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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Some people are loyal to a brand or model regardless of anything else. Some people want a status symbol. Do you really think a BMW buyer cares whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom

    Speaking as a BMW owner...Yes, I do care whether BMW is at the top, middle or bottom. If I felt it was unreliable, I would buy a competitor's product.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    the other day... the European version, that is, in Madrid. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera handy. The greenhouse looked a lot like that of the US version. Very sharp looking car, even in white as it was. Can't wait to see the US version up close.

    Did anyone notice whether Mazda has said ESC will be standard across the line on the 2009 Mazda6? I don't recall seeing that.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Will be standard.
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    I dont think the Malibu or the Accord deserves to be there and I have an 08 Accord.
    These awards shouldn't go out until almost a full year goes by and this goes for any model.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    With an "Initial Quality" study, why would the cars need to be out for a year?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    He just meant to do a 1 yr quality survey rather than 90 days.

    JD Power already does a 3 yr dependability survey - unfortunately you have to wait 3 years to get results (funny how that works).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    JD Power already does a 3 yr dependability survey - unfortunately you have to wait 3 years to get results (funny how that works).

    Pity, isn't it? ;)
  • pmomtvpmomtv Posts: 7
    Yeah, you must be right - whenever a domestic model doesn't sell as well as a "foreign" competitor then we are all just brainwashed, status seeking buffoons. Couldn't be the fact that myself, my parents, and my mother-in-law all had such great experiences with our previous Camry or Accord that we purchased another - nah.
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,234
    I wrote this response to the J.D. Power quality survey questionnaire sometime in early April about our 2008 Malibu. The car had no reportable conditions and based upon my experience (and perhaps others) that should have moved the Malibu up the quality chart.
    bwia, "2008 Chevrolet Malibu" #830, 3 Apr 2008 6:43 am
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    Um I don't know about you, but I certainly found everything I liked and disliked and what was working in my vehicle in the first 90 days. This is really regarding built quality and design for a car that is fresh off the factory. I've already tried basically every function in my car in the first 30 days and figured out all my possible nitpicks..of which there are surprisingly few!
    The 3 year dependability survey is for long term reliability/quality. You can certainly look at that and compare cars too...a new one should be out in a few months.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    You can certainly look at that and compare cars too...a new one should be out in a few months.

    You could, but since the Fusion was introduced as a 2006 model and the 2008 dependability survey will be looking at 2005 models, it won't be included. Thus the "have to wait 3 years" comment earlier.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    whenever a domestic model doesn't sell as well as a "foreign" competitor then we are all just brainwashed, status seeking buffoons.

    That's not the point. The brainwashing occurs when people are blindly choosing a Camry over a Fusion because they *think* the Camry is more reliable even when all available statistics and user experiences says otherwise.

    There are many reasons why someone would choose a Camry or Accord over a Fusion. Reliability should not be one of them.
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    I should mention one thing...that could be shown to be better in a few years. The 3 year long term dependability surveys DO put toyota and honda ahead of most other brands. They lose to the luxury marks and mid-tier brands such as buick/mercury, but ford/hyundai/gm/etc are in the average area instead of above average. Toyota/Honda are in the 170 PPV range while most average companies are in the 220-240 range. It's not a huge gap, but it does need to be closed.

    I'm just glad we're not dealing with land rovers or VW's up in the 300-400 PPV area ;) Hopefully by the 2011 survey, we'll see some awesome results for the american/non-japanese sides.

    One interesting note, Kia has made major strides, they were last in the 2005 survey. Now they're heading toward mid-pack with a 100 PPV improvement. One reason I shy away from Kia is due to their lower scores vs their sibling Hyundai in most measurements.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The brainwashing occurs when people are blindly choosing a Camry over a Fusion because they *think* the Camry is more reliable even when all available statistics and user experiences says otherwise.

    I couldn't disagree more. My experiences with Camry owners are that they love their cars. I know more people with Fords with problems than owners of Toyotas. If you are using CR as a yardstick I wouldn't buy a Camry, but not because CR says I shouldn't buy it, because it's not for me. There is simply no plausible evidence to suggest an individual Camry owner will find their new purchase to be anything less than stellar and certainly better than Ford.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    My experiences with Camry owners are that they love their cars.

    I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said there are lots of perfectly legitimate reasons why someone might buy a Camry over a Fusion. That includes "I have one and love it","I prefer the styling","I prefer this feature","it has a color or feature I like","I just like Toyotas", etc. That is not the issue.

