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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    It's on inside Line. They also came out and said that weather was the likely factor, and they needed to test the vehicles the same day under the same conditions, as the two figures are not comparable given the different testing conditions.

    So much as the secret Toyota agents try, there is no pulling down Ford. :shades:
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Good read on the 2010 Fusion Hybrid. I did enjoy it. :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    And a bunch of reporters BEAT the epa estimates, getting as much as 52 mpg.

    One of them being Motor Trend. They compared it directly to the Camry, Altima, and Malibu hybrids on the same days and in the same conditions. That is how you are supposed to conduct a comparison and Edmunds needs to follow up with this because they just compared apples to oranges in that article. The Fusion came out way ahead of all of them in the MT comparo BTW.

    Edmunds seems to have arrived at unusually high numbers for the Camry in that article too. Be it the weather, the driver, or whatever, something seems terribly off balance with their results.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Hybrids are great on gas and all but with $1.80 gas, no one cares anymore. Sales of the Prius are down 50%.

    I fear the Fusion Hybrid is not going to sell all that well but I think the I-4 will if priced well. People need to give big three cars like Fusion and Malibu a drive, they are really good.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Ford is only selling 25K FFHs as opposed to the Prius at 100K. Ford won't have any trouble selling 25K FFHs. Escape hybrids are still selling well. People who buy Fusion and Escape Hybrids don't do it just for the mpg. They're just buying the most fuel efficient version of that vehicle. Most people who buy a Prius buy it strictly for the fuel mileage so of course they're going to be affected more by low gas prices.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    "Ford is only selling 25K FFHs as opposed to the Prius at 100K. "
    Care to explain that? A Prius certainly does not cost 100K,and what is a FFH?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    100k cars (not price). Ford Fusion Hybrid.

    Even though Ford has modest sales goals for the Fusion Hybrid, it will be interesting to see how it does if gas stays below $2 a gallon. The hybrid starts around $27k, and a Fusion I4 can be had with decent equipment for under $20k--with improved fuel economy for the 2010 model year. Those who are OK spending $27k+ for a hybrid may turn to the 2010 Prius, if it is roomy enough. Then there's the 2010 Insight, reportedly starting well under $18k, if a smaller car will fit. The Insight is a compact, though, so not direct competition for the Fusion. But I think the Prius is. As is the Camry hybrid of course, which is improved for 2010 MY also and has a starting price less than the Fusion.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    "FFH" is Ford Fusion Hybrid. 25K is how many units are projected to build.

    The Prius sells at about 100,000 units per year is what he was implying.

    Since Ford already has trouble meeting the demands for the Escape / Mariner Hybrid, I have no doubt that Ford will have any issue selling the 25,000 the intend to build.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    The Insight is a compact, though, so not direct competition for the Fusion. But I think the Prius is.

    They compete in FE only. Sure they are sized similarly but the Fusion, and Camry for that matter, are much more refined and better as daily drivers than the Prius (I've never driven one so this is purely off of what I've read over the years). If you still think the Prius is a direct competitor to the FFH then you must think it competes with it's lot-mate the Camry hybrid right? Why would Toyota put two competing cars on the same lots everywhere?

    As is the Camry hybrid of course, which is improved for 2010 MY also and has a starting price less than the Fusion.

    The FFH offers a bit more than the Camry hybrid though. To get any sort of high tech readout of the hybrid system in the Camry you have to get the nav. The FFH offers a high tech solution to that want right out of the box. Then there's the FE gap between the two and some other small things that, IMO, make the Fusion worth the extra grand or grand and a half over the Camry.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Yes, I think the Fusion, Camry, and Prius are competitors for some buyers--including me. But not all buyers of course. Some only want a sedan. Others, like me, would take a sedan but prefer the flexibility of a hatchback.

    As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that. :) While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix.

