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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Agree totally on the 'fusion/milan' thing.
    A choice b/w Accord or Fusion - I would take the Fusion.
    Given a choice b/w Camry/Fusion - u would take the Fusion.
    Hail Fusion :sick:
    Unfortunately, that`s the problem for Fusion.People take the Camry or the Accord.Nobody wants theFusion except for rental fleets who nurse them them for 2 years and then abandon them on the used market to fend for themselves!!!!!
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday.

    This is the main difference between you (a Camry owner) and I (an Accord driver). I want to Drive, and you just want to Ride. I want to feel connected to the car, have a feel for the handling limits, and drive a little, dare I say aggressively :surprise: now and then. You would probably rather sit in the passenger seat and sleep. We could get along well, as long as you don't mind "riding" in an Accord. I could even bring a pillow along, so you can be more comfortable. ;)
  • canddmeyercanddmeyer Posts: 384
    I have to agree with you about the Accord. We got into a Acura TL today, and IMO it had a noisy cabin too, just like the Accord. That was my biggest disappointment. The ride was equal or better. Although the wife was impressed, I'm not sure about dumping $40,000 on a ride with more road noise than I'd like.
  • canddmeyercanddmeyer Posts: 384
    About the Mazda6. We finally got to test drive a Mazda6s GT today. It was good, but not great. It probably didn't help that our salesperson didn't know much about the vehicle they were trying to sell. The ride, while composed, showed every road imperfection. The biggest disappointment from the get-go was the road noise. The 18" tires made noise at all speeds, and while not overly intrusive it made itself known, even at 25mph.

    The seats were very comfortable and the trunk was cavernous. Everything about he vehicle, including the Nav, seemed to be up to snuff. Nothing stood out, but nothing lacked except for the road noise insulation. But we had test drove an Acura TL before driving the Mazda, and the Acura was definitely more car, although at $10,000 more it might be a wash.

    I haven't been in the other midsize vehicles yet, although I'd like to try the latest Malibu. But since it is the wife's daily driver, and since the wife hated previous Malibu Classic rentals, GM probably screwed itself marketing what they did in the rental market. as that's all the renters know for product representation.

    Btw, we got into a Dodge Ram 1500 today. If anyone is considering a new pickup, the 2009 Ram is pretty darn nice.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    And,I wish someone could drive me everyday.

    Hmm...

    Toyota...passengers wanted?

    But you know, even as a passenger, the Camry is not desireable to me. I find the seat cushion to be too short to be really comfortable.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    If u are looking for a luxury car- go with the Lexus.Absolutely the best out there.Go in for a used one-- much cheaper plus Lexus has a bullet proof reliability.
    The ride is the smoothest of any sedan I have seen.If u are planning to spend 40k on an Acura,, u might as well buy a Lexus.As road noise and rough ride are vital to u,an Acura would end up in significant buyers remorse.

    And yes,if a smooth quiet ride is what u like,then definitely avoid the mazda.It`s even rougher and noisier than the Accord.Some people prefer it,some not.

    So go in for used Lexus if u want a luxury car and go in for a Toyota if u want a midsize sedan.For your needs,they are the best choices.

    Just,MHO.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus?

    The internal hardware was jointly developed by GM and Ford, but they use different controllers and different software.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Nobody wants theFusion except for rental fleets who nurse them them for 2 years and then abandon them on the used market to fend for themselves!!!!!

    Toyota puts more Camrys in rental fleets than Ford does with the Fusion. Ford stopped fleet dumping 2 years ago.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    So go in for used Lexus if u want a luxury car and go in for a Toyota if u want a midsize sedan.For your needs,they are the best choices.

    Just,MHO.


    He might have a point; it was pointed out by a high ranking Toyota official that the number one selling flavor of ice cream is vanilla. Also, because of the number of people that just see cars as a means to an end, I would assume the market is ripe for vanilla. I just don't understand why if someone just wanted Vanilla, they wouldn't go for a '04-'07 Taurus and save the 20k on the Camry for a vacation at some isolated resort somewhere.
    Even BMW is removing the dipstick from a lot of their vehicles (the one under the hood, not the one driving :P) because no one checks oil anyway anymore.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    If ride quality,comfort and a quiet cabin are priorities then the Camry is absolutely the best.The 04-07 Ford Tauruses are not even close,plus their reliability is also a big question mark.
    I was replying to the OP`s new car options-- So a new Camry is way better than the new Fusion.
    Also,if a used car was the OP`s priority,, then why go in for a 04-07 Taurus,,when u can go in for a used 02-06 Camry with better reliability.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Even BMW is removing the dipstick from a lot of their vehicles (the one under the hood, not the one driving ) because no one checks oil anyway anymore.

