Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Midsize Sedans 2.0

13963973994014021065

Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    You know, we've already had this discussion. :sick: But if you insist, I consider a recall of over 1 million cars due to a transmission problem that could cause transmission failure (and an accident) to be significant.

    When talking about reliability, we can't just talk about the experience of one person, with one car.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Honda Accord 4.9%
    Nissan Altima 16.4%
    Toyota Camry 7.7% "

    I checked out that table and I see why you didnt show Sonata, Optima, 6 or Galant up there. Honda is out of the discussion because we all know that Honda really doesnt do rentals. I saw something recently about the % increase or decrease in fleet sales in 2007 and the increases for Nissan and Toyota were very large while all of the Big 3 had declines. I think GM was down about 5% or so.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "The Impala is NOT a midsize car, period.

    Maybe the host can help us out with this... "

    I believe the cutoff is 100 cu ft of interior space. The Impala has over 100 cu ft of room but not by a signifcant margin. The Taurus, 300, Avalon, etc, are far larger inside. As I said, the Sonata and Accord are "large" by EPA standards but most people would consider them midsize cars. I know I do.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Okay, just to make you happy...

    Impala commercial fleet sales 15.5%
    Camry commercial fleet sales 2.9%

    Impala government fleet sales 8.4%
    Camry government fleet sales 0.1%

    Impala rental fleet sales 30%
    Camry rental fleet sales 4.7%

    All numbers from first half 2007
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I know I do.

    Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.

    When you are EPA then we'll talk.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? :sick: ) to be major players in our discussion anyway.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.

    When you are EPA then we'll talk. "

    I thought this topic included the Accord and Sonata? Maybe I am mistaken.

    Accord is fullsize without sunroof, that isnt news. My point is can the full size accord not be compared to Altima, Malibu, etc. because of the EPA rating? You are telling me the Impala isnt a midsize car in pricing and consumer perception because of the EPA classification even though it barely qualifies. I guess that applies to Sonata and Accord (w/o sunroof) as well. I mean, who would ever compare a huge full size accord to a smallish midsize camry? Two totally different sizes of cars. According to what you're saying a 99 cu ft car wouldnt be compared to a 102 cu ft car because of the EPA designations of each.

    It inconsequential in the end because without the Impala GM comes close to Toyota in midsize sales. I figure about 570k midsize cars for 2007 which should be close to camry/ES350 sales. The Prius is a midsize so that could throw it back in Toyota's favor though. If we say sedans between $20k-$30k GM sells more.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? ) to be major players in our discussion anyway. "

    in a world where only the top sellers count the Malibu, Aura, Fusion, etc. are not major players either. You might as well not talk about any cars outside of Camry and Accord. The Sonata has sales on the same magnitude of Fusion and Malibu and far outsells Aura. I evaluate cars based on price, design, etc. not fleet sales and who has the highest overall sales. If we care about that stuff its pointless to talk about anything not named Camry or accord.

    Whenever people bring up fleets as some sort of insult I note that in Europe audi and BMW sell to fleets and people in the US dont seem to care. Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    a) If my numbers aren't current, provide the latest.
    b) It doesn't matter. GM is trying hard to improve retail sales, and that is the bottom line. Who wouldn't?

    Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.

    Who said it is? But, one shouldn't sit and talk about a leaking roof in neighbor's house while trying to empty one's own bucket.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.

    It's very simple, as long as the manufacture isn't losing money while selling cars to the fleet then it's all good, a sale is a sale anyway. However, once it start losing money and part of the reason is fleet sales then they'll find out very quickly that the world is a lot different when the kumbaya singing stops.
  • Then exclude the Accord, its a full size sedan.

    The Accord is only full size without the sunroof so technically it is still midsize car.

    No, its a midsize car with a sunroof, its a full size car without a sunroof. If you are really worried, drop EX sales. That's not fair to call it both ways like that though.

    The Impala is barely a midsize anyway by EPA standards.

    The Impala is full size by EPA standard, barely or not. If team A beats team B barely by 1 point would you consider team B won the game as well?

    Thats fair, it should go by EPA size class not by price segment. The Ford Crown Vic is a large car by any standard and costs less than a Civic.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Who said it is? But, one shouldn't sit and talk about a leaking roof in neighbor's house while trying to empty one's own bucket. "

    Not sure what you mean by that. Its a well known fact that GM sells more to fleets than the Big 3 Asians. Not news to me or you. There are many reasons for that but anti domestic people have concluded that the SOLE reason is that fleet sales are for cars that stink and have no retail appeal. Its much more complicated than that. I've yet to have anyone explain to me why Avis or Enterprise would buy a more expensive car from Toyota if a comparable one is available from the General. Companies cant be bothered with worryiing about image, they buy whatever presents the best deal.

    "a) If my numbers aren't current, provide the latest. "

    All those stats come from the same site and apparently they only release data every 6 months. I assume they are accurate but we have no way of knowing. for example, I am seeing tons of Prius used in fleets but that doesnt seem to be reflected on those charts. These new car sharing organizations only buy imports so I want to see if that starts to show up in future reports on fleet sales. In my area they buy Prius', Scions, Imprezas, Fits, etc. They arent retial but I have a feeling they arent counted as fleet sales.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "It's very simple, as long as the manufacture isn't losing money while selling cars to the fleet then it's all good, a sale is a sale anyway. However, once it start losing money and part of the reason is fleet sales then they'll find out very quickly that the world is a lot different when the kumbaya singing stops."

    a) I really dont know if MB and BMW lose money on fleet sales. I assume you do though since you are saying that only domestic makers fall in this category
    b) Techically speaking, GM loses money on everything it makes as of 2006. We really cant separate the "good" sales from the "bad" ones since they dont give you that level of detail in a financial report. We can assume that rental agency sales are like even less profitbale than GM's average car sale but that has more to do with GM's overall cost structure than the fleet sale. In other words, Toyota probably makes more profit on a fleet sale than GM makes on a retail sale because of its much lower overhead in the US.
    c) you have tailored the definition to fit my question, but there was a time when people would emphatically say that fleet sales exist for cars no one wants and the manufacturers are producing anyway. If that is (or was) accepted than Toyota, Hyundai and Nissan are making cars no one wants and forcing them down Enterprise's throat. You cant have it both ways. The Asians are more concerned about maintaining marketshare than maximizing profit on each sale. That is the same thing the Big 3 believed until recently. In 10 years you will see rental penetration rates at the import automakers that would've been unimaginable 10 years back. Even Toyota at 10% would've been hard to envision 10 years ago.
  • a) I really dont know if MB and BMW lose money on fleet sales. I assume you do though since you are saying that only domestic makers fall in this category

    In non-North American countries, MBZs are taxis, I would think that means fleet sales. I also see BMW 316s as rentals.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the bottom line is the imports don't need that market to generate sales
    and louis as you well know, vehicles supplied to rental cos. and/or muncipalities/government and even to corporations are NOT SOLD in any case. Just think that you were NYC and needed to buy 10000