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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • Dealer installed sun-roof is just asking for trouble. Leaks and breakdowns.
    Also the base Malibu has the archaic four speed. GM was too cheap to put the six speed in the base models. :lemon:
  • madpistolmadpistol Posts: 126
    As for their cars, the Altima isn't any better in terms of handling/cornering if it isn't in 3.5SE trim. My wife's DD is a '07 2.5S, and it's mush compared to my Mazda6. At least Mazda (and Honda IIRC) carries the "sport" suspension as standard equipment across the trim levels. Unlike Nissan, where there's a big difference between the 2.5S and 3.5SE.

    While I agree with this statement (mostly), there are a lot of people in this world that want a compromise between sport and comfort. The '08 Accord seems to strike this balance perfectly, while the 2.5S is slightly sportier. If you want a full-on sport suspension (and all the jarring that comes with it), get a Mazda6 or an Altima 3.5SE. Both of these cars have fairly stiff suspensions that act more like sports cars than sedans. Don't get me wrong though. If you put the right tires on a 2.5S, it'll be very entertaining on curvy mountain roads.

    As rough as the roads are around here, I personally couldn't justify that sort of suspension for day-to-day driving, but other people can. It's all about what you like in a car's drive. :)
  • All about free choice. These are the best sedan choices in history (sans Dodge Avenger). Sonata, Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, Mazda6, Altima, 3series, Prius, Insight, Jetta, etc. I would even take a used Charger Patrol car at a good deal. Name it Elwood after the blues brothers. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Unless you need heat or air-conditioning?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Dealer installed sun-roof is just asking for trouble. Leaks and breakdowns.

    I don't know, my Contour had a dealer installed Webestco sunroof (the OEM supplier) that offered additional functionality beyond the OEM installation (it opened with the alarm fob, closed with key off unless I told it to stay open), tilt and slide. 10 years, 150+k, no issues.

    OTOH, the '93 Accord sunroof leaked periodically because the dealer had some special tool to clean out the drains or something. About every 4 years this would happen.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    What I meant was the 08 altima has to be compared to the 08 accord or 07 camry.These 2 are the benchmarks now.Obviously u cant compare the 02 and 07 altimas b`cos definetelt the 07 redesign will be better.But then again the Camcord also have improved over their previous versions significantly,,so they are the benchmarks again..
    The altima`s interior has so much plastic and there are some minor rattles.
    If u want a taut ride-there is the accord.If a comfy ride needed -Camry.
    Actually the compromise for comfy ride with taut drive is the Camry -SE- the sportier version-- the steering is much more taut with more road feel and suspension.
    The altima i feel is underpowered.Plus it is smaller than the other 2 and its resale value is not up there.
    Also the competition is more fierce now with Camord,sonata,optima,malibu and fusion for the 07 altima compared to 02 when its only opponents were Camcord.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Underpowered? The V6 versions are all essentially evenly matched (except that the CVT puts it down much more effectively and efficiently vs. the Accord and Camry automatics), and the Altima's I4 is the fastest 4-cylinder sedan among the three.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    I've driven the Camry SE, and trust me, besides the supposed suspension upgrades, it still doesn't hold a candle to the Mazda6 and the Altima 3.5SE. There's only so much you can do to an appliance without a complete makeover...

    And the Altima underpowered? Compared to what? BMW?

    Not only did Grad get it right saying that the V6 versions are too closely matched, but IMO the 4-cylinder not only has the HP to keep up, but the fuel economy is outstanding compared to the rest as well. The Altima is anything BUT underpowered.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I'm not a sunroof guy anyway, but if I were, the idea of some guy taking a saws-all to the roof of my new car would frighten me. I just see a big difference between a car being designed and built with a sunroof integrated into the roof and just having a random hole cut in the finished roof of a car.

    I'd feel the same way about slapping an after-market turbo on the engine vs. buying a car that comes from the factory with a turbo.
  • madpistolmadpistol Posts: 126
    If the Altima is considered underpowered, where does that put the Camry? 158hp 2.4L vs. 175 HP 2.5L. The V6's are comparable across the board; IMO, all of the V6's in this category, minus the Optima's little 2.7L, are very competitive with each other. However, on the 4-cyl models, the Altima outpaces the Accord (Altima has a lot more torque) and absolutely trounces the Camry, along with plenty of other models in this segment. The only car that I think can keep pace is the '09 Mazda6's 2.5L 4-cyl. If you think the CVT is a drawback to the Altima, you're sadly mistaking, because it is one of, if not the fastest N/A 4-cyl in the segment.