    If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception, e.g. "Car sales are way down, you are asking taxpayers to provide you with a line of credit, and you want HOW much for that Fusion??" People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however. ;)

    (Toyota sales reps and fans, please note the ;) after that last comment!)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "Car sales are way down, you are asking taxpayers to provide you with a line of credit, and you want HOW much for that Fusion??"

    Ummmm, Ford did not ask for that. Yet. Have you seen the 2010 Taurus? Times are changing.

    Yes, I think the Fusion, Camry, and Prius are competitors for some buyers--including me. But not all buyers of course

    To some, yes. But for an SUV buyer like me, it's the more plush vehicle for me. That means the Prius is out of the equation. I'd wager most of the buyers will be like me and not you. But that is yet to be seen.

    As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that.

    Ford is not innocent here either. The Flex and TX are competitors as are the Escape and Edge to an extent. The TX is gone now though so I'm not sure where Toyota is going.

    While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix.


    All good points. Again, don't know what they're thinking. Their sales are really bad too, way worse than Ford last month actually, if you haven't heard.

    If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception

    Ah, but the perception might change once they sit in both. The FFH has that standard, customizable display in the IP which the Camry hybrid lacks. I bet that eye candy sways a lot of shoppers. 25k is not a lofty goal for this car and I see no problem with them selling all of them. Especially because that includes Milan hybrid sales to IIRC. There are currently 2 2009 Escape hybrids (FEH for short) available in my area. But both are $36k+ loaded Limited models so they go last. The salespersons laugh at you when you ask for a moderately equipped FEH. YMMV of course.

    People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however.

    Well, the "Saved by 0" campaign didn't save their sales enough. Word is Toyota is going to begin a big incentive run soon.

    I'm due for a new lease soon and I'm pulling for a new Ford. Problem is, they aren't' leasing real well right now and Toyota and Honda are. I want to help the Big3 but I can't if they don't help me. ;)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Ford did ask for a line of credit. They wanted it to be available should they need it.

    (Ford) asked Congress for a $9 billion line of credit it could draw on if market conditions continue to deteriorate.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081203/AUTO01/812030394

    Not that I think that this would or should have much impact on what a buyer may think a Fusion is worth.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    I'd wager most of the buyers will be like me and not you. But that is yet to be seen.

    We already have some empirical evidence on this, to wit, what are the sales numbers since the Camry Hybrid was introduced of that car vs. the hatchback Prius? Or add up the total sales of the CH, the Altima Hybrid, and the GM sedan hybrids over that time and compare to Prius sales. That might give some indication as to whether hybrid buyers prefer a mid-sized sedan or mid-sized (if marginally) hatchback configuration.

    As to the effect of Ford's financial situation on pricing, I agree there is no direct effect. I think there is a psychological effect, however, i.e. I think many buyers expect "fire sale" prices from automakers now because of market conditions. That's why I think a $27k base (more loaded) FFH will be a tough sell while gas prices stay low and they sit next to regular FFHs with excellent FE numbers for their class at about $10k less--fancy displays with leaves sprouting and bunnies dancing (OK, maybe not that) notwithstanding.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Prirus is NOT a mid-size sedan to some people, myself included. You cannot just raises the trunk to have more space inside thus making this car to be a mid-size car. The great mileage on the Prirus b/c:

    1. it's a compact sedan.
    2. it has a tiny engine w/ low HP than any sub-compact sedans.

    If you compare the Prirus to other small engine cars (1.5L) like the Yaris, Fit, or Versa, the mileage is not much better but the HP is a lot lower.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you compare the Prirus to other small engine cars (1.5L) like the Yaris, Fit, or Versa, the mileage is not much better but the HP is a lot lower.

