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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    the anti-Ford attitude in this room. Ford has come a long way since the 80's. Seems as though some just can't get out of that mind set. I find it ironic how a Toyota or Honda product can improve, yet a Ford product cannot?. Or better yet, A Ford (Fusion Hybrid) outperforming a Toyota (Camry Hybrid)?? Some say it cannot happen, test was rigged? Well, folks, its happened. Take a look around the internet the Fusion Hybrid is pounding the Camry Hybrid. Yes, Ford out engineered Toyota. Heck! I can imagine what is going to happen when Hyundai out engineers Honda. No, this cannot happen.. :sick:
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,240
    I beg to differ with ya; I was upfront with the vehicles I chose. Lower model Accords compete with upper level Sonatas on price. Same with Elantra/Civic.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The discussion was resale value, not retail price used. Resale value is either trade-in value or private party sale value; not used retail price. For the majority of people out there it will equate to trade-in value as relatively few go through the added steps of doing a private party sale.

    To reiterate my point, if Car A cost $20K new and is worth $5K resale while Car B cost $23K new and has a resale of $7K, then Car B's higher resale in reality means Car B cost $1K more to own than Car A (other operating cost differences excluded). The brands, models, equipment levels, etc. do not matter.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    To reiterate my point, if Car A cost $20K new and is worth $5K resale while Car B cost $23K new and has a resale of $7K, then Car B's higher resale in reality means Car B cost $1K more to own than Car A (other operating cost differences excluded). The brands, models, equipment levels, etc. do not matter.

    I don't think many buyers consider this. Some cars, with higher resale value, are also easier to sell when the time comes. You will always get more selling it yourself, than from a trade-in.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    since I guess I'll plead guilty as charged as far as an anti-Ford attitude goes, I'll ask you - how do you feel about a supposedly 'American' company borrowing gobs of money specifically to buy out contracts of real working Americans and closing dozens of US plants just so they can put even more Americans onto welfare? And all the while they continue to support those economies in foreign countries by opening new plants on the other sides of our border and employing the citizens there! All of this has nothing to do with their products much, of course, but you too should be at least a bit 'anti-Ford' IMO - there is nothing that the company has done recently or is planning on doing TMK that is going to anything but hurt any efforts we in this country might make to pull ourselves out of this economic mess we are in.
    Ford's hybrid system in the FFH is apparently quite similar to Toyota's and not like those 'pseudo' systems offered by other mfgrs ( except Nissan who licenses use of the system from Toyota) - whether Ford simply copied it, properly developed it independently, or whether we have patent infringement lawsuits in front of us remains to be seen.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I don't think many buyers consider this
    oh, I think they do, this is one of the ultimate justifications for spending the extra bucks on that Camcord.. Resale value. The cheapest cars to own in this segment are NOT generally the cheapest to buy or even maintain and haven't been for a long long time.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Show me where Ford has requested or taken a single penny from the government. Go ahead - I'll wait.

    Let's ignore that they moved Focus production OUT of mexico and back to the U.S. to make room for the triplets. Let's ignore that the 2010 Euro Focus will be built in the U.S. Ford is a global company and the Fusion is sold in latin and south america, too. Same for the upcoming Fiesta. Trucks, SUVS, mustang, taurus/mks, edge/mkx, flex, crown vic/grand marquis - all made in the U.S. or Canada. Get over it already.

    Ford's hybrid system in the FFH is apparently quite similar to Toyota's.....whether Ford simply copied it, properly developed it independently, or whether we have patent infringement lawsuits in front of us remains to be seen.

    No it does not "remain to be seen". Ford has publicly stated that no Toyota patented technology exists in the FFH and that none of the patents that they licensed for the Escape are applicable to the FFH. The fact that Toyota has not challenged this says all you need to know.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Some personally directed posts have been removed. Let's keep the conversation focused on the cars rather than the people who are talking about them. Thanks.
  • Elroy, its great to see you posting, you are my last home for a question on Honda features...

    Can you disable the function that re-locks the doors if you don't open it in time after hitting the unlock button on the transmitter?
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,018
    If you own a Saturn and are willing to talk with a reporter about your experience, please contact jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, February 20, 2008.

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    A little tired of the two person dialog on why Ford does or doesn't do this or that so I'll make a few comments on what I noticed at the show today.