    And don't bring plastic and rattles into the argument either. I've heard numerous complaints from current Camry owners about lots of plastic and rattles on the interior. I've also driven an '08 Camry SE, and as far as drive goes, it just can't compare to the Altima, Accord, Malibu, etc. You're talking about putting a sport suspension on what is generally referred to as a "sofa on wheels." It just doesn't work.

    Also, if you've got some time to kill, go onto the Accord boards and look at all of the threads about VCM shifting (V6) and headlight flickering (4-cyl). It's hard to believe that the "Benchmark" for 2008/09 has problems too.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    For what its worth...

    I've never been in a car that didn't have its lights dim slightly when the A/C kicked on. People who have complained loudly about the issue even posted videos on youtube to "show us the problem." Just like lights do in a home when you turn on the A/C, or the hair dryer.

    I watched them, and they look like every car I've ever driven, from Acura to Volkswagen.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,667
    If the Altima is considered underpowered, where does that put the Camry? 158hp 2.4L vs. 175 HP 2.5L.

    The 158 is for 2009s. You can get a 2010 Camry right now - they have a new 2.5L I4 that is 169hp for the base, LE and XLE, or 179 hp for the SE.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Considering they JUST hit dealer lots, I'm willing to bet nobody that's been talking here has driven the 2010 Camry yet.

    I've yet to see one on the road; I've been looking for them.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    No man made products can have zero problems.For example,,say,,Benchmarks mean 2-3 problems per 100 cars.Camcord would have that.Altima would have much more.
    And infact the altima is supposed to be the best product in their line up.The quest,titan and armada have very poor reliability ratings.
    So what I am saying is that Nissan`s product quality is definitely slipping.CR and all other reviews and surveys prove it. It may be the one of the top rated sedans in CR-- CR specifically states the top rated doesn`t have to be the most reliable.I think the reason is top rated is that it has ESC standard on all versions.
    The altima for sure has a lot of plastic interiors and the fit and finish is not upto the camcord or even sonata,by any standard.The fact is the 02 altima was competitive in its time,,but the 07 version falls short of the competition.
    Nissan has been very slow to fix known problems in their models in the following years.
    The 2010 camry is better powered than the previous versions.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No man made products can have zero problems.For example,,say,,Benchmarks mean 2-3 problems per 100 cars.Camcord would have that.Altima would have much more.

    Based on?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    Well, not based on CR anyway. They have the Altima with better reliability than the Camry now (2008 models):

    Altima I4: Average
    Camry I4: Average
    Altima V6: Above Average
    Camry V6: Below Average

    For overall predicted reliability, CR rates both the Altima and Camry as Average.
  • madpistolmadpistol Posts: 126
    No man made products can have zero problems.For example,,say,,Benchmarks mean 2-3 problems per 100 cars.Camcord would have that.Altima would have much more.

    Link? If not, the Altima's reliability is average at worst, and above average at best. The Accord has just as many problems if not more. One look at the Accord section of the forums proves this.

    And infact the altima is supposed to be the best product in their line up.The quest,titan and armada have very poor reliability ratings.

    The Altima is not Nissan's flagship sedan. That's the Maxima. Every product lineup has its faults. I'm not disputing that.

    So what I am saying is that Nissan`s product quality is definitely slipping.CR and all other reviews and surveys prove it. It may be the one of the top rated sedans in CR-- CR specifically states the top rated doesn`t have to be the most reliable.I think the reason is top rated is that it has ESC standard on all versions.

    CR has put the Altima as its top midsize sedan. Enough with that. Your argument does not prove anything in reference to reliability, so just drop it. As for your comment about ESC, you're completely incorrect. In fact, ESC is reserved for V6 models only. Perhaps you're thinking about the Accord or Sonata...

    The altima for sure has a lot of plastic interiors and the fit and finish is not upto the camcord or even sonata,by any standard.The fact is the 02 altima was competitive in its time,,but the 07 version falls short of the competition.

    The Altima has less hard plastic than other competing sedans. Calling the Altima out on plastic while cars like the Avenger run around is unfair. Also, read Edmunds review of the Camry. Apparently, they don't think the Camry's interior is up to snuf, but they like the Altima's interior. Here are some quotes taken directly from Edmunds' own reviews of each car.