    Um, sorry, that's really not true. Are you sure you compared them? :)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *Nissan Versa, 122hp - 24-27 city / 31-33 hwy

    *Toyota Yaris, 106hp - 29 city / 35-36 hwy

    *Honda Fit, 117hp - 27-28 city / 33-35 hwy

    *Toyota Prius - 110hp - 48 city / 45 hwy (19-24mpg better city / 9-14mpg better hwy)
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    (Up to 100% better fuel economy than the vehicles you mention, with at most, 12 fewer horses). Pretty big economy differences with little power-tradeoff if you ask me!
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Well, the diff. in MPG is still not significant to me as an average driver. For a 12K miles/year, Yaris 12K / 32 mpg = 375 gallons v. Prirus 12K/46.5mpg = 258 gallons = 117 gallons saving per year or about 0.32 gallon/day.

    What I try to say is that some people like to compare the Prirus to a REAL mid-size car like a Camry or Altima to make others think that the Prirus really save them a lot of gas.

    *Toyota Prius - 110hp

    Well, I just compared them using carsdirect and it says the HP for Prirus is 76HP...from toyota website:

    Power output
    76 hp @ 5000 rpm (57 kW @ 5000 rpm)

    Electric Motor Power output
    67 hp @ 1200-1540 rpm (50 kW @ 1200-1540 rpm)

    Hybrid System Net Power
    110 hp (82 kW)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Considering the Prius has more combined legroom than my "real midsize" 2006 Accord sedan, (41.9 in of front legroom and 38.6 in of rear for the Prius, 42.6 and 36.8 for my Accord), I'd say its pretty roomy for a car that gets close to 50 mpg in town. At 6'5" 200, its legroom and headroom that make the big difference for me, and the Prius has my midsize Accord beat in room where it counts.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, the diff. in MPG is still not significant to me as an average driver. For a 12K miles/year, Yaris 12K / 32 mpg = 375 gallons v. Prirus 12K/46.5mpg = 258 gallons = 117 gallons saving per year or about 0.32 gallon/day.

    When gas was $4 a gallon, those 117 gallons would've amounted to a 13th car payment's worth of gas ($468). Let's face it, gas won't stay under $2 forever! By the way, if you drive 20k a year like I do, that number is significantly higher.

    I don't have a hybrid, and don't "pull for Toyota" in any way, just stating a dissenting opinion here. :)
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    I just read this from edmunds review...

    The gas engine produces 76 horsepower and 82 pound-feet of torque, while the electric-drive motor produces the equivalent of 67 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque. Net peak horsepower is 110, mainly because the two power sources hit their peaks at different times.
  • SS0198SS0198 Posts: 1
    Hi,
    I have a 08 HYUNDAI SONATA (GLS-V4) and it has 30,000 miles on it and I bought it with a warranty and it is certified.
    I have some issues that I noticed recently
    1. Some times I notice or feel weird sound when I am driving on a normal road as we see this kind of sound when your car drives on a curb. (For example when you are driving on a highway and you get in to a curb...you can feel that it is curb).
    Is this some thing with the road or have to do some thing with tires. Tires looks good so far.
    2..I also noticed that there is a small crack on the glass where the odometer is present. Is this some thing urgent I have to take care ASAP.
    I really appreciate if some one give some information about my first issue
    I have the warranty and do you think if I take it to a dealer they will be taken care.
    Thanks all for your help
    SS
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    The Prius is not a car that meets your needs and that's fine. But there are people for whom the Prius is a viable alternative to mid-sized sedan hybrids like the FFH and TCH.

    Also, since we are talking here about the 2010 FFH, it's fair that we talk about the 2010 Prius, which was unveiled in Detroit and will be available soon. That car has a total system output of 134 hp, which is low compared to other mid-sized cars except the smallest ones (Elantra, Sentra, Versa), but it does get the Prius from 0-60 in 9.8 seconds, considerably quicker than before and plenty of power for most people IMO. Also, although EPA ratings haven't been announced yet, Toyota expects the 2010 Prius to average 50 mpg on the EPA tests, again a good bump up from the previous car, which was 46 mpg average per EPA. And there are improvements in handling and interior room, also in equipment--e.g. anyone who wouldn't buy a Prius because it didn't offer a factory moonroof, there's not only a moonroof option but it's a solar-powered moonroof that keeps the interior cool while the car is parked. :) Also other electronic gadgets like touch sensors on the steering wheel, lane departure, even an OnStar-like system.

