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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    For example, GM lacks a best seller in this class but they sell more midsize sedans than Toyota does.

    What is your source for that tidbit?
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "I'm talking about new design vs. new design. Don't you think a company who has consistently built reliable cars, will be more likely to produce another reliable car. "

    I dont think so. As time goes on cars are built in different places, designed by different people and made with parts from different suppliers. People fail to grasp how similar Toyota and Honda have become to domestic manufacturers. Think about it, how could the Asian transplants have infallible quality if they are designing vehicles in the US with US engineers, building the cars in US plants with Americans and using suppliers (although not to the degree of the Big 3) based in the US that also supply the Big 3. Similar workers, engineers and suppliers yield similar results. I knew someone who was into Hondas who told a long time ago that there was a difference in quality between US made hOndas and those imported. Dont know if that is true but it is conceivable. I never assume that any car from an import manufacturer is guaranteed to be better. When the Fusion came out I'm sure people were saying it would never measure up in quality based on Ford's reputation but they would've been wrong. I have heard of too many issues with imports to believe that they are as reliable as some claim. I also question how others who swear by imports have NEVER come across similar stories from other owners. To me that says that import owners are more forgiving of issues than they would be if the problems existed on a domestic.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes fleets are part of that

    That's an understatement. How about fleet sales are a major part of that.

    Also, I don't know about the "GM sells more midsize sedans than Toyota does" statement. First of all, the Impala is NOT a midsize sedan, it is a full size. Second, I don't have the numbers with me but I believe the combined sales number of the Malibu, Aura, G6 and LaCrosse is still less than Camry, and that's including fleet sales!!
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "What is your source for that tidbit? "

    Add the numbers up. GM sells about 70-75k midsize sedans a month if we count the Impala. Lets not forget they make a lot more midsize models than Toyota does. Chevy alone sells about as many Impalas/Malibus as Toyota sells camry. And lets not forget that Toyota adds Solara sales to the Camry when GM never did the same for Impala and Monte carlo. Toyota may sell more cars if you factor in the corolla, but I'm not sure. The press and domestic car bashers like to focus on best sellers only but all GM cars count in the sales column for GM just like the camry counts for Toyota. If Gm needs 3 cars to battle and outsell camry than so be it. Lots of people are going to make a big deal out of the Malibu if it doesnt outsell the Camry but it CANT because there isnt enough production capacity. Few vehicles have production capacity in excess of 300k units like Accord and Camry. If we look at GM's epsilon cars as a whole they should come close to camry sales next year. I figure the G6 will be good for 140k, Malibu for 200k-250k and Aura for 70k units next year.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Similar workers, engineers and suppliers yield similar results.

    True, but different philosophy and amount of the resources contributed to the product make the difference. You can have the best engineers, workers and suppliers in the world but if the boss has an idea of "I'll just make a so-so car with minimum resource" then you are not going to get the best product.

    In my opinion ultimately it's the philosophy that changes the outcome.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Also, I don't know about the "GM sells more midsize sedans than Toyota does" statement. First of all, the Impala is NOT a midsize sedan, it is a full size. Second, I don't have the numbers with me but I believe the combined sales number of the Malibu, Aura, G6 and LaCrosse is still less than Camry, and that's including fleet sales!! "

    Then exclude the Accord, its a full size sedan. The Impala is a midsize based on pricing. Anyone looking at a Camry or Accord would consider the Impala comparable in space and peformance. The Impala is barely a midsize anyway by EPA standards. as for the sales, they speak for themselves.

    At the end of this year the cars you mentioned should sell about 340k copies. Not quite on the level of camry but not bad considering the Malibu was in the last year of a generation for 10 months of the year. Next year that number should be closer ot 400k.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "True, but different philosophy and amount of the resources contributed to the product make the difference. You can have the best engineers, workers and suppliers in the world but if the boss has an idea of "I'll just make a so-so car with minimum resource" then you are not going to get the best product. "

    Not sure who has that attitude. It wouldnt be Gm in 2007 though. Considering the recent awards GM vehicles are getting I would think its clear they are trying to make the best product.

