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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Are you going to wait to get the 2009 Malibu until there are larger discounts/rebates, so the financial picture after 5-7 years will be more comparable to that of the Accord? That seemed to be an important part of your buying decision.

    Civic is adding VSC for 2009, as an option at least.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    It depends on how much more I like it than the others. If I like it much better, I won't wait that long. There might be another $1000 conquest rebate coming on the 2009s after the 2008s are gone since the vast majority of Malibu buyers are current GM vehicle owners.

    If I keep it for 7 years instead of 5, the resale difference will be less.
    If they don't overproduce them and try to force sales increases with big rebates, then the resale may be better than expected.
    Maybe they should just accept the fact that this car will not sell 400K a year like a Camry or Accord and not dump them on the market with $3000 rebates like Hyundai would do and what they did with the old Malibu and fleet sales.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    The IIHS recently released a report on crash tests on several mid-sized sedans. The good news was that they all got a "Good" score for frontal impact, and all but the Optima got a "Good" on the side impact test. The Optima got "Acceptable" on the side test because there is the possibility of a fractured pelvis for the driver. The bad news is that only the Optima got "Good" for rear impact, only two (Avenger and Sebring) scored "Acceptable", and the rest scored "Marginal" or "Poor" on rear impact. Which is surprising since it's not that big a deal anymore to design seats and head restraints that protect necks in rear-end crashes.

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr041008.html
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    With the recent strikes affecting production of the Malibu, the odds that it won't be overproduced in the near future look pretty good. And GM still has the Malibu Classic to sell to fleets--until that model is retired anyway.

    Maybe when the new Malibu reaches the end of its life (or becomes the next "Malibu Classic"), there will be big rebates on it also. It's a brand-new model now, so no need to ramp up the rebates just yet. I'm seeing discounting in my local area, though.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Civic is adding VSC for 2009, as an option at least.

    Took 'em long enough. The Elantra beat them by a year. Now maybe a Civic is worth considering when I buy this fall.

    Used to be Honda was ahead of the game...how'd they let Hyundai get an edge on them?
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    What is VSC?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Used to be Honda was ahead of the game...how'd they let Hyundai get an edge on them?

    Mazda offered stability control in the Mazda3 two years before the Civic. However, there still is no DSC in the 2008 Mazda6 :confuse: Apparently, the new 09 Mazda6 will have it.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    VSC: Vehicle Stability Control
    DSC: Dynamic Stability Control

    Many mfgrs call "stability control" many different things. Those are two acronyms that mean the same thing.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    How did Honda let Hyundai get the edge? By producing one of the most expensive "small" (now medium sized) cars in the class with the least amount of standard equipment as compaired to the Elantra. By that I mean beyond the obligatory power windows (although the DX didn't even have that), steering, and brakes the Civic doesn't have stability control, heated outside mirrors, traction control, XM or Sirius radio (except bundled with the expensive in dash nav. or a dealer installed package) fog lamps (except as a dealer installed option), multi-function trip computer, (on Elantra SE) heated front seats (on Elantra SE with an option package) and probably a few more things I overlooked. Hyundai has some these items on the cheapest model, most of the others standard on their SE model and the rest at least optional.
  • oceana143oceana143 Posts: 38
    I like both the Malibu and Altima with a slight edge to the Altima for styling. Does anyone know if the 4 cylinder Altima will have stability control for 2009? Not having it is a deal breaker for me.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    I'd prefer to see the 4-cyl with stability control. it's be great with it...they've got such torquey engines that their CVTs can drop the cruise RPMs down to 2000 or below sometimes, even at highway speeds. Good for fuel economy. ;)

    Not having ESC is a deal-breaker for me. Sometimes I get stuck driving in garbage, and being in it for an hour or more doesn't fill me with confidence...
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Forget it, the Civic DX, you don't even get a radio...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Did you see that GM announced the 2008 Malibu LTZ will be available with the I4 and 6AT? So now you won't have to wait as long to get a Malibu with that powertrain, if that is the way you go. Starting price is over $26k though...
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    I knew about the LTZ coming out now, but I still would get a 2009 anyway because factory bluetooth doesn't start until 2009 models. The 2009s should be at dealers by the end of June and I'm not in a huge hurry. I might even wait another 6 months to see what the updated 2010 Camrys and Fusions look like since those could be out very early in 2009.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Isn't the Fusion going to be updated for 2009 (this fall)? It will be 3 years old then.

