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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    What is the difference between a loaded Chevy or Ford vs base models?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Perhaps the greater amount of up-front investment versus resale value? The Hondas and Toyotas of today aren't worlds ahead in quality like they used to be, but the resale (especially that of Honda) is still a fair amount better.

    Just speculating; not speaking for robbieg.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017
    I think comparing a V6 model Sonata to an I4 Accord just because they are closer in price is spin. Just compare similar drivetrain/amenities and see what the difference in resale is. Also, add in the interest on few thousand difference over 5 yrs. Also add in the less sales tax(plus interest over 5 yrs) and the total diffence would be quite a bit more. Also, I think there would be some value to two additional years of warranty for the Sonata but it would be hard to quantify.

    Also, Hyundai has made great strides in quality(and the perception thereof) over the past 5 years, so the future resale values of cars bought today may be closer than the previous 5 years. However, that is just my opinion and I can't say it will be that way.

    Let's stick with apples to apples and consider the whole picture when making comparisons especially if you're going to go through the trouble of looking up all the numbers in the first place.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    I don't think that a midsize Chevy/Ford is worth that much. This is due in part to the lousy resale value of American cars. Also, I just don't think that a Chevy is anything more than budget transportation regardless of how nice one is on the inside. Thus, in my opinion the "image" associated with Chevy doesn't warrant spending a lot on a loaded Chevy. In my neck of the woods, I only know one person my age who drives an American sedan and they drive a base Impala which they bought because of price, they used a supplier discount.

    P.S. I read some glowing reviews of the Ford Fusion Hybrid. In short it seems like a great Hybrid and it might even be better than the Camry Hybrid. My question is why is Ford pricing it $1100 higher than the Camry Hybrid. Doesn't Toyota command a premium over Ford?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    Spoken by someone who has formed their opinions based on what they've heard from others over the years and not based on factual research.

    The fact is the difference in resale value on today's vehicles is relatively small and is usually offset by the lower street price of the Fusion or Malibu. Making the actual cost of ownership about the same. The reason for crappy resale in the past has been because the American mfrs overproduced substandard vehicles and had to heavily discount them and dump them into rental fleets which combined for poor resale. Ford in particular has greatly reduced fleet sales and cut back on production which will keep resale values in check.

    As for the price difference on the Ford Fusion Hybrid versus the Toyota - I'm sure there is a difference in standard equipment. But even so, don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability and much better looks (ok, the last one was subjective but I think most would agree).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,371
    >Spoken by someone who has formed their opinions based on what they've heard from others over the years and not based on factual research.

    Totally agree.

    >The fact is the difference in resale value on today's vehicles is relatively small and is usually offset by the lower street price of the Fusion or Malibu. Making the actual cost of ownership about the same.

    Right on point.

    >The reason for crappy resale in the past has been because the American mfrs overproduced substandard vehicles and had to heavily discount them and dump them into rental fleets which combined for poor resale

    Not quite. The sales to fleet and rental markets help keep factories producing to cover the cost of manpower in those union factories. It's like the japanese producing and selling here at dumping prices on all kinds of things to keep factories at home running.

    The idea they produces substandard vehicles to do it isn't right. Rental markets often wanted bare minimum equipment to keep the price low to the rentals. Same for fleet buyers. So the cars had minimum equipment. See your point #1.

    > Ford in particular has greatly reduced fleet sales and cut back on production

    GM also has cut back on sales to rental and fleets.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,234
    There is an interesting article in today's LA Times about Chevrolet. It talks about the Impala versus Malibu situation and how they cannabalize each other. The Malibu is their car of the future to go against Camcord, but the 20 year old Impala goes out the door for a similar price. Some shoppers end up buying the Impala because its bigger which hurts Malibu sales volume. Meannwhile, Impala has a big fleet audience. This gives GM cash flow, but more discerning customers rent Impala's and think GM hasn't changed and doesn't have competitive cars to Camcord. This dilemma really applies to a lot of D3. Need the profits and cash flow from the old cost amortized models, but this hurts the volume and marketing of the newer more import competitive models. I'm not sure how they fix it?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability
    Do the math - a 5 year payback on the $1100.00 difference - not to mention that you apparently don't want to acknowledge C&Ds 2-09 Hybrid comparo (my God, the Fusion 'won' I'm surprised you haven't told the world. They tested the FEs of The Fusion Hybird vs. the Camry Hybird and it wasn't the Toyota that used the most gas ;) despite what the window stickers say. Further you make a rather illogical assumption that the Fusion with new powertrains can be as reliable as the past models with antiquated powertrains. That probably won't happen.
    Lastly, with our erstwhile new President's 'Buy American' initiative, it would seem that the Camry (or the Sonata) should be the choice there as well? :P
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    The sales to fleet and rental markets help keep factories producing to cover the cost of manpower in those union factories. It's like the japanese producing and selling here at dumping prices on all kinds of things to keep factories at home running.