    As for fleets, they are a part of business. If Toyota makes a police package camry then I'm sure cops will buy it. Fleets must not be all bad since Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are relying on them more than ever. Fleet sales are 9% of Toyota sales and a higher % of Nissan's.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Add the numbers up. GM sells about 70-75k midsize sedans a month if we count the Impala.

    Exactly, you can't count the Impala.

    I figure the G6 will be good for 140k, Malibu for 200k-250k and Aura for 70k units next year.

    How many did those 140k G6 and 250k Malibu went to the fleet? Exactly...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Then exclude the Accord, its a full size sedan.

    The Accord is only full size without the sunroof so technically it is still midsize car.

    The Impala is a midsize based on pricing.

    Nobody is or never will be classifying car size segment based on price. I will agree if you said GM sells more cars in the $20k to $30k range than Toyota but that's not we are discussing here.

    The Impala is barely a midsize anyway by EPA standards.

    The Impala is full size by EPA standard, barely or not. If team A beats team B barely by 1 point would you consider team B won the game as well?

    At the end of this year the cars you mentioned should sell about 340k copies.

    And how many did those 340k went to the fleets?
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Add the numbers up.

    Well, I do believe GM sells more cars (and trucks) in the U.S. than does Toyota. But Camry is No. 1 in mid-size sales, followed closely by Accord. Not sure who is No. 3, Altima maybe? GM, Ford and Chrysler are way down the line when it comes to sales and my original point was that even if Detroit did build a super car in the mid-size segment it would be years before it surpassed Camry and Accord in sales, if ever.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Exactly, you can't count the Impala. "

    Actually I can. Like I said if the Impala doesnt count then you might as well say the Accord doesnt compete with the camry. The impala is priced in the same range as the camry and accord and competes with those cars. If you say its fullsize (which is only by EPA standards because its not that big) than its still the best selling fullsize car in the market and whips the Avalon in sales.

    "How many did those 140k G6 and 250k Malibu went to the fleet? Exactly... "

    how many altima, Sonata and camry sales are fleets? Gm has cut its fleet sales and thats one reason Lacrosse, Grand prix and G6 sales have been down this year. Meanwhile the Asians are adding more fleet sales every year. The notion that fleets by cars no one wants is laughable when you can rent a mazda3, Altima, Azeria, Altima, Camry, etc. Fleets buy whatever is the best deal and in most cases american cars are the best deal. That is changing now since the imports need to keep their production numbers up. What I find funny about the fleet bashers is that its never acknowlegded that fleet sales will happen no matter what. If the Big 3 goes out of business tomorrow Toyota and Nissan will gladly soak up that business. Import companies largely cant compete for fleet sales from a price or equipment perspective and this is one reason why the domestic dominate this market. There are no Camry police cars because Toyota doesnt make a car that would be acceptable for police duty. The impala sells as a cop car for that reason, not because its a car that has no appeal to customers.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    As for fleets, they are a part of business.

    Yeah sure, it's part of the business but it's the part that companies would LOVE to be without. Sure Toyota has higher fleet sales than Nissan and Honda but what about compare to GM, Ford and the new fleet favorite Chrysler?
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Well, I do believe GM sells more cars (and trucks) in the U.S. than does Toyota. But Camry is No. 1 in mid-size sales, followed closely by Accord. Not sure who is No. 3, Altima maybe?"

    Toyota has the best selling nameplate. Gm is the leader in midsize sales. The Impala outsold the Altima in 2006 and will again this year. It even outsold the Accord a few months this year.

    cars like the Fusion or Malibu dont even have the production capacity to exceed the camry. Best seller is an award for ad purposes, it means little. Ford advertises that it has the best selling truck but GM sells more pickups so I dont think GM cares. If GM changed the name of all its midsize cars to Malibu it would instantly have the best selling midsizer. It doesnt matter to me, but apparently it does to others. When I ask people if the most sales makes the F150 the best pickup (and vehicle) in American they seem to get a little ambiguous. If sales are all that matters than the F150 is about twice as good as the Camry and WAY better than the Tundra. The fact of the matter is Toyota doesnt have enough capacity to exceed F150 sales even though the Tundra is a better vehicle.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Actually I can.