    Why do you think 2009 Malibus will be at dealers in June, when the 2008s didn't appear until last November? If 2009s will be available in June, I wonder why GM went to the trouble of just now introducing a new powertrain for the LTZ for the 2008 MY--which ends in less than two months?
  • karsickkarsick Posts: 312
    My guess is that GM is trying to squeeze 1 or 2 more mpg's out of the car, since I'd guess that's the first spec people want to know about when car shopping now. :confuse:

    I recall in the 70's that the MPG ratings figured very prominently in most car ads (and probably went a long way in influencing all my car buying decisions since, regardless of fuel prices)
  • karsickkarsick Posts: 312
    Would you consider a fuel-efficient 30-40mpg, unibody FWD, four-door with hatch, 4cyl (gas or turbodiesel, auto or manual) vehicle that's under 3500lbs, with class-leading passenger room, styled by Peter Horbury of recent Volvo fame?

    What if it came with a long wheelbase option with seating for 8, yet was shorter than most midsizers?

    I'm referring to the Ford Tourneo Connect, a vehicle I fell in love with during a visit to England. It's sold primarily as a commercial vehicle in Europe, but I really believe its no-nonsense utilitarian 'style' would have LOTS of appeal stateside. Think of it as a modern-day VW Microbus, with none of the silly sporty/luxo pretense we get from any current vehicle here.

    Ford.... stop it with the overweight 4wd V6 slushbox 16mpg crossovers you love so much, and get this thing federalized! ;)

    link:
    http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/tourneoconnect07/-/-/-/-/-/-

    I'd take a lonnnng look at this if I was in the market for a traditional midsize car today.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    They delayed the Fusion update. Now it's going to be a 2010 model, but may be a very early 2010 model that could be out in January.
    GM is almost done taking orders on 2008 Malibus. They should start taking orders on 2009s by the end of the month and start building 2009s sometime in June. So the very first 2009s could hit the lots before the end of June or else July.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    The 2010 Fusion rolls off the line in December, on sale in January. It should be at the LA Auto Show. New 2.5L I4, hybrid, 6 speed trannies, new front end, new interior. ESC added for 2009. More power and better mileage from the V6 but it's not clear if it will be a 240 hp 3.0L, the standard 265 hp 3.5L or both.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Well, FoMoCo's partner, Mazda, just released official pictures and engine/tranny choices for their Mazda6. It looks much better then the spy photos I must say. Mazda will be using their 3.7L V6 built in Japan with 273hp and 270tq and also using their newly developed 2.5L I4 with around 170hp. The I4 will get your choice of a 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto, and the V6 gets the 6 speed auto
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    excerpts from the news release

    all-new MAZDA6 sports sedan will launch later this year, with an expected on-sale date in late summer, 2008.

    the 2009 MAZDA6 was designed and engineered for the needs, wants and desires of the North American customer.

    (that doesn't sound so good to me)

    As on every Mazda, balance, dynamics and on-road feel ... will set the MAZDA6 apart from its competition.

    (that sounds better)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Mazda will be using their 3.7L V6 built in Japan with 273hp and 270tq and also using their newly developed 2.5L I4 with around 170hp.

    Let's not get too hasty with those numbers yet. The power is assumed but we don't know that the engine will be built in Japan like the CX-9's. Ford has the capability to build the 3.7 here in Ohio. I'm not saying the aren't using the Japan built 3.7 but it would make more sense for them to use the one built here so keep costs down.

    One other thing I noticed which is a HUGE disappointment to me is the lack of a manual tranny for the V6 models. Those get ATX with sport shift only. You can still row your gears with the I4 though. Seeing as Mazda couldn't keep V6 models with MTX in stock when this car was first introduced 5 years ago I would have thought that drivetrain combo would have been a no-brainer. :confuse:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    The official press release from Mazda only mentions the automatic with the V6, but specifically does NOT say that it's the ONLY transmission offered. Two different sources I've seen mention a 6-speed manual available with the V6 as well.