    Altima: Inside, the 2009 Nissan Altima offers a quiet and attractive cabin made with top-notch materials.

    Camry: Sadly, build and materials quality aren't up to the high standard set by previous-generation Camrys. Specifically, we've noticed that some plastics are mediocre in quality and the panel fitments aren't uniformly precise. Many competitors are now better.

    Read the reviews, and you'll see what I mean.

    Nissan has been very slow to fix known problems in their models in the following years.

    Proof... show us proof of this. They are no slower than any other car manufacturer on the market.

    The 2010 camry is better powered than the previous versions.

    It's about time. Nearly all current midsize sedans have more than 160HP on their 4-cyl engines. As usual, Toyota is the last one to the party. Even Honda managed to squeeze 190HP out of their 2.4L 4-cyl.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Yes,ESC is standard only on V6 altimas.
    Reliability wise as per CR- 07,08 Altima is average; 07 camry-above ave,08-ave;
    Accord- 07 ,08 above average.
    But for 09 Camry gets excellent- all red dots.There is a seperate table in CR for 09 Camry. I think 08 camry was just a minor blip on the radar and they fixed it.
    Camry has been excellent for so many years than its competitors, and 1 average year,, its ripped apart!! 09 versions will show excellent reliability as per CR.
    Nissan Quest,Titan,armada had all problems since 04.Infact 04-06 quest,armada and titan are to be avoided, listed as CR bad bets. 4 years on,still the same problems --- squeaks,,rattles,brakes,electrical problems,fuel system problems.Nissan lost its reputation recently mainly due to these 3 models. The altima is the main torch bearer for Nissan at the moment ,with Infiniti down the tank too.
    But its good that all car makers are improving-- except Dodge::dodgy,horrible cars :sick: ;
    competition is better for people.Less chance of making a wrong decision.
  • madpistolmadpistol Posts: 126
    Yes,ESC is standard only on V6 altimas.

    Wow... you really need to research this a little more. ESC is an option on V6 Altima models. Unfortunately, something has to be optional. It's not standard.

    The Camry's 4-cyl (2.4L 158HP) is considered above average for reliability, while the 3.5L V6 was considered below average in 2007 and 2008. The 6-speed Automatic has had lots of problems in the last several years. Therefore, it wasn't a minor blip on the radar. Actually, it was a major problem for a while.

    The only major problem that Nissan had with the '07 Altima was that cell phones would disable the intelligent key sometimes, rendering the car useless. Nissan addressed and fixed this problem very quickly. I've had my cell phone right beside my i-key numerous times in the last year, and I've had no problems at all.

    Infiniti is not "down the tank" as you put it. Actually, quite the contrary. Their newest offerings are incredibly innovative, especially in the G37 sedan and coupe. Also, these cars are the so much fun to drive! The VQ37 is a wonderful piece of automotive technology.

    As with other luxury car makers, their reliability is average to above average, and Infiniti's build quality is top notch. No problems here.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    The 2010 Camry has ESC standard on all trims.So,I expect the camry to be the top rated sedan in CR next year.
    Nissan,as I said has no problems with its sedans- its mostly its vans,suv`s and trucks which affect its credibility.
    As far as infiniti goes,it really is a niche brand,,for people who dont like either Lexus or bmw/mercedes,,, infiniti 115000 vs lexus 271000 in 2008,,a third choice basically .
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    I am sure there was a time when GM/Ford thought Toyota/Honda would never take the number 1/2 slots in sedan sales. I am sure even the public thought so also. Well flash to today and look who has been number 1/2 for the last 5-8 years. To say GM/Ford will never regain even into the top 3 spots I feel is ignorant and shortsighted. GM and Ford have answered the challenge by Honda/Toyota (finally) with two very good sedans. Perception is what they now need to overcome. Fusions reliability/quality is now firmly up to par with the Camry/Accord. In some instances some mags say the Fusion is actually more reliable than the Camry!. I see either the Malibu/Fulan or both moving into the top 4 in the next 5 years. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I really doubt the 2010 Camry will be CR's top "family sedan" next year. It would have to unseat the Accord, which is CR's top family sedan this year. And Accord already has ESC standard. Camry was not dinged by CR for it this year because ESC is widely available as an option. They only ding a car for it--Altima is a good example--if ESC is very hard to find or not available. Since ESC isn't available on the I4 Altimas and an option on the V6 Altimas, that cost Altima CR's "top family sedan" designation (according to what the April CR issue said anyway), even though the V6 Altima is the top ranked over-$25k family sedan based on points (+1 over Accord EX-L), but 3 points behind the Accord LX-P MT in the below-$25k family sedan grouping. Since the 2009 Camry is only 3rd in the over-$25k grouping and way down in 7th place in the under-$25k class, it would have to make a huge jump for 2010 to be CR's top choice in family sedans. I don't see the small tweaks for 2010 doing that. Other cars above the Camry have improved for 2009-10 also, e.g. Optima (2009 model not yet tested by CR) and 2010 Prius.