    The idea they produces substandard vehicles to do it isn't right. Rental markets often wanted bare minimum equipment to keep the price low to the rentals. Same for fleet buyers. So the cars had minimum equipment. See your point #1.


    You misunderstood my point. They were making substandard vehicles 10-15 years ago. Period. On top of that, they were overproducing them to keep the factories humming because they had to pay the UAW workers whether they worked or not. This caused huge rebates which lowered the cost of the new cars by several thousand dollars which accordingly lowers the value of used cars. In addition to all that they were dumping large numbers of sedans into rental fleets which also caused a glut of high mileage used vehicles, further eroding resale values.

    The cars are no longer substandard (well, GM and Ford that is. Not sure about Chrysler right now) and they're no longer overproducing vehicles and dumping large percentages to fleet. And they're making more desirable products with better reliability. That's why resale value has improved and should stay that way.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,234
    I think D3 have to over list their car prices because they have to give bigger incentives and rebates. If things continue improving then this may change in a few years.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    They tested the FEs of The Fusion Hybird vs. the Camry Hybird and it wasn't the Toyota that used the most gas despite what the window stickers say.


    Last time I checked 34 (Fusion) was higher than 31 (Camry) (300 mile test). The only test that the Camry won was a 80 mile highway trip. Fusion won the rest and the EPA test, which is the only "controlled" test where you know everything is equal. You can argue a lot of areas where the competition might be better than the Fusion, but fuel economy is NOT one of them, at least not right now.


    Further you make a rather illogical assumption that the Fusion with new powertrains can be as reliable as the past models with antiquated powertrains. That probably won't happen.


    Oh, so that only works for the imports, huh? There is nothing drastically "new"
    about the new powertrains. The 2.5L is a newer version of the 2.3L but with less noise and better FE. The hybrid is basically the same one used in the Escape for several years. The 3.0L is an improved version of the old engine and the 3.5L is the same one that's been out for years in the Edge and Taurus.

    You're really stretching now.......
  • I figured it was going to be a hard adjustment for some folks.

    It can be upsetting with the model for how the universe works changes.

    I noticed the 6 speed manual 2.5l 4 cylinder SE has a SYNC/sunroof quick order option. That sounds promising.

    And that is even before we get to the "top-rated" hybrid, which has more safety features (standard and optional) then I've seen on the Camry. I can't even compare it to my '07 Accord, it can't even play an MP3 or connect to an iPod.

    Its okay to be a fan. The status quo wasn't working...the people voted for change, Ford is on board as well.
  • There are two types of fleet sales that are getting lumped together.

    Rental fleets, like Hertz, Avis, etc, are looking for low cost reliable vehicles so they can keep costs low for rental customers. This is good for them, bad for resale.

    Then there are commercial customers like MickyDs or Comcast or DTE which buy a large number of vehicles each year. These fleet users give a lot of feedback into the design cycle and are pretty much good for everyone. Another example is the Escape hybrids in the NY taxi fleet - what a great way to get accelerated life testing.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,371
    Thanks for the explanation. I agree.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    The Impala is a decent car but it's getting dated for sure. GM has not updated it much since it came out in 2006. I tested one but the Malibu is a much more modern car and I was willing to give up a little space to be in an up to date car. I have zero regrets, Malibu is a fantastic car.

    Chevy needs an all new Impala soon but I think it may be on hold because of the recession and GM's financial issues.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    "I don't think that a midsize Chevy/Ford is worth that much. This is due in part to the lousy resale value of American cars. Also, I just don't think that a Chevy is anything more than budget transportation regardless of how nice one is on the inside. Thus, in my opinion the "image" associated with Chevy doesn't warrant spending a lot on a loaded Chevy. In my neck of the woods, I only know one person my age who drives an American sedan and they drive a base Impala which they bought because of price, they used a supplier discount".

    Take a Malibu for a drive, you will be shocked as to how good it is and how well it's built. There is no doubt I would never have really looked hard at a Chevy before the New Malibu came but it is a top notch sedan. Put your bias aside and test one.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    There is no doubt I would never have really looked hard at a Chevy before the New Malibu came but it is a top notch sedan. Put your bias aside and test one.

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Why don't you put your Malibu bias aside? Sorry, I won't ask you to do that, because you are entitled to an opinion as well.