    1. Chevy...new Cruze looks like a winner but it is three to five years too late. Volt could also be a winner but sell it already. Camaro's interior is pathetic. Hard plastic everywhere, toylike looking gauges....very cheap overall on the interior. I was very disappointed.

    2. Ford...some very nice products. New Taurus and Fusion are very nice but the 2010 models were locked up tight so you couldn't really evaluate....what a shame because the interiors looked nice through the glass.

    3. Chrysler....I walked through and didn't see anything I liked or that looked good except the Challenger which is just a hair too big for my taste.

    4. Toyota...2010 Prius---locked up tight. No 2010 Camry to even look at let alone get inside. Sat in a Venza. Fairly nice but a fair amount of cheap hard plastic and minimum size tires were 19s. What's up with that? How much do 19 in. tires cost to replace anyway. This tire size business is getting out of hand.

    5. Something I noticed is that Infiniti G37 vs. Lexus ES350 is no comparison. The G37 is just appears much better made inside and out. Push the steering wheel tilt button in the G37 and the whole dash moves with the steering wheel so you always have a perfect view of the gauges. Very nice and I don't think any other manufacuturer does that.

    6. Kia....I was very interested in seeing the new Optima and the new Forte(Spectra replacement). The Optima was absolutely ridiculous in regards to interior cheapness. The Forte from what I could see was actually nicer looking inside than the Optima but it was also locked up. What is with these manufacturers? I can see locking up a 150K Mercedes but a 15K Forte. Please.

    7. I liked the Hyundai Sonata but nothing new there. The Genesis was very nice...quality...stylish. The new Elantra Touring was there but locked up. Had a sign on it that it going to be coming FALL 2008. Isn't this 2009 already and shouldn't you be able to sit in this thing.

    I could go on and on but probably will bore so I'll close. It was a decent show and attendence versus last year was probably down about 10% from what I saw.(I went on the same day of the week last year).
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    since I guess I'll plead guilty as charged as far as an anti-Ford attitude goes, I'll ask you - how do you feel about a supposedly 'American' company borrowing gobs of money specifically to buy out contracts of real working Americans and closing dozens of US plants just so they can put even more Americans onto welfare?

    Ford has not taken a penny from the government.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I think the 8th gen Accords can be programed to lock/unlock at different times, but I have seen nothing about the 7th gen being able to do that. Sorry :( I think you bought your car "1" year too early. 07 right?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Ford has not taken a penny from the government.

    To be fair to captain2 he didn't say they borrowed it from the govt. He just said they borrowed money which they did do.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    If Ford had no intention of taking any of the bailout $$, they should not have attended the meeting with Chrysler and GM. Of course, until they do, I have more respect for Ford than the other two. The fact that the Fusion is built in Mexico, kind of ruins the "Buy American" appeal of it. Doesn't it?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    It certainly does seem logical that if the Fusion is allowing a few extra mphs on the electric motor, that overall FE would be better IF real life driving allowed that condition to happen, something that is not logically happening under the admittedly aggressive hands of MT's drivers.

    Well it's not a few extra mphs, it's actually about double the TCH's 20-something mph limit on battery alone. There are other online mags reporting over 40 mpg while trying to max FE so I'm interested to see what MT comes up with if they can restrain themselves long enough. :)

    My daily drive is roughly 80-90% city so I could see myself using the battery a lot in the FFH. That is if the big hills don't force the ICE to kick on all the time. So I believe my "real life" experience with one would nearly verify the EPA's rating. However the lack of AWD in the FFH takes it off my list altogether.

  • My daily drive is roughly 80-90% city so I could see myself using the battery a lot in the FFH. That is if the big hills don't force the ICE to kick on all the time. So I believe my "real life" experience with one would nearly verify the EPA's rating. However the lack of AWD in the FFH takes it off my list altogether.


    Are the Escape and Highlander the only AWD hybrids available?

    Maybe the next generation will be more like a modern diesel locomotive with an electric motor on each wheel and the ICE or compression ignition motor is just a generator. A Honda "SH" type drivetrain (originally on the Prelude, then spread through the Acuras) but instead of a bunch of differentials distributing power, just have a separate electric motor on each wheel.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Thanks for the report from Chicago. I last got there a couple of years ago, what a great show--much bigger than the one in the Twin Cities.

    I am curious what you found "ridiculously cheap" in the Optima, since from what I've seen the interior is mostly carryover from the 2008 Optima, which I always thought had a pretty nice interior for its price.