    No you can't. The Impala is not part of this discussion and according to EPA it is a fullsize car. I have no problem agreeing with you that with or without fleet sales Impala is the best selling fullsize car but that's not what we are discussing here aren't we?

    how many altima, Sonata and camry sales are fleets? Gm has cut its fleet sales and thats one reason Lacrosse, Grand prix and G6 sales have been down this year.

    I though you would never ask... :P

    Here are the numbers for fleet sales for the first part of 2007, let's see how much GM cut back on its fleet sales this year:

    Chevy Malibu 58.8%
    Chevy Impala 53.9%
    Pontiac G6 36.2%
    Saturn Aura 23.7%
    Buick LaCrosse 29.2%
    Honda Accord 4.9%
    Nissan Altima 16.4%
    Toyota Camry 7.7%

    Source: Fleet Sales - first half 2007

    Even the brand spanking new Aura had about 1/4 of total units going to fleets. GM is definitely cutting back on fleet sales...

    About police cars, I don't know why we are discussing this but the bottom line is the imports don't need that market to generate sales.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The Impala is NOT a midsize car, period.

    Maybe the host can help us out with this...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    As for fleets, they are a part of business. If Toyota makes a police package camry then I'm sure cops will buy it. Fleets must not be all bad since Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are relying on them more than ever. Fleet sales are 9% of Toyota sales and a higher % of Nissan's.

    9%-20% pales in comparison to 53.9% for the Impala. And if fleet sales is fine, why do manufacturers try to reduce it? BTW, that would include GM.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Yeah sure, it's part of the business but it's the part that companies would LOVE to be without. Sure Toyota has higher fleet sales than Nissan and Honda but what about compare to GM, Ford and the new fleet favorite Chrysler? "

    A few things to note. The bad fleets sales are the rentals, not the police cars and corporate cars. The Asians ONLY deal in fleets while Gm's fleet sales includes rentals, government, companies, contractors, etc. IF you compare RENTAL %s only the numbers wont be too far off. GM is at 23% fleet I believe which is low by historical standards. And of course that includes all those cars they sell to the government.

    Mark my words, the Asians will continue to increase the fleet sales year after year. Hyundai is doing it big time to keep Sonatas moving out of the factory. Same with the Mazda6, Kia Optima and others. 10 years ago you couldnt find an Asian midsizer on a rental lot.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "9%-20% pales in comparison to 53.9% for the Impala. And if fleet sales is fine, why do manufacturers try to reduce it? BTW, that would include GM. "

    a) the figures you are quoting are not current- I've seen them quoted many times before. BTW, you should only compare Impala RENTAL sales to altima and camry rental sales. Unless there are Camry police cars I dont know about its not fair to lump all fleet sales together and say Camry and altima are far lower. Of course they are, their vehicles arent eligible for many of the uses that are applicable to Impala.
    b) Gm is trying to reduce rental sales NOT all fleet sales. The imports only have rentals as fleet sales. They dont sell to governments.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I used to think that, several years ago. I used to think that every Toyota and Honda, whether it was a brand-new design or a mature model, would have stellar reliability. And they did. But then things changed, e.g. 1999 Odyssey... 2001 Civic... Sludge on Toyota engines... 2003 Accord... 2007 Camry. All of these had significant problems.

    Since I own one of those 03 Accords (51k miles), I would like to know what these "significant problems" are? Your definition of "significant", and my definition of "minor" must be very similar. I don't think 0$ spent on repairs is considered "significant". Highly exadurated, IMO.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "No you can't. The Impala is not part of this discussion and according to EPA it is a fullsize car. I have no problem agreeing with you that with or without fleet sales Impala is the best selling fullsize car but that's not what we are discussing here aren't we? "

    I will say this, to the EPA its not midsize. To consumers it would be since its barely larger than midsizers in this class. I asked a while back if this means the Accord should be banned from this discussion. I did not see a response. GM sells more midsizers even without the Impala so if you only care about EPA classifications it can be removed even though consumers see it as a competitor to the midsizers in this class. Now that I think about it I believe the sonata is also a fullsize car.

    The % of fleet sales in 2007 are irrelevant if we dont have the previus year's stats. GM overall has reduced fleet sales. It may not be enough, but it is happening.
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