    I have driven a Malibu and I felt is was very cheap. I am interested in the new Fusion, as far as American goes. Chrysler? Please....it's only a matter of days before they are gone.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Last time I checked 34 (Fusion) was higher than 31 (Camry) (300 mile test). The only test that the Camry won was a 80 mile highway trip.
    you are the source of the Ford press releases not me - and would say something like 'siginficantly better' FE and then use those figures to insinuate that the $1100.00 price difference would be quickly recovered with this. All I referenced was a specific test by Car and Driver that refutes your press relea, and would seem to indicate that maybe you wouldn't save anything by buying the Ford.
    The Camry did take a fall recently , mostly because of the new 6 spd AT, with the truly new Camry and the drivetrains (V6) that came with it. So much so that even CR dropped its 'automatic' approval for the V6 versions of the Camry. So it seems that not even Toyota with all its billions is immune to teething problems - so now you want to contend that Ford will be successful with this - where Toyota didn't (the ratings for the V6 Camry improved rapidly). Yet another one of your press releases I guess - Ford with no money will be successful doing something that not even Toyota , with all that money - can do? Be real, probably won't happen. :confuse:
    The 3.0, 3.5 and 3.7 were recently noted by CR (the 09 Auto issue) as still being relatively rough and unrefined (surprise, surprise) , so if you now wish to claim that the V6 is nothing more than yet another DT, or that the 2.5 is nothing more than yet another 2.3 - then in both cases the buyer is getting something less than what is offered by the Fusion's competitors. The 3.5 has been around a whole 3 years BTW - reliability ratings (and reviews) for the Edge and Taurus have been unremarkable at best. 3 years is hardly enough time to make any kind of judgement about the reliability of the supposedly new DT - although the results so far have not been that encouraging.
    Just calling a spade a spade, something very difficult to do when you look at the world thru blue ovalled glasses.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    Grasping at straws is an understatement. I guess change is really hard for some folks to accept.

    And BTW - I did NOT insinuate that you could recover the $1100 price difference (if that's what it really is - somehow I doubt those vehicles have the same equipment level) based on better fuel economy. I said IF that was the price difference then it might be justified based on several things including better FE but also including subjective differences like styling, ride quality, handling etc.

    YOU said the camry used less gas and I see 5 out of 6 tests that say otherwise (2 EPA tests and 3 out of 4 C&D tests).

    You're dropping your straws........
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Having extensively driven a 3.5L Honda and the 3.5L Taurus, I can tell you that yes, the Honda is a bit smoother, but frankly, I've yet to find an engine with as sweet of a note as the Honda has. It's a sewing machine at low revs and a motorcycle at high ones.

    That said, the Ford isn't rough or "unrefined." Instead, it is very smooth at low revs, but lacks the sweet sound of the Honda. At high revs, the Ford has an great growl. Sounds powerful like the Honda, but in a different way.

    For what its worth, in my close family, we have a V6 Honda, 5 4-cyl Hondas, the Taurus, and a 4.0L I6 Jeep!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I did NOT insinuate that you could recover the $1100 price difference
    Ahh, now I understand, this would be the difference between Fordspeak and the English language I guess -

    Your post #11574:

    As for the price difference on the Ford Fusion Hybrid versus the Toyota - I'm sure there is a difference in standard equipment. But even so, don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability

    No implication there about recovering the extra money? No?

    I only referenced a specific test (C&D (02-09) Hybrid test) that refutes your 'significantly' better FE statemrent and also your claim for "BETTER' reliability something we simply don't have statistics for yet. The Fusion Hybrid is after all a 2010 model.
    It actually surprises me that you aren't crowing from the rooftops :confuse: - the Fusion Hybrid 'won' that comparo I'm referencing - despite the disparity in the claimed FE. To Ford's credit, they have apparently produced a car that drives less like a refirgerator than the others- something the enthusiast mags would obviously like.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    So how did Ford manage 41 mpg in the EPA city test? Do you think it was rigged? Or is it possible that the EPA driving cycle allows the Fusion to run on battery power a lot longer than the C&D testers did? That requires light acceleration and you know the C&D testers probably weren't driving that way. How is it that journalists managed 40+ and in some cases as much as 52 mpg in the FFH? It can be done.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    I see you are GM fan since you have a Malibu and Montana van. Come on admit it you would have considered a Malibu regardless of quality because after all you drive a Montana and used to have a 2000 Oldsmobile. So what cars did you drive besides a Malibu? Did you even try the Accord? Did you buy the Malibu because it was cheaper?

    I just think that few people actually cross shop an Accord/Camry and Malibu and actually buy the Malibu unless they are predisposed to buy a GM product. For the most part there are basically two categories of buyers, people people who buy Japanese and people who buy American. Few people bounce back and forth between an American sedan and a Japanese sedan. Unfortunatetly for the Big Three fewer people are buying American. I still think that Toyota and Honda are considered premium brands in comparison to Chevy and Ford. When is the last time that you saw a yuppie, who wasn't selling something, driving a Malibu? The reason for this is that the Big Three are only now starting to build decent cars after building crap since the 1980's.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    So how did Ford manage 41 mpg in the EPA city test?
    finally a good question, and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about - yes the Fusion is 'programmed' to allow for all electric use to a higher speed than the TCH. Toyota, historically, has been a champion of setting its cars up to specifically do well in the EPA tests, Ford it seems has outdone them in this case. But the EPA tests have never really been terribly accurate reflections of the real world, something that apparently is continuing to be a problem.
    Did Ford rig the test? No, not likely. They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them. Can you point to some journalist somewhere that can go out and rather dangerously have some 'fun' hypermiling - sure it can be done - and that would be the case for either the FFH or the TCH...
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them.

    You forgot to point out how Ford programmed their airbags to make them perform better in crash tests too. We all know they are the same old vehicles with the same old engines. They just hired some top MIT programmers and voila', the cars test better all around! That's what it's all about right? Tests?

    There isn't a single bad review of the new Fusion in existence yet and not one picks any other sedan over it (although a full comparo has yet to be done). Apparently there's more than programming and government testing at work here captain.

    and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about

    It's actually answered better here but you did sum it up fairly well. MT says they'll do another comparo and try to exploit the Fusion's ability to go faster on the batttery alone to see if the mileage increases significantly. I don't see how it wouldn't.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,723
    That isn't some "programming" trick - it's quite an engineering feat to allow the vehicle to go that fast on battery power alone. The Escape was also better than average but not as good as the Fusion (47 mph). Ford has clearly out-engineered Toyota in this area (for now at least) and it shows in the EPA tests and most real world tests as well.

    Driving style has everything to do with mpg as evidenced by Autoblog's mileage test with the FFH. Two editors got over 40 mpg (as high as 46) while the other one only got 36. These are unscientific tests, though.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    It's actually answered better
    Got my mags confused :blush: Thanks for the link.
    C&D did do a hybrid comparo recently that the Fusion came out on top of though. It certainly does seem logical that if the Fusion is allowing a few extra mphs on the electric motor, that overall FE would be better IF real life driving allowed that condition to happen, something that is not logically happening under the admittedly aggressive hands of MT's drivers. I think the TCH will do things like 0-60 faster (7.6 vs. 8.5) though, leading one to believe that the TCH may be geared more towards the acceleration side of things than the Ford. Sub 8 sec 0-60s pretty darn quick for almost any car, never mind one that can return that kind of FE.
    I have no problem with the Fusion itself, it has done much to mend a pretty lousy 'Detroit' reputation. This has been almost universally noted and recognized by quite a number of repected auto experts. Ford the company, however, a different story, and not because of what they are beginning to produce, but instead where they are producing it - and at whose expense.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I think the Prius remains Toyota's engineering tour-de-force as far as milking the hybrid drivetrain for all it's worth. In any case, however, it is that high level of engineering in any of this type of cars that ALLOWS the mfgrs. to do these 'tricks' I contend they ultimately do all to to pry those precious few extra mpgs out of any car.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Before my Intrigue I had an Accord and before that a Civic. I would never have considered the previous Malibu, it was cheap plastic everywhere and pretty bla in terms of styling. Montana van is for my wife's business, I rarely drive it.

    Before buying a Malibu I tested an Accord, an Impala, an Altima and a Fusion. I used to like Hondas but I see the value of many American brands which is why we have had a few GM's now. I actually almost went with a Fusion but I could not find an 08 left with a V6 when I went to buy. I actually had trouble finding a 08 Malibu also, they sold out quick in the fall when GM had 0% for 72 months in the fall. Honda had 1.9% for 48 months or 3.9% for 60, not near as good. I also didn't care for the dash or the looks of the new Accord.

    My friends are mostly professionals and it's really a mix of U.S. vs Japanese vs Euro. My single yuppie buddy has a Beemer, I can't afford that. Chevy was pretty basic transportation until recently. The Malibu, the Traverse and the coming Equinox and Cruze should slowly give it a more Honda like image though it will take a long while. That said, my Malibu looks very upscale and everyone who sees it and sits in it quickly realizes how nice it is.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    You fail to mention however you will pay upwards of $3,000-$5,000 more for a comparably equipped Camry/Accord. Also, what about the better financing you will most likely get and the interest you save over the 5 year loan with the Sonata? What about the 10 year warranty also. No repairs out of pocket for the Sonata.
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