    Also, your data on CR reliability for Camry and Altima is incorrect per the latest CR issue (April). So where are you getting your data, particularly the details reliability history for the 2009 Camry? That is not published in the April CR issue.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    The 2009 data for the Camry is online in the CR subscription.Not sure if it is present in the print version.If u have online access to CR , u can check reliability for 2009 Camry- in all criteria ,it got red dots and the predicted new car reliability also got a red dot.
    Again,I am not sure of the print edition.
    And previously I had said ESC was standard on Altimas- my mistake-- yes,it is standard on accords and from 2010 on Camrys.It is only optional on V6 Altimas and it gets a rap for that.
    Also the fusion/milan,malibu have good reliability ratings- I would need atleast four-five years of good reliability.But the Fusion/Malibu I think are on the right track.
    The problem is,its not enough if they are competitive-- They have to be class leaders ,world beaters and game changers for perception to change-- 2 decades of poor cars cant be rectified by 2-3 years of good cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    The problem is,its not enough if they are competitive-- They have to be class leaders ,world beaters and game changers for perception to change-- 2 decades of poor cars cant be rectified by 2-3 years of good cars.

    For people who are programmed to head straight to their Toyota dealer to buy another Camry, or to the Honda dealer to buy another Accord, without seriously considering other options, I agree. Except it appears in some cases at least there are some new "class leaders", e.g. the new Fulan hybrid is being widely praised as superior to the Camry and Altima hybrids. And the Fulan has taken the reliability mantle formerly held by Camry and Accord. With a few more years of this kind of success, maybe more Toyota and Honda fans will start to take notice.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    I don't think anyone can state that the seemingly high number of complaints you might see on an Edmunds forum about a particular car proves anything. That's like saying because there are more 2009 Sonata reviews (on the right hand side of this page) than 2009 Accord reviews that the Sonata must be outselling the Accord two to one.

    I've noticed that some(if not all) brands of cars have zealots both pro and con and there is sometimes psychological reasons for some of these high praises and complaints which have nothing to do with subjectivity.

    Hundreds of thousands of these cars are sold each year and because several people complain(or praise) a lot on Edmunds doesn't prove anything. Maybe an indicator or something to consider.....but not proof.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    Just saw a picture gallery and stats on the new '10 Legacy over on autoblog.com. Hate to say this but in the pictures it sure reminds me of the Sebring, front, front angle and rear. Maybe it will be different in real life but I'm not fond of the look so far. Width increased 3" will mean enough room for us "average" folk.

    Now I see it on Edmunds also.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    What the heck is a Legacy? What brand.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    Subaru, of course.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I really don't see any resemblance to the Sebring, except the Chrysler-like badge in the grille. Maybe Subaru figures Chrysler won't be needing that badge much longer.

    I see a LOT of the current Accord from the A-pillar back--in fact, if you take off the taillamp extensions on the trunk lid (which Honda will likely add to the Accord for 2011, as per their history with Accord taillamps on and off trunk lids), I think it's nearly a copy of the Accord. (While the Accord's rear was a close facsimile of BMW. But I digress.) The front looks like Subaru is trying to compete with Nissan for the "who can put the largest headlamps on a sedan" award. I think the front would be more attractive with less chrome, and a smaller badge (especially given the similarity to Chrysler's badge). I prefer the looks of the dash on the current car, but it appears the interior has high-quality materials at least--if that can be determined from photos!

    Glad to read of the 4" increase in rear leg room--that will make the Legacy a lot more popular with buyers who need to carry large kids and adults in the back seat.
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