    I'll wait to see the car in the showroom with an options list.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    I have read from Mazda salespeople on these forums that the stick did not sell all that well in the midsize Mazda6(both I4 and V6)and that resale was a lot lower.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I believe it was also specifically stated that the manual V6 did not sell after a few enthusiasts initially bought them.

    The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual. Since only Americans feel there is a need for a V6 in a car such as this, I guess that is why no manual. With the 4 cyl, they can just use the manual that the rest of the world gets.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The clips that hold the air filters on tend to break when you try to remove them. More annoying then anything else.

    I have tried twice (2005,2007) to get a Mazda6 V6/stick and both times been put on a waiting list (or offered the opportunity to take yellow or purple one on the lot). I was not so excited about the yellow '05 or the purple '07 so that didn't leave me with a whole lot of choices. They had a number of 4cyl/5speed base (VE?) models which at that point had single disc CD players and dealer add-ons for satellite radio ($480), 10 hp less than the Accord 4 cyl, and slightly worse mileage.

    The MS6, which I wish I could've bought, was just out of my price range.

    The MS6 was my first choice, the Mazda6 V6 was my second choice, and I wound up with a 4 cyl Accord EX stick, which wasn't really even on the list.

    The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual.

    I think this is true, but those same Americans that don't want an stick are choosing their bland midsize sedan based primarily on price, so without features that differentiate them in the marketplace (AWD - Subaru, 4 cyl power- Honda, etc) there is little to separate them from being a commodity. I think if you make a sport sedan, you would want enthusiasts to buy it.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think if you make a sport sedan, you would want enthusiasts to buy it.

    I like my Mazda6, but it is not really a "sports sedan" is it? (well, mine clearly is not...but even if it were a V6 manual, would it be?)

    When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?

    What is that about air filters... ;) :confuse:

    BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I like my Mazda6, but it is not really a "sports sedan" is it? (well, mine clearly is not...but even if it were a V6 manual, would it be?)

    I don't think there is anything particularly un-sporty about even the base Mazda6, and I think sportiness isn't always about power (the E36 3-series is considered sporty and power-wise it was about the same as my Contour). The problem with Mazda's 4 banger is its the least powerful in its class. Supposedly that will be corrected in the future with respect to both power and economy.

    When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?

    Eh, yeah, I do think they were making a mistake by not building one. If it would've increased the satisfaction of the buyer, eh they need all the help they can get. And if one company did it, it would've differentiated them in the market. They could have a strip-o model undercutting the prices of their competitors and they could have a psuedo-sport model that was actually a little sporty. The Reliant came in a stick, the Ranger came in a stick, the Accord comes in a stick, as does the Camry. They all could've done it. The 90s MPV was a stick at one point IIRC, as was the Caravan, Aerostar and Previa.

    The trick isn't going to be making 1 size fit most (Toyota) the trick is going to be giving people what they actually want and making money at it (BMW).

    BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?

    When they were dumping the '07s last summer, I got my Accord EX for 19k, but its a 4 cylinder/5speed. It was a little bit of the luck of the draw as I think had it been on the lot, an EX-L would've been about the same price.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    The trick isn't going to be making 1 size fit most (Toyota)

    I'm sure Toyota stockholders wouldn't agree with you. My Mazda6 handles a lot better than most other mid-sizers but I would not call it a sport sedan. As far as people buying midsizers because they're cheap, I read on the Honda Accord forum all the time where people are spending $27-28000 on new Accords. That isn't exactly cheap in my mind. If Mazda was selling tons of the V6 "6" with stick I'm sure they would (or will as we aren't totally sure they won't) continue to offer it.

    As far as BMW offering a real sports sedan and what the enthusiust want, try their new BMW 1 which is now thier entry vehicle and which when totally optioned out can MSRP for about $50k. Just saw a review on it in the Chicago Tribune and was shocked at the price.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I have read from Mazda salespeople on these forums that the stick did not sell all that well in the midsize Mazda6(both I4 and V6)and that resale was a lot lower

    The 5-speed manual Mazda6's sold really well in the 4-cyl in all years, and in 2003-2005 sold well in the V6. As for resale, the 5-speed is desired from what I see. When I go to auctions, the 5-speed manuals go for just as much as the autos. When I see a Mazda6 manual tranny come in for trade, I do not deduct for the 5-speed because it is desired.
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