    I know more people with Fords with problems than owners of Toyotas.

    That is precisely the type of brainwashing that we're talking about. If that's the ONLY information available to make a decision, then that would be ok. But it's not. How many of those people own recent model year vehicles? Probably not very many. All that proves is that in your extremely tiny statistically insignificant sample of vehicles that were built 3, 5, 8 or 10 years ago or more there were more Fords with problems than Toyotas. It doesn't prove anything about whether a current Ford or Toyota product will be bad or good.

    There is simply no plausible evidence to suggest an individual Camry owner will find their new purchase to be anything less than stellar and certainly better than Ford.

    That's the most ridiculous statement you've made in quite some time. ALL of the scientific, objective evidence currently available says that the Fusion is just as reliable as a Camry and in some cases, more reliable.

    This precisely the brainwashing I was referring to. You can't ignore current, objective data in favor of your subjective and biased opinions based on 5, 10 or even 20 year old vehicles.

    That doesn't mean the Camry will fall apart - it won't (not counting engine sludge and bad trannys) - it simply means that neither will the Fusion. So stop trying to pass off subjective biases as objective facts.
  • john178john178 Posts: 48
    This is precisely the point I made earlier- the brainwashing for subjective reasons- not objective reasons or facts. Domestics like the Fusion and Malibu compare quite favorably with Camrys and Accords, but too many people are still stuck on years ago when the quality gap was significant. So if someone favors the Camry or Accord over the Fusion or Malibu for style, options, price, whatever- fine. Just don't use the quality factor or status symbol to disregard domestics.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    We are creatures of habit. If we buy one Accord or Camry, and if it meets or exceeds our expectations, we will buy another one. When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it. I would not call that "Brainwashing". I call that EARNING a reputation for building good cars. Accords and Camrys will have to start disappointing owners, for them to switch back to domestics. I don't see it happening yet.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    In a way, "if it didn't break, don't fix it."

    Reliability and quality played a part in my shopping experience before choosing my Accord, but it wasn't solely "to blame" for my choice. I preferred the interior style and powertrain of the 2006 Accord over all of its competitors.Having best in class resale and excellent reliability, along with a great dealer nearby and my previous excellent experience with my '96 Accord (which I still drive regularly and now has nearly 182k miles on it), the Accord was a VERY obvious choice.

    Yes, the Accord was the first midsizer I looked at, but it wasn't the only. Before shopping, the bar was set at my old '96. To set the bar again, I drove a fairly known entity, another Accord. From there I shopped, and the Accord couldn't be beat for what I wanted.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    We are creatures of habit. If we buy one Accord or Camry, and if it meets or exceeds our expectations, we will buy another one. When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    I agree to a point. When I find a car that satisfies me and is reliable, I will definitely consider that same brand when it's time to buy my next car. But I will look at all of the alternatives also. Why bother to do that? Because in the years since my last car purchase, things have changed. New models emerge, automakers improve (or decline!) in quality, etc. Say I bought an Accord five years ago and it gave me great service. I would of course look at the Accord again when it came time to buy my next car. But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years. Who knows, I might find something I like even better than the current Accord. Or find a car I like about as much as the Accord, but costs thousands less. I'd never know unless I looked around.
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    Moo
    Thats what I've always found interesting about these surveys, especially when there made by the same company like KIA, Hyundai, Chevy,Buick etc they could be the same car with different sheet metal but only one car is named, does the Mfg. turn on a different switch when they change models. Also KIA has improved got some nice cars, however when you read alot of threads from different sites and hear people complain you have to wonder why is some of the feedback is different then what JD Powers reports, should basically be the same people no.
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    Besides that, people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.
    Your right Accords and Camrys earned it, the big three use to have the identical reputation years back, nobody would even think about buying a Japanese car, so they indeed have a long road back.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Haha, sorry, I think that's a little far-fetched. I'd be more willing to believe that if a Honda owner bought their car for being reliable, they'd be more angry with a problematic car and willing to tell the world it was a mistake rather than the other way around.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.

    Pride has nothing to do with it. At least not in my situation. If I had major problems with my 92 Accord, I wouldn't have kept it for 12 years. I definitely wouldn't have bought another one in 03. No, not "pride" or "brainwashing". Just a very high quality, and reliable car ownership experience. The Accord has the highest repeat buyer percentage for good reason. If a car has been a lemon, no amount of "brainwashing" or "pride" will convince you otherwise, IMO.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.