    Did you happen to stop by the Subaru area and see the 2010 Legacy?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The discussion was resale value, not retail price used. Resale value is either trade-in value or private party sale value; not used retail price.

    Um, I used private party numbers, like you say. Check kbb.com for yourself, use ZIP Code 35209. :)

    I chose the different models to represent the retail price WHEN NEW. The Accord LX would be similar to a loaded Sonata WHEN NEW.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,240
    My point still stands. There is no need to mention specific models, brands, or equipment levels. If a car that cost more new doesn't recoup at least the price difference at resale/trade-in time, then it has cost more to own than the vehicle it is being compared to.

    Despite what the marketers would have you believe, higher resale is a false indication of value. The actual indication is how many dollars the vehicle has cost you to own. Which means the depreciation in dollars.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    If Ford had no intention of taking any of the bailout $$, they should not have attended the meeting with Chrysler and GM.

    They attended to put their hat in the ring and get preapproval for a loan if things got a lot worse, but mostly to show support for GM and Chrysler to get their loans because either one going under would have a huge negative impact on Ford because they share suppliers.
  • I did too much research and moved from a Honda accord to a sonata a base V6 which had some big ticket item failure and non aligning front wheels in the honda to a fully loaded sonata. after 100k decided to get a mazda 6i what a wonderfull car. then i moved up to the 2007 camry...
    well the camry gives me uninspired driving experience the mazda 6i was a hoot to drive and camry is a passion killer. I am so not into it i that i do care if i drive my 00 tauras or 07 camry which i never had with the 6. sadly it feels like 00 accord and how i felt .

    according to most reviewers and critic i have a great car why i do not feel so i do not get.

    after reading so many wondefull reviews and thread i have a upgraded in $$$ ,resale
    and dependability .

    shocking stat living in the north east , i ended up putting more miles on my bicycle and motorcycle than my camry last year .
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Show me where Ford has requested or taken a single penny from the government. Go ahead - I'll wait.
    well at least we do have some Ford guys (baggs32) that can actually read posts - I didn't say Ford had taken any of our tax money - only that they borrowed money (a $23 billion junk bond issue if I'm not mistaken) AND that they further used at least a good part of that money so they could to close plants, buy out labor contracts, and put even more Americans on the unemployment roles. Please please Mr. Press Release tell me it ain't so - go ahead I'll wait. :(
    I'll agree that there would seem to be a good possibility that Ford did not borrow too heavily from Toyota in their Hybrid system - but certainly not because Ford says so - what would you expect them to say? More likely because Toytoa hasn't sued them yet, as you mention. Toyota has every right to be protective and proud of their innovations and leadership in Hybrid technologies and I'm sure they have plenty enough money to sick a whole flock of lawyers on anybody or anything that they could prove violated some of their patents.
    Made in Canada is really no better than Made in Mexico as neither really helps the US economy, it also deosn't matter which particular models are made over the borders only that they are doing it and Ford is obviously not the only guilty party in this.
    It is to the credit to Ford and the beancounters that have been in charge that Ford doesn't have its hands out right now - they had already made many of those hard choices that the governemnt is now forcing on GM as part of the loan terms of the money that they are getting. IMO - and a bit off topic - I am torn on this whole loans to automakers routine - on one hand anything that they (the former Big3) do to 'survive' is likely going to cost some real honest taxpaying Americans their jobs and likewise turn some areas of our country into economic disasters - so therfore we need to insure their survival. Vs. the fact that the 'American' auto industry hasn't been a factor of any consequence in the car business for many many years now - their choice - so therefore they don't deserve the help. Let them go back to making trucks and SUVS and hope that gas doesn't get to $4-5 again. Tough choices for sure.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    At last year's show I wanted to sit in the Optima but there was an older couple of that took up residence in it and after waiting several minutes I just could look. This year I sat in it and expected something similar to the Sonata but it just was very plain and a lot of hard plastic. The Kia and Sonata exhibits were in two complete separate showrooms so it was hard to go between two for a really good comparison but that was my impression. You know sometimes at those shows if you sit in a Beemer, then an Infiniti then a Kia it could possibly bias a person. I'm not a professional reviewer so I can't say if that may have influenced my opinion or not. I was hoping to like the interior because I think the exterior of the Optima is really good looking....better than the Sonata.

    I sat in a Legacy but I'm not sure if it was the 2010 or not. I sat in a "special edition" and I didn't really think it was that special. Interior was tight, door seemed tinny and no frame around the window seemed a little fragile. Dash looked kind of old fashioned and headroom was tight and I'm only 5'9" but the seat may have adjusted high, not sure. It may have the 2009. If the 2010 was there it must have been in back of the display area which I didn't get to.

    A side note. Mazda has a 2009 Mazda6 sport, no options at all except auto trans that I could tell. That was open to sit in. They had a black 09 Mazda6 Grand Touring with all the bells/whistles there but it was locked up. Not a good way to advertise IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    When a company loses market share AND overall sales decline, they can't sell as many cars as they used to. Therefore, they need fewer employees and plants. They did not move work out of the country - they got rid of excess capacity. The alternative was to keep plants and workers on the payroll with nothing to do. If they did that then they would be bankrupt already. Ford is actually retooling existing U.S. plants for things like the new Focus from Europe and other more fuel efficient vehicles and powertrains.

    Why is it so hard for you to believe that Ford actually developed their hybrid system without ANY assistance from Toyota? It's the truth. Even Toyota admits it. Why can't you?

    And with that, I'm done on this topic.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    after 100k decided to get a mazda 6i what a wonderfull car. then i moved up to the 2007 camry...
    well the camry gives me uninspired driving experience


    What led you to believe that a Camry woud do anything other than that? I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that that is the car for those who want a soft ride and don't care about things like steering "feel".
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    The Japanese/Korean governments have been giving their auto industry favorable treatment for decades now. Meaning tax breaks, tax cuts and incentives. Why is this any different from what our government is doing for the U.S. auto industry?
    For now Ford has not taken any tax dollars. Yes, Ford did see the future and did get some money lined up for the now. How do you fault Ford for doing this? Ford is not struggling in Europe or Asia either. Ford is doing a great job in the quality and safety regions of car manufacturing. Ford has more models with 5 star crash ratings than Honda! I just cannot believe the bias and decent in this forum for anything that doesn't have a Toyota or Honda badge in this forum. Just puzzles me, when a car company, any car company is doing good things it should be recognized. Hyundai has made great strides in quality. VW is shedding its quality issues of the late also. If GM can turn its ship around, kudos to GM. :surprise:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Well, comparing the Sonata's interior to that of the Optima, I could see how the Optima would pale in comparison, as the Sonata's dash in particular looks a lot more modern than the Optima's, IMO. But overall the Optima's interior seemed well-finished to me, if a bit dated in the dash design. For example, I like the cloth on the Optima much better than that in the Sonata--unless Kia changed the cloth for 2009.

    If the Legacy seemed cramped, it was probably the 2009. The 2010 is supposed to be roomier. Probably has not made its debut yet.

    I also don't get this "let's keep the cars locked" strategy, unless it's a prototype or something special that is on a pedestal. I mean, the whole idea of car shows is to SELL CARS, right? :confuse:
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Are the Escape and Highlander the only AWD hybrids available?

    Other than some luxury and poser hybrids (Saturn VUE, GM Pickups to name a couple) that's all I know of. Escape Hybrids are VERY hard to come by around here and there's usually a long wait list for them. Since I'll never buy a Toyota, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so, the Highlander never made my list. :)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The fact that the Fusion is built in Mexico, kind of ruins the "Buy American" appeal of it. Doesn't it?

    If we are going to go down that road, then is the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima (with too many more to mention) Japanese since they are built in America?
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Ford designed their system on their own, the only problem is, they happened to design a system very much like the Toyota system, so to avoid patent issues, Ford licensed the technology from Toyota, while Toyota licensed non hybrid fuel system technology from Ford. It is quite possible that designers half a world away from each other, with no communications whatsoever between them can come up with nearly identical solutions. When you think about how the technology works, the solution is pretty much the same, regen braking, electric motors, CVT trans, and a gas engine, the workings are the same. The Ford system is a Ford designed and built system, that just so happens to be very close to Toyota's systems. I think ford and Toyota did the right thing with the licensing so both can produce hybrids.

    I also feel that Ford saw the light early on when they came out with the Fusion, and other models, and put real quality back into them. They knew that the SUV/Truck market would falter eventually and needed something to fall back on, and to come out with a car that is on par or above the Toyota/Honda models was the real ticket. I have a Camry Hybrid, and let me tell you, the quality in the Fusion is far better than the Camry. If Ford has that Hybrid out last year, I might be driving that instead.
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