    It makes much more sense to have an oil level monitor that turns on if it gets low. This is done for windshield washer fluid, why not oil. Way back in 1997, my Windstar had a monitor with a light to tell you that the windshield washer fluid is low. Why do that, but continue to rely on a dip stick for oil?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    If ride quality,comfort and a quiet cabin are priorities then the Camry is absolutely the best. The 04-07 Ford Tauruses are not even close,plus their reliability is also a big question mark.

    We appreciate your subjective opinion. I disagree with it, but appreciate it none the less. I just see them as equally miserable to drive I guess.

    Also,if a used car was the OP`s priority,, then why go in for a 04-07 Taurus,,when u can go in for a used 02-06 Camry with better reliability.

    Actually, it was the 02-06 Camry that caused the Camry to lose its red dot in Consumer Reports, so your information is again sounding pretty subjective. Another element in the decision process might be cost, since the 04-07 Taurus is about 1/3 the cost of the Camry.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    It makes much more sense to have an oil level monitor that turns on if it gets low. This is done for windshield washer fluid, why not oil. Way back in 1997, my Windstar had a monitor with a light to tell you that the windshield washer fluid is low. Why do that, but continue to rely on a dip stick for oil?

    How much of the time was the light on? The light in my folks Caravan was on so much it burnt out. All cars have a warning for low oil pressure, some for level, but those both require sensors, those both require messages in the cluster and or warnings and telltales. There is enough data showing that warning lights, tell tales and messages are pretty worthless for anything important in the vehicle.

    I do see your argument though, since no one uses it anyway, its not like the light is going to be any less effective. How are those low tire pressure warning systems working out?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    Actually, it was the 02-06 Camry that caused the Camry to lose its red dot in Consumer Reports, ...

    I am pretty sure it was the 2007+ Camry, and especially the transmission problems on the V6, that lost Camry its "red dot" in CR. In fact, in their latest Annual Auto Issue, they still have the 2003-6 Camrys (mag doesn't go past 2003) as "red dots" for predicted reliability. Up until the Camry's 2007 MY, CR routinely gave Toyota and the Camry a "free pass" on reliability, reporting the Camry was much better than average in predicted reliability even for the first year of a new generation--before they had survey results on that model year. That all changed when CR's survey found problems with the transmission on V6 Camrys in the 2007 MY, and they took away not only the "red dot" but changed their approach on giving Toyota a "free pass" on new designs or redesigns. As of the April 2009 issue of CR, the Camry I4 is above average in predicted reliability for 2007 but only average for 2008. The V6 is only average for 2007 (but has improved from CR's initial rating of below average) and is below average for 2008. But the hybrid Camry is still rated as much higher than average in predicted reliability.

    There are now several mid-sized sedans with better predicted reliability per CR than the non-hybrid Camry--e.g. Accord, Malibu, Fulan, G6, Sonata, and Optima. For all the reasons one might buy a new Camry, best-in-class predicted reliability is not one of them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    Your road test of the Mazda6 GT seems to parallel that of C/D's, where they also complained of road noise. But they tested the i Touring. I wonder how the Mazda6 does on road noise and feel with the base wheels/tires vs. 18-inchers? I've found those big wheels with narrow sidewalls tend to cause more road noise and ride harshness than taller sidewalls.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Only the V6 version of the 2007 Camry got a black dot in Cr reports.
    The 4 cyl version got a red dot.
    The Camry always got excellent reliability except the 07 Version where it got a average rating because of the V6 version.
    Still the Camry`s reliability is legendary and i say that from experience.
    I was going through the Edmunds consumer reviews and the Accord has much more complaints than the Camry.Not minor gripes-like too dull,boring or mushy,,but --would never buy an Accord,poor reliability -- and not many for Camry.
    Is it tha tmore Honda owners visit the internet?
    But from my experience too,Honda has definitely more problems than the Toyota?
    Any views on This or any evidence to oppose it?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    The Camry always got excellent reliability except the 07 Version where it got a average rating because of the V6 version.