    Dumb? Wow. Speak for yourself :surprise: . My 92 Accord (same as your 93) was a great car for it's time, but I think my 03 (same as your 07) is even better. The 92 had better handling, but it also had a rougher ride. The 92 (4th gen) Accord was sooo much lighter/smaller than the 7th gen Accord. A V6 engine was not even offered then. To me, the 92 Accord is more comparable to the current Civic, than the current Accord. Maybe it's "dumb", but I didn't expect the 03 Accord to be just like the 92.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.

    Dumb? Wow. Speak for yourself . My 92 Accord (same as your 93) was a great car for it's time, but I think my 03 (same as your 07) is even better. The 92 had better handling, but it also had a rougher ride. The 92 (4th gen) Accord was sooo much lighter/smaller than the 7th gen Accord. A V6 engine was not even offered then. To me, the 92 Accord is more comparable to the current Civic, than the current Accord. Maybe it's "dumb", but I didn't expect the 03 Accord to be just like the 92.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling everyone dumb. It was a bad buying decision for me, based solely on price. There are other cars in the category that are skewed more to the performance end of the spectrum. I bought vanilla, now I am mad I didn't at least go for chocolate chip. And why did I buy the only car with out an aux in and now way to play MP3s?
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.

    Pride has nothing to do with it. At least not in my situation. If I had major problems with my 92 Accord, I wouldn't have kept it for 12 years. I definitely wouldn't have bought another one in 03. No, not "pride" or "brainwashing". Just a very high quality, and reliable car ownership experience. The Accord has the highest repeat buyer percentage for good reason. If a car has been a lemon, no amount of "brainwashing" or "pride" will convince you otherwise, IMO.

    I'm somewhat of a pride person, had been leasing 2 Chevy's every 3 years since 1990, had a lot of issues but kept going back like a dope and if people would ask me about the car or suv I would tell them half the truth. I felt after the three year term the cars definetly would have gotten better, I was wrong and got tired.
    In March I leased an 08 Accord LX-P my first Japanese car, I said I would never get one but my wife convinced me and I'll tell ya. I should have done it a long time ago.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    I agree to a point. When I find a car that satisfies me and is reliable, I will definitely consider that same brand when it's time to buy my next car. But I will look at all of the alternatives also. Why bother to do that? Because in the years since my last car purchase, things have changed. New models emerge, automakers improve (or decline!) in quality, etc. Say I bought an Accord five years ago and it gave me great service. I would of course look at the Accord again when it came time to buy my next car. But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years. Who knows, I might find something I like even better than the current Accord. Or find a car I like about as much as the Accord, but costs thousands less. I'd never know unless I looked around.


    I guess I look at it a different way. While I certainly agree with Backy (I also look at all models in my $/size/MPG range when buying), I also tend to shy away from brands that I have had horrible experiences owning in earlier times. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy another from the same brand, but there must be some over-riding or compelling reason for me to do so.

    As was in an earlier posting, back in the early 70's no one would look seriously at a Japanese car. The big 3 had the market in the palm of their hand, but failed to do what was necessary to keep it, and the imports got a foot-hold. We all know the story, and I'm willing to bet that most of us who are at least 50 can tell some really good stories about some of the domestic brand cars we have owned...not that the imports aren't without their faults, too.

    Anyway, I'm just a bit reluctant to buy domestic these days. However, some models do look promising. Say, the new Malibu, for instance. I want to sit by for a bit and see how it holds up over the next 3-4 years, and then, maybe I will reconsider buying domestic once again...
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116

    Anyway, I'm just a bit reluctant to buy domestic these days. However, some models do look promising. Say, the new Malibu, for instance. I want to sit by for a bit and see how it holds up over the next 3-4 years, and then, maybe I will reconsider buying domestic once again...


    Something with a proven track record by you personally, or something that has burnt you personally in the past...hmm yeah I wonder what I would do...

    I agree, its going to take a few model cycles to get people with history to look at some of the domestic offerings, and if they slip up, it would be disastrous. I think they should do something to get those people back in, and while some people have some really extreme ideas, mine isn't as aggressive or far reaching. If you had to replace your transmission or head gasket, give a check for about that amount towards the new car or something.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years.

    There may be many potential car consumers not interested in the ownership of Ford, Nissan, GM, Toyota, Hyundia or Kia. So why bother looking? And more importantly why should they bother explaining it?

    When someone wants to give me my next car, I'll drive what they think is the right pick.

    As a side note in the last 5 years Honda has raised the bar also.
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