    Anyway, I predict the 2010 Prius will be cross-shopped by many folks looking also at the FFH. Depending on how much Toyota has tweaked the handling on the Prius, the Fusion will be the likely choice for people who value crisp handling, and of course those who want a sedan configuration and want to buy from a U.S. automaker. The FFH will also likely still have an advantage in rear-seat width, important for those who haul 3 in back regularly, while the Prius has the cargo-hauling advantage with its hatch.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    You might get more responses if you post this in the Hyundai Sonata Problems discussion, but a couple of thoughts. The car is still under the factory bumper-to-bumper warranty, so if you think there's a problem with the suspension, take it into the dealer. Suspension noise has been reported on the 2008 Sonata, and it seems worse on some cars than on others. The car seems to have some "normal" noise that has been reported by many professional test drivers, but there also seems to be some cars that have excessive noise. Hard to tell from your description just what is going on with your car. Take it in, have them check it out (including having the service tech go on a drive with you), and maybe ask to drive another 2008 Sonata over the same kind of roads where you hear the noise on your car and see if you hear similar noise.

    Re the crack in the glass near the odometer, do you mean a crack in the clear plastic covering the gauges? That would be covered under warranty also, as long as it was due to a defect and not due to abuse. That might be hard to determine, but if I were you I'd take it to the dealer and see what they say.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Net peak horsepower is 110, mainly because the two power sources hit their peaks at different times.

    Exactly. At 5,000 RPM, the horsepower peaks between the two engines, at 110.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,736
    backy i will bet it is a forum troll. they make 1 negative post and don't return.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    Or maybe just someone who didn't know exactly where to post, so they figured "Mid-sized Sedans" would cover it? Besides, it's much too cold to troll--lakes are all frozen over now.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Ford did ask for a line of credit. They wanted it to be available should they need it.

    Originally, yes, but they turned it all down in the end. The original statement implied that they were still asking for money and that is not true.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    what are the sales numbers since the Camry Hybrid was introduced of that car vs. the hatchback Prius? Or add up the total sales of the CH, the Altima Hybrid, and the GM sedan hybrids over that time and compare to Prius sales. That might give some indication as to whether hybrid buyers prefer a mid-sized sedan or mid-sized (if marginally) hatchback configuration.


    That has nothing to do with WHO is buying them though. My suggestion was that SUV buyers would pick the Camry, or similar, over a Prius.

    The Prius is a "look at me I'm so green" kind of car IMO. A statement care if you will. I think people making a switch for more valid reasons would choose a real mid-sized sedan over the Prius.

    I don't think you can fairly compare Camry hybrid sales to Prius sales anyway. Isn't the price of the Prius lower?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,736
    there are plenty of these types of posts on other forums.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    My suggestion was that SUV buyers would pick the Camry, or similar, over a Prius.

    I am confused as to why an SUV buyer would pick the Camry, or any car for that matter. Wouldn't they buy an SUV? :confuse: Personally I find a hatchback a lot closer to an SUV than a sedan.

    Why isn't wanting the versatility of a hatchback configuration a valid reason to choose a hatch over a sedan? Remember, the cargo room of full-hybrid sedans is compromised by the battery pack. Anyway, who are you to tell someone that their reason for buying a car isn't valid--even if it's only because they want to make a statement about their "greenness"? People buy cars to make a personal statement all the time.

    The prices of the Prius and Camry Hybrid overlap. The Prius starts off around $23k and tops out around $30k, while the Camry starts around $27k and can get into the low $30s. The prices of Sonatas are a lot lower than those mid-sizers like the Accord, yet we compare sales of those cars all the time. So why not compare Prius sales to sales of other mid-sized hybrid cars?
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