Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Midsize Sedans 2.0

13683693713733741065

Comments

  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Congrats on your new ride! Seems as though it suits you well... and the manual tranny in the Accord is pretty awesome. Looking forward to your thoughts on the Honda...I think you're the only one on here w/ an 08. And since you had a similar car as I currently have, I'll be able to relate a bit more to your descriptions. Glad to have another poster here too!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    robertsmx,

    I've got to laugh.

    Who with half a brain would buy a Viper if they were concerned with the MPG of the car? The Viper is already hit with the gas-guzzler tax.

    The Viper is about raw power, not MPG, interior room or cargo room. It's not meant to be a "practical car". It's in a specialty niche for those who can afford it in additon to their "normal" car.
  • 2007 Accord LX 5-speed manual
    40 MPH ~ 1600 RPM
    50 MPH ~ 2000 RPM
    60 MPH ~ 2400 RPM
    70 MPH ~ 2800 RPM
    80 MPH ~ 3200 RPM
    90 MPH ~ 3600 RPM
    100 MPH ~ 4000 RPM

    Calculated number for 2008 Accord

    I-4/AT: 60=1950,
    70=2300
    80=2600
    V6/AT: 60=2050
    70=2400
    80=2750

    I-4/MT: 60=2200
    70=2600
    80=2950
    V6/MT: 60=2100
    70=2450
    80=2800


    Saturn Aura XR 6 sp Automatic
    60=1500
    70=1750
    80=2000

    So at 70 MPH my Aura XR is spinning 1050 RPM less than the '07 Accord I4MT
    650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
    700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT

    Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
    That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
    (15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
    Just food for thought :blush:
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Interesting and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

    I haven't had a MT since 1983 but, as I recall, in a MT, X revs equaled Y MPH in each gear. In hilly CT, an AT can have different revs,in the same gear, at Y MPH depending upon whether the road is down hill, up hill or relatively flat.

    This would be due to the direct connection vs the fluid connection, I think. If I'm wrong please correct and explain.
  • Ever heard the term "Lock up Torque Converter"?
    It essentially makes a mechanical connection through the torque converter once a pre-programmed speed has been reached. Used to be, in the old days this didn't exist, then in the late 70's, I think, they figured a way to engage a latch of some sort which locked the two halves of the torque converter together once top gear was engaged and something like manifold vacuum was high.
    Today it's the transmissions computer that determines when to lock up occurs and it might even lock up in other than top gear.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    So at 70 MPH my Aura XR is spinning 1050 RPM less than the '07 Accord I4MT
    650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
    700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT

    Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
    That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
    (15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
    Just food for thought


    That is one big IF. Not applicable, in the "real world".
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    It seems to me if there were a person who was thinking about buying a midsize sedan, they may want to simplify the choices from the many listed above to just a few. The way to do this would be to look at different ways to divide the category... here are some thoughts:

    Budget/ Value - Sonata (18k for a v-6?, i4 ?), Mazda6 (17k for a v-6 in pdx), Optima

    Reliability - Sonata, Accord, Legacy, Fusion (listed in no particular order...) - of course I have to add that the differences in reliability as reported by JD Powers and Consumer Reports over a 5 year period between the most reliable and below average vehicles in this class are separated by only a few percent over that five year period... in other words, I would suggest that most vehicles in this class are very reliable.

    Sportiness/ fun to drive - Altima, Legacy GT, Mazda6, Aura, Accord coupe (reviews suggest the 2 door as having a much more sporty suspension than the 4 dr), Camry SE (motortrend said this model was more sporty than the Accord...for what that's worth)

    Cargo Utility - Outback, Passat wagon, Mazda6 hatchback/ wagon

    Resale value - Accord, Camry

    Interior Quality - too subjective, but my faves are the Legacy, new Sonata, Accord, Aura

    Gas mileage - ? not really a stat that I've looked at too much, but I'm sure others here will know

    Safety - Legacy

    Ride Comfort - not too sure where to start with this since some would value a tomb like ride, others might like something with more connection. Also, one person may like a seat that another would find awful. But I think the people who would list this as one of their primary considerations would most likely prefer something that is smooth and quiet and not very engaging. Camry, Accord, Sonata.

    I'm sure my list is far from comprehensive, but I welcome comments and additions/ clarifications to this list. Of course many of these qualities are somewhat subjective, but if there are new readers of this forum, our comments may help make their choices easier if not get them to think about how to go about making their choice.
  • Sportiness/ fun to drive - Altima, Legacy GT, Mazda6, Aura, Accord coupe (reviews suggest the 2 door as having a much more sporty suspension than the 4 dr), Camry SE (motortrend said this model was more sporty than the Accord...for what that's worth)

    Hmm a full-size "personal coupe" as fun to drive...eh kind of screams Monte Carlo to me. Not that the Prelude was svelte either, but that is a large automobile. I think our base Legacy has a pretty active ride which is understandably too harsh for some, but it is fun for me to drive. My friend had a previous generation Camry SE and it was reasonably firm as well, and was a 4 cyl 5 spd combo with a "sport" suspension.
  • In my opinion, the number of revolutions an engine has accumulated is less important in terms of overall durability than the design of the engine and most importantly, proper maintenance (especially when the difference between the average RPM is something like 2200 versus 3200, when redline is over 6000). Of course, any engine can be adversely affected by operating outside it's design parameters.

