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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    then is the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Subaru Legacy, Nissan Altima (with too many more to mention) Japanese since they are built in America?
    where something is physically built has an awful lot to do with its abilities to contribute to our economies - locally and nationally. To me the vintage (or national origin) of a brand name should have less to do with a altruistic purchase decisions than about anything else. If I were ever to consider something like the Fusion seriously, I first would have to be comfortable with my hard earned dollars ending up in Mexico and not where I feel it belongs..
    In all fairness, however, to those not-so American' American' cars, however, the Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans etc. only produce cars here because it insulates them from the vagaries of the American dollar and they can make more money doing it this way, given that they have the freedom to locate their plants where they want and employ who they want. Options generally not available to what used to be the Big 3.
    Ford did not HAVE to build the Fusion in Mexico, and I can't believe that even the UAW had they been presented with an offer along the lines of 'work with me here or I'll close these plants and move to Mexico' wouldn't have made some of the needed concessions. Makes little sense to bite the hand that feeds you.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I can't believe that even the UAW had they been presented with an offer along the lines of 'work with me here or I'll close these plants and move to Mexico' wouldn't have made some of the needed concessions. Makes little sense to bite the hand that feeds you.

    You obviously don't understand the UAW, because that is exactly what they've said time and time again. If they were willing to make concessions to get more work they would have put that in the latest contract, but they didn't. They didn't need to, because they had the jobs bank to guarantee work for all existing employees and protecting existing employees was more important than getting new work.

    I'm sure that's all different now, since the jobs bank is basically gone and the UAW is conceding on pay and benefits now. But that's the way it was just 2 years ago.

    And did you stop and think that by building the Fusion in Mexico they could use the profits to subsidize production of other vehicles in the U.S. - like the current and upcoming Euro Focus? Or consider that the profits from the imports go out of the country? So would you rather have profits that can be reinvested in other American products or just the hourly wages from the factory workers?

    Oh good grief - why do I even bother?
  • berriberri Posts: 4,261
    Isn't this all kind of academic? I mean every company sources things from all over the world. While a corporation may have its headquarters in one country, it pays taxes (direct and indirect) everywhere it operates and the stock markets are global today so a company in Country A may actually have more stockholders elsewhere around the globe. The logic that if you don't buy from a US corporation is dangerous because if that is the case why should Europeans buy Ford's or Asians buy Boeing jets? We may not like it, but the 21st century is global. You either operate that way or you're toast.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Ford is only in better shape because they drew huge loans before the credit crisis really hit the fan and GM and Chrysler did not. If thing get worse they will need more funds and will draw on loans. They were either smart or lucky but it was a good more in hind site.

    Ford is in better shape regardless though. GM is so big it takes twice as long to change anything and Chrysler has the weakest line up. I suspect all three companies will survive this down turn but it's not going to be pretty.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    And this has what to do with comparing midsize 4-door models currently on-sale?

    I'm replying to this post, but am not targeting just vanman.

    Can we get back to the cars? There is another page for the business talk.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    they could use the profits to subsidize production of other vehicles in the U.S.
    What profits - FoMoCo as well as their Detroit compadres will be operating on tax credits for years to come for all the money they have lost in the last few years. So they won't even have to pay any iincome taxes even if they magically start to make money again. FoMoCo specifically got that treasured junk bond rating because they may not be able to service their own debt - those imagineary profits are already spent. It's tough to reinvest profits that don't exist. Or maybe, if they did have some profits they could do what Toyota did for example and spend a billion dollars building a truck plant in Texas. Or the $800 million that Hyundai spent in Alabama. I go on and on
    Oh, and all those Texans and Alabamans that now have decent jobs courtesy of Toyota and Hyundai spend their wages and pay taxes in their local economies - it really would be better if those folks spoke Spanish and worked instead for Ford and paid taxes in Mexico, I guess?
    Defending Ford's decisions to build things in foreign countries as being good for Ford is one thing - trying to turn it into something that can in any way be good for this country is flat out idiotic and illustrates no understanding of economics...
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    But there is a good point on the Tariffs, the US needs to work on getting the Tariffs down so US manufacturers can export good to other countries and be more competitive. Good example is Caterpillar, For them to Export, there is a $100,000 additional cost to buyer in other countries for some of the heavy equipment that Cat makes. With the Tariffs in place, what choice do US manufacturers have but to outsource to other countries in order to compete in the global market?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Well, it was a good try.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Not taking the bait this time. Take your rants elsewhere.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    It is silly to pretend that the only jobs provided by a company such as Ford (or Toyota) are those on the assembly lines...such as those for midsize cars :) . It might of interest to compare the total payrolls:

    The data I found is Ford employs about 73,000 in the US (Ford, Chrysler, and GM together directly employ 240,000), while Toyota employs 30,000 in the US.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    The data I found is Ford employs about 73,000 in the US (Ford, Chrysler, and GM together directly employ 240,000), while Toyota employs 30,000 in the US
    Have no doubt that this coul be true - and this would be the reason to favor the bail out, although maybe we should attach some strings that would require that the recipients of the money to use it to keep real Americans employed (meaning keeping those US plants open) and not do what Ford has recently done with the money they borrowed.
    The real point (or rant as some would call it) is that IF keeping money in this country (and a contribution to the the continued economic health of this country) is a buyer's motivation then the Fusion is going to be near the bottom of the list in this group, and things like the Malibu/G6/Sebring/Aura are going to be closer to the top.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Below are things we should try and talk about here.

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image

    Et cetera, et cetera. Can we PLEASE talk about "Midsize Sedans?"
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    Can we PLEASE talk about "Midsize Sedans?

    Sure grad. Just get that full-size sedan out of your post and we'll talk. :P

    Hint: It's the white one.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Aura? What Aura? ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    It's clearly an EX-L model.