    Take a look the CR April issue. It shows what I reported in my last post: the 2008 Camry I4 is rated only Average in predicted reliability, the 2008 V6 is below average, and for 2009 both the I4 and V6 have just Average predicted reliability. If you consider Average to be "excellent", so be it. But that would make cars like the Accord, Fulan, and Optima "super excellent" I guess? ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I agree with your assessment. The big picture for the Camry is reliability. There will be always be those who have a lemon in any brand, but Accord and Camry have very high retention rates. Camry sells boat loads of cars every year because for the rest of the world Toyota gives the motoring public exactly what they want.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Yes,the Camry is rated average,,I think long term 1 or 2 more years down the line,, the more specific long term reliability patterns will emerge.
    An example-- CR recommended the 04 Nissan Quest when it first came out.If u have access to CR,check out the test on 04 Quest where it says recommended.But long term 2 years down the line,the Quest was one of the worst cars and now CR lists it in the used cars to avoid.
    As for the Camry,I think it`s a minor blip on the radar, and it`ll be back at te top next year on CR.
    I think Camry buyers are mostly 40+ whereas Accord buyers are 30+.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus?

    The internal hardware was jointly developed by GM and Ford, but they use different controllers and different software.

    That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Is it tha tmore Honda owners visit the internet?

    I think there are way more Accord owners that visit the internet than Camry owners. Camry owners, like yourself, are a rare breed here.

    But from my experience too,Honda has definitely more problems than the Toyota?
    Any views on This or any evidence to oppose it?


    The only evidence I have is my own. I bought my first Accord in 91 (92 model), and had the car for 12 years. The only complaint I had about the purchase of that car, was the money I wasted on the extended warranty ($600). If that car had not met, and exceeded my expectations, I certainly would have not bought the 03 Accord. I've owned one Toyota, and while it was reliable (with one exception), it definitely was not enjoyable to drive. The Toyota was traded in for the 03 Accord.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I agree with your assessment. The big picture for the Camry is reliability. There will be always be those who have a lemon in any brand, but Accord and Camry have very high retention rates. Camry sells boat loads of cars every year because for the rest of the world Toyota gives the motoring public exactly what they want.

    Actually, I disagree with the last part. I think the Camry sells because it provides the motoring public with what they NEED. However, WANT is a different thing, and it implies passion, which is something that Toyota has been missing since the 90s. I have never, ever heard anyone say "I want a Camry," and this is growing up and living in Southern California, arguably the Toyota capital of North America.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Thats the key issue here.They say I dont want a Camry but eventually go and buy one.
    It`s easy to say the Camry is boring,,but when the time comes to spend 20k for a car,,then u think about comfort and reliability.
    Nobody likes to spend 20k on a car,however sporty it may be ,,,which is mostly in the repair shop.
    And folks who can afford both these types-- well they are the D3 management-- who get bonuses and obnoxious salaries with people`s money. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    Nobody likes to spend 20k on a car,...

    I agree. Especially when there are very good alternatives to the $20k car that not only cost thousands less, but have better predicted reliability, better blend of ride and handling, more standard safety features, etc.
  • canddmeyercanddmeyer Posts: 384
    A friend of ours has a GS350. We liked the TL better. The GS lacked rear headroom. I could sit up straight in the back seat of the TL, but not the GS350. We thought the GS350 was noisier than the TL. The Nav on the Toyota product was useless, and our friend will confirm that, plus the Lexus costs more. The TL was bigger inside, while the GS350 was cramped. Both rode nice, but I thought my parents 1999 Camry rode better than our friends 2008 Lexus.

    Thanks for your opinion, but our observations are different.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Only a biased person would say - the 99 camry is less noisy than an 08 lexus gs.
    Please get real.Its ok,if u dont like Lexus but absurd statements like these dont help anyone.
    And again nobody would say that the TL is quieter than the lexus.Not even guys who dislike Lexus.
    Please be objective in your criticism and not subjective.
    This is a forum for the pros and cons of midsize cars,,not outrageous statements like yours.thanks.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Please be objective in your criticism and not subjective.

    That's an interesting request, coming from someone who claims that the Camry is better in every way than the Accord, but ignores CR reliability data drawn from thousands of owners.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    I said the Camry is better than the Accord not just based on CR reports but on lots of other things-- comfort,ride,noise,smooth including reliability.
    U are basing your opinion on the CR average 07 camry rating.
    If u go by CR then the Accord has horrible transmission issues which is a huge problem.All 98-04 Accords have a complete black dot in trans.major.
    So, with data ,then, the Accord is a very unreliable car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Both are welcome here, last I checked. It just can't be personal. This forum has gotten shut-down before because of it.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    No,not at all,,nothing personal here.
    Its a great forum to share your views and the pros and cons of each car.That`s what makes these forums so great.
    And buyers can make a very informed guess with the info here.
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