    Honda engines are designed to rev. Look at Civic Si, S2000... even one of the new Accord I4 variants has a redline over 7000 RPM. And then there are Honda sport motorcycles...

    Think about the engines in your lawn mower, leaf blower, or a personal watercraft or outboard boat motor (all of which are also made by Honda). Those engines stay at very high RPM during most of their use and are not adversely affected because they are designed to operate in those conditions.

    Most Honda motors have always been this way, and it hasn't seemed to adversely affect their durability compared to larger displacement, lower-revving motors in the past. In short, I don't worry too much about revving my Honda!
  • SporinSporin Posts: 1,066
    Thanks zzzoom6. :shades:

    The Accord is quite a contrast to the 6, that's for sure.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    In short, I don't worry too much about revving my Honda!

    I agree 100% with that statement. Even though I loathed our '96 Civic for its lack of power anywhere south of 4000 RPM, it did rev willingly to the redline. We had problems with it almost everywhere else on the car, but the drive train required minimal maintenance even though we did rev it near the limit all the time just to climb hills and keep up with traffic.

    The only think I did differently was that I changed the oil more frequently. It did emit a burning oil smell from the tailpipe after a shorter period of time than other cars I've owned but I had no problem with that. Even that can be eliminated with different oils and additives now, neither of which were used by me. I just used plain old Pennzoil which isn't exactly the greatest oil in the world anymore from what I've read.
  • In my opinion, the number of revolutions an engine has accumulated is less important in terms of overall durability than the design of the engine and most importantly, proper maintenance (especially when the difference between the average RPM is something like 2200 versus 3200, when redline is over 6000). Of course, any engine can be adversely affected by operating outside it's design parameters.

    I think you are right, I think the wear on a well maintained motor with clean motor oil is minimal from additional RPMs. Technological improvements have allowed for much tighter and better controlled tolerances and much less variation in manufacturing, resulting in substancial decreases in weight and friction. Short of cold starts and engineering failures, there is very little metal to metal contact.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    In particular, I would expect revs when cruising on the freeway to have a pretty insignifiacnt impact on engine life. The number of times it is started cold, regardless of the mileage driven would probably be a much bigger factor.

    Wouldn't it be nice, for used car shoppers, if in addition to miles cars would count the number of starts?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    Just a little pet peeve - RPM is already plural (Revolutions Per Minute) so you don't need to add a 's' to the end. It's additional RPM, not RPMs. And that wasn't directed at you - I've seen it several times.
  • bug4bug4 Posts: 370
    While engine design may very well minimize the effect of higher rpms, there can be little doubt that an engine wears faster at higher rpms than at lower rpms. It would very hard to conclude from this fact alone that the Saturn engine will last longer. But, its good food for thought. Nice post phaetondriver!

    [edit -- sorry for the rpm"s" :P ]
  • You are right, I was thinking revs and typed RPMs. Valid point.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Things are not quite that simple in reality. A higher revving engine is expected to be engineered around the fact that it will rev higher and more often. One can bet that Honda's F20C/F22C (S2000) uses greater design standards than the K24A (Accord) and both may last just a long, from wear and tear owing to RPM. Otherwise, one could make an argument that a 6AT will die before 4AT or 5AT does, as it requires more shifts.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    That has always made me wonder about "1 RPM". :blush:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    So the Aura engine will wear out at 300K, while the Honda wears out at 250K. That wouldn't be enough to make me go with an Aura.
  • While engine design may very well minimize the effect of higher rpms, there can be little doubt that an engine wears faster at higher rpms than at lower rpms. It would very hard to conclude from this fact alone that the Saturn engine will last longer. But, its good food for thought.

    Food for thought and discussion is why I asked the question in the first place.
    I know most cars today have engines and transmissions that lasts for 100's of thousands of miles when maintained properly and driven with care, which I am sure everyone on this forum does :blush:

    Fact: Every revolution of the engine causes some wear some place. Oil does not cover every part 100% of it's surface when pressure is applied.

    Fact: Every revolution of the engine generates heat because of the parts rubbing against one another. If the parts didn't rub against one another we wouldn't need a radiator full of coolant or a water pump or an oil cooler or a transmission oil cooler.

    Wear might only a molecule or two per 1000 rev's but it is still wear. A fact of life you can't avoid, just do what you can to minimize it :)

    Point: Do whatever you can to reduce friction in the engine and transmission and the engine/trans will last even longer. As someone posted they will both probably last well over 250,000 Kilometers (how about 250,000 miles?). I use a PTFE based additive to help, it works to keep temps down and it helps with the gas mileage too.
Sign In or Register to comment.