    HINT: It has a sunroof!

    :)

    Has anyone seen a full test of the new Fusion NON-HYBRID model?
  • Below are things we should try and talk about here.

    Hey, where's the 6? :)

    Haven't seen any tests of the non-Hybrid Fusion yet, but did see a Hybrid (as well as the Sport) at the Auto Expo here a couple weeks ago. The '10 Sport just went to the top of my list of cars to test-drive when I replace my 6 in about 18 months. The interior is leagues above the current Fusion, and the 3.5L will do very well in a car like this, no matter how "unrefined" some people think it is. ;)

    I've heard that the 6-speed SelectShift that Ford is planning to use with the 3.5L automatically blips the throttle when manually downshifted. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I've heard that the 6-speed SelectShift that Ford is planning to use with the 3.5L automatically blips the throttle when manually downshifted. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

    Confirmed.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I've heard that the 6-speed SelectShift that Ford is planning to use with the 3.5L automatically blips the throttle when manually downshifted. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

    Confirmed.

    Allen,
    Just exactly what does "blips the throttle" mean?
    Boz
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    It means the computer modulates the throttle during a shift (when using the paddles) to match the RPM for a smoother shift. In a true manual it would be equivalent to tapping the accelerator while the clutch is engaged just prior to selecting the next gear.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and the 3.5L will do very well in a car like this, no matter how "unrefined" some people think it is. ;)
    if your 'wink' is supposed to mean something - yes I caught it - the only problem
    being that I am certainly not the only one that thinks so - try CR for example - they see the problem in all three DTs something I've been harping on for years (primatily on the 3.0) and they mention in the 09 Auto issue.. Apparently - they need a 'wink' as well, don't you think?
    That said I happen to agree with you, the 3.5 in the Fusion or even better the 3.7 in the 6 should at least put them midpack at the drag races. With those kind of horses it should rarely be necessary for anyone to push the engines hard enough that it becomes bothersome. It is entirely possible to drive cars with this kind of power literally a lifetime and never see anything over 5000 rpm - it is rare you find any engine that is happy (and pleasant) over 6
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    What you think and what other people think are totally different things, and they're 100% subjective. What makes your and CR's opinion more valid than other owners and reviewers who don't feel that way?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    What makes your and CR's opinion more valid than other owners and reviewers who don't feel that way
    Nothing, of course, unless you want to admit that somebody like CR knows more about cars, and compares more cars than either you or I..I also seem to remember the same comments about the 3.5 in the Edge (yes it is a heavier vehicle) in an enthusiast mag. but then they would know nothing as well, I guess.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_guide/ford/edge/2008_ford_edge/2008_ford_edge- _limited_awd_comparison_test+type-reviews_by_make+mode-collection+id-265.html
    Yes, I guess there are a bunch of us that have a different set of standards
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    And I can cite just as many articles where they don't complain about the Duratecs being unrefined. Why can't you accept that some people (and magazines) simply have different standards and what is unrefined to you is perfectly fine to others?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    some people (and magazines) simply have different standards and what is unrefined to you is perfectly fine to others?
    That's fine and is exactly what I said in #11654. Just don't tell me that somehow I'm the only one in the universe that still thinks that the Fusion's engines have been and apparently remain lacking - there are plenty of other idiots just like me.
    You'd have to drive the Toyota 2GR (even in the too soft Camry) and drive it hard to fully appreciate the difference. It is turbine-like sewing machine. The Nissan VQ or the Honda V6 almost as refined.
  • Confirmed.

    VERY cool! Now lets hope Mazda uses it for the 6 as well.

    And yeah, I'd much rather drive a stick and do it myself, but since both Ford and Mazda has lost the cajones to include the option of three pedals with the V6 anymore... :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    It's clearly an EX-L model.

    Clear as mud!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    Haven't seen any tests of the non-Hybrid Fusion yet

    Ask and you shall receive. :shades:

    Fusion Sport Review

    I'm not a big fan of the red interior trim the Sport comes with. Fortunately it does come in blue or black too.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I would not argue that Toyota and Honda engines are great. I've owned 2 hondas and one acura. But it's like comparing a Rolex with a Timex. To me they're the same - they both tell time accurately and I don't notice any differences that would make me spend the extra $$$ on the Rolex. To me the Timex isn't deficient or unrefined. To a watch maker it would be like night and day.

    Don't you find it interesting that the Autoblog article above takes the time to knock the switches and steering wheel but only has raves for the engine and transmission? I guess they're just blind and deaf like the rest of us.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I agree with the reviewer that on a nearly-$30k car, it should have heaters under the leather skins. Also the red interior trim doesn't grab me, but the reviewer seemed to like it.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    it's like comparing a Rolex with a Timex
    good analogy - BUT if you can wear that Rolex for the same cost (or less) as it would to wear the Timex, why not then the Rolex:
    These numbers from Edmunds own 5 year TCO (True Cost to Own) statistics:
    1. Honda Accord EX V6, $25k cash price - $39728 TCO.
    2. Camry LE V6, $25k cash price - $42023.00 TCO
    3 Mazda6 Touring V6, cash price $24k - $42445 TCO.
    3. Sonata SE V6, $22k cash price - $42855.00 TCO
    4. Altima 3.5SE, $28k cash price $43051.00 TCO
    5. Fusion SE V6 $21k cash price $44164.00 TCO
    These numbers are for 2008 models, and do include the expected finance savings for the less expensive cars, as well as recognition of the difference in initial purchase price. Actually surprises me how much the Honda runs away with this and FTM how much more expensive the Fusion is despite the lowest initial cost

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController

    I ask again then, why not the Rolex - the least expensive cars tend to be the most expensive over assumming a 5 year ownership period.
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