, a safety hazard going slower than the traffic flow, pure and simple.

    You may not like that statement, but it doesn't change the facts of the laws of physical dynamics, human response times, etc.

    As for me, this forum seems to be dominated by a few that want to argue and complain about everyone else's comments that they don't personally agree with. Funny, I thought the intent was to share ideas and experiences so that all users could get a better perspective on things.

    Therefore, you can have it to yourselves and continue onward with your little "bitching" session. I am outta here!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Well, you're right. I don't like being told that I don't have the right to drive my car at or near the speed limit just because other drivers are driving over the speed limit. As we've discussed, it's not a simple matter of one car going at/near the speed limit and everyone else going much faster than the speed limit. There's usually some of each on the road. Why can't we all share the road together? Those who want to drive near the limit can stay right, except to pass or make a left turn/exit. Those who feel the need for speed can stay left. A lot more civil than telling people who don't want to exceed speed limits to find another road, don't you think?

    Funny though you should mention physical dynamics and human response times. Those are two reasons to keep speed down on the highway. The faster a car is moving, the greater the risk of injury in a collision and the less time the driver has to react, as a function of distance travelled.

    The purpose of this forum is to share ideas and experiences. But when someone states that those who don't want to exceed speed limits have no right to stay on the same road as those who exceed them, you shouldn't be surprised if someone disagrees with that opinion.

    Maybe it is time to return to our discussion of mid-sized sedans, though? :sick:
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    No driver should feel forced to go over the speed limit. But he should at least stay in the right lane (the right lane ;) ). If you can't maintain the speed limit though, you should get off the interstate, period. I will go over the speed limit (80mph in a 70mph) most of the time, but only if I think it's safe to do so.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's get back to the cars now, please.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Most highways have minimum posted speeds to lower the speed differential between the fast cars and the slow cars. Most highways around me have 3 lanes, I would expect slower drivers to be in the right or middle lane, as well as trucks/obese vehicles/trailers.
    On the way to work there was a light duty full size van with 10 full size passengers and it was quite obvious it was over payload as it weaved around in the left lane struggling to maintain directional control.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    lilengineerboy- lane, as well as trucks/obese vehicles/trailers.

    What is an obese vehicle? Is that an engineering term?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The self deluded term was me trying to be polite and NOT call anyone a liar but you seem to have taken that to heart as well.

    If self-deluded is polite, I'd hate to see rude. :sick:

    On a different note, I saw big loads of 2009 Sonatas trucking out of Montgomery on my trip to the gulf coast yesterday.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    No more personal comments. Let it go.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    What is an obese vehicle? Is that an engineering term?

    Vehicles that have GVWRs that should classify them as commercial vehicles but instead they get used to haul kids to soccer practice.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    backy: Why can't we all share the road together? Those who want to drive near the limit can stay right, except to pass or make a left turn/exit. Those who feel the need for speed can stay left.

    me: I think you're thinking to simplistically on this one, as the case was that everyone was driving one speed - say 65mph in a 55mph zone, except for a few cars in the right lane going 55 mph.
    This is inherently dangerous if the traffic volume s fairly heavy. Fo instance if I'm in the right-lane with a stream of cars going 65mph and the left lane is moving at 65 mph, and we come up on a car or 2 in the right lane at 55 mph, all the cars iat 65 mph in the right lane will need to change lanes into the already fairly heavy traffic in the leftlane. They are not going to just slowup and drive 55 mph all of a sudden.

    So if you get on a highway where the right and left lanes are moving at 65 or 70 mph, and you or another person or 2 decide to drive 55 mph in the right lane, you still are going to cause problems and increase the danger. Causing people to change lanes (blind-spot issues) is the danger. Drive with traffic, not too slow and not too fast.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    Although I will admit that I occasionally drive over the speed limit (usually only if the majority of other traffic is doing so) I have to side with the people driving at the speed limit on this one.

    If I am speeding and I come up behind someone driving at the limit I feel that I'm the one who should be inconvenienced and have to slow down until it is safe to change lanes and pass.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Yes. The way I look at it, I have no "right" to break the law by exceeding speed limits. If I choose to do so, (and I do that sometimes :blush: ), it's unreasonable for me to expect others to collaborate with me in breaking the law. But it is reasonable for me to expect them to drive safely (even though one could say that by speeding, I'm not driving as safely as I could). So if others are driving the limit in the right lane, I can just pass them when it's safe to do so. No big deal. I might have to slow down for a bit before I can pass. So what?

    Also, if traffic is so heavy that it is difficult to pass someone going the limit in the right lane, then I wonder how safe it is to be driving at 10+ over the limit?

    Part of the problem is, today's mid-sized cars (an attempt to get back on topic!) are so powerful, even the I4s, that you can find yourself cruising at 80 before you know it. Gotta keep that eye on the speedo.
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