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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think the Ecotec 2.4L must be pretty good. It's not as sweet sounding as a Honda though!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Four cylinder engines have always been a challenge for GM/Ford/Chrysler. It also shows in their reluctance to compete with entry level cars with smaller and more fuel efficient engines. They will usually slap bigger engines to make up for it and sell power.

    For most part, they still believe in bragging about V8 (and to a lesser extent, V6). The priorities are messed up.

    On the marketing front, even if a V6 manages to deliver as good mileage as an I-4 (the Malibu/Aura V6, based on history, won’t be a candidate for it), people perceive differently. It could be from experience though, because more often than not, what we compare is EPA rating, and not real world fuel economy.

    My recent research into certified used RAV4 revealed some of that. 100% of relatively new RAV4 (from up to 2 years old) were V6 powered. I couldn’t find a single I-4 powered RAV4 in my area. It only indicates to me that many bought V6 powered version looking at EPA rating but were either disappointed or scared to keep it home. They can’t be fleet returns either because, based on my experience, virtually all fleet RAV4 have four bangers.

    Another interesting option on the horizon is diesel. And with $5/gallon, it is only going to get more interesting. And at least one from Detroit (Bob Lutz) is downplaying it and considers it a ridiculous option. IMO, we're looking at history repeating itself.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    if you really don't think that Ford's financial problems do effect Mazda's ability to to fulfill its promise for a better V6 in the 08 6 (you said so yourself)

    I never said why the launch of the new Mazda6 was not on par with the rest of the world, because I do not know. No one does. You are forgetting that Mazda makes it's own money, and spends it own money. Do we really know if Ford's financial status effects what Mazda does in Japan?

    According to rumors, the only real difference from the Euro/Japanese Mazda6 will be the V6 engine. Now, is Mazda going to use the 3.7 sourced from Japan, or the 3.5 sourced from the U.S.? We don't know. Also, did Mazda push back the launch of the 6 so it did not clash with the Accord? That is another rumor. If that were true, it's a good thing they did that. In this segment, you want to make the biggest splash upon arrival. The Accord most certainly did that. Then there is the AWD speculation. With the CX's selling strong, and demand increasing, AWD systems are scarce.

    if you don't think that the 6 and the Fusion are close to identical mechanically then I guess the marketing people did their job

    The current 2003-2008 Mazda6 and Ford Fusion are very similar. Same Mazda platform, and engine choices. The D23 is a Mazda design, and the D30 is Ford's. Tranny's are different as well as suspension/materials/design. The up-comming Mazda6 uses a Volvo platform, recently used in the new Ford Mondeo in Europe. If you have not seen the Mondeo, you need to take a look. Whatta car that is. In Europe, Ford's have a strong reputation for reliability and quality.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Grad- think you will have a hard time finding anybody that doesn't know that Honda makes and has made the best small engines for many years. I was thinking more about a comparison of that Ecotec (or Hyundai's/Chrysler's 'world engine'/Ford-Mazda's 2.3s) you mentioned to the Nissan and Toyota 4 bangers which are not shabby either. I wouldn't even think of comparing a Honda engine (4 banger) to pretty much anything else made on this planet - their expertise in building a small engine is legendary and why they make such good lawnmowers ;) !
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Not sure what your point is, do you expect Mazda to put a V6 in the new 6 for the rest of the world, where no one wants this?

    To me rather than underpowered engines in the rest of the world, I would say that only in the US do over-powered FWD family sedans sell.

    As was pointed out the majority of buyers of the two (maybe 3?) most popular midsize sedans have found the 150-170 HP 4 cyl to be adequate for the job. You have a fixation on V6 and HP that most buyers don't seem to share, in the end.
  • This topic just keeps getting funnier (and more ignorant) as it keeps moving along!

    personally I would suggest to you that that 'straight line' capability is what most drivers will find more useful whether its passing a semi on a 2 lane or merging on the highway that happens to be moving at 80!

    I happen to drive a lot of two-lane roads and highways as part of my commute and with weekend jaunts. Not once, and I'll repeat, NOT ONCE has my V6-equipped Mazda6 let me down when I needed more power, both in the instances you just described, and in thousands of other situations when I needed to get up and go. 50 HP may mean something on paper, but where it counts ON THE ROAD, the difference is negligible at best.

    Ever since the MX5/Probe days back in the late 80s and early 90s the Mazdas have always had 'Ford' Vulcan and DT V6s - something that I contend has hurt the Mazda6 ( and 626) in the showrooms. It sure has kept me away.

    No. What's hurt the Mazda6 in showrooms is the fact that it's 9/10th the size of the behemoth CamCords. Since the vast majority of this segment buys I-4's and avoids the V6, AFAIC the V6 is not an issue, nor will it be when the '09 model debuts.

    I personally have owned a number of Mazdas and even a Probe and have always thought that Mazda has been a good product that has been hurt by Dearborn.

    As proven on this forum about a thousand times now, MAZDA AND FORD ARE TWO DIFFERENT COMPANIES. Different philosophies, different management teams, etc. And also as repeated before, Mazda WOULD NOT EXIST had it not been for Ford purchasing a share of their stock and investing some much-needed $$$$. It's not a marketing "scheme", it's no joke, or "Fordspeak", its FACT. Whether or not you choose to believe it is your choice, but don't bash something that you obviously know nothing about and are too ignorant to understand fully.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    According to rumors = Ford/Mazda speak.
    of course the 'new' Mazda6 would be based on some sort of Volvo platform - Ford already did that with the S80/500-Taurus - not that platform sharing is necessarily bad or unusual - if the platform is good enough - the majority of Nissan/Infiniti models are all based in some degree on what they call the 'FM' platform, and quite successfully. From what I understand Ford Europe is the only wholly owned Ford subsidiary that actually makes money (Rover?) . I don't know much about the Mondeo as I also understand that it is not destined for the US but I do read that it is a helluva car...
  • The up-comming Mazda6 uses a Volvo platform, recently used in the new Ford Mondeo in Europe.

    Besides your dealer connections, where else did you get this info. A number of other sources, including automotive journalists across the pond, say that the '09 6 is based on a revised version of the current platform.

    link here
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    You might want to revisit "facts". I'm not interested in discussing Ford's commercials.

    Just because you can't comprehend the "facts" about how Ford's AWD system works doesn't mean it's a "commercial". The system works as advertised by sending torque to the rear wheels to help handling and to help prevent slip from occurring under certain conditions. End of discussion. Move on.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Haven't you noticed that the people who complain the most about Ford (and Mazda) are the ones that know the least about them?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    If Ford and Mazda are different companies then why are they producing cars that except for a few inches and some suspension bits are otherwise identical?. Or FTM, why, if they are different companies, does Mazda seem to have the same sort of problems getting a competitive V6 in the car? I don't know for a FACT (as you say) what kind of financial condition that Mazda was in back in the late 80s when Ford commissioned them to build the new Mustang (later became the Probe) , the only thing that seems to be apparent to this Mazda fan is that Ford ( and perhaps its financial problems) is 'holding back' what used to be an innovative car mfgr.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    According to rumors = Ford/Mazda speak.

    I have gathered rumors from forums, magazines, and from what my rep's at Mazda have hinted to. I really only take what my rep says seriously. I cannot get any of my Mazda hierarchy to spill the beans on what they plan to do, officially. Does this mean they don't know what going on? No. It just means they are not ready to let everyone know what they are up to. What's wrong with that? Every company does that.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    OK I'll bite, akirby, than you tell me what I have said in the last several posts that is inaccurate -outside of that contradictory information that you might glean from that unimpeachable source - the FoMoCo press releases. A challenge if you will....
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,629
    Yes, Aura gets an I4 for 2008. Another example of increased emphasis on I4s in mid-sized cars is the availability of an I4 on the Sonata on all trim lines for 2008, even the top-end Limited. The power increase for the I4 planned for early next year (2009 MY) should help increase the popularity of the I4 Sonata vs. V6 even more. Also, with increased emphasis on I4s and fuel economy, that could bode well for the "upsized" compact sedans like Elantra and Sentra that have mid-sized interiors, but only I4 engines.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    If Ford and Mazda are different companies then why are they producing cars that except for a few inches and some suspension bits are otherwise identical?.

    Other then the Escape/Tribute, B-Series/Ranger, which are identical? The Fusion and Mazda6 are similar, but not identical. Really, nothing else in the line are even close to identical! Other then platform sharing, which is done between "global partners", there are no similarities. Nissan/Infinity share platforms with parent company, Renault, which no one ever seems to talk about. I have not heard many good things about that company, but, people here seem to stay away from that debate because Renault does not import to the US anymore.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    this bit of 'info' came from 'aviboy' #7191, but it does make some sense given that Ford is already borrowing from Volvo for other products.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Renault (the French government?) did dump a few billion into Nissan back in the 90s,it effectively was Carlo Ghosn (the man in charge at the time), the money, and the 2002 Altima (FM platform) that helped Nissan develop what supposedly is THE most profitable product line of any mfgr. (in terms of profit/unit - not overall (I think Toyota has that sewn up)) and a lot of that has to do with that platform/drivetrain sharing that we were talking about.
    As far as Renault cars go, I seem to remember some pretty sorry vehicles with that name (or cars built by Renault and imported by somebody else) - Nissan OTH something quite different.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    then all you would have to do is take your 6 back for trade (or advertise it in the paper) and see how close to reality it is, wouldn't you? Have heard many trade-in horror stories from 6 owners - especially the ones that paid the premium for the Speed6. The fact that the 07 6 had a 'built-in' $2000.00 rebate would indeed serve to stabilize resale prices and reminds me a bit of how Buick markets their cars.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I think we're on the same page - maybe a frightening prospect in itself ;) and also agree that Detroit may miss the boat if they don't get on the small 4 cyl (or V6) diesel bandwagon - the future is not likely going to be in skirting EPA FE requirements with cheap to produce but costly to operate E85 vehicles. Wonder how many folks out there bought that 'Flex-fuel' on the trunk and then have never had any occasion to use it!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    outside of that contradictory information that you might glean from that unimpeachable source - the FoMoCo press releases.

    Why don't YOU point out where FoMoCo press releases provide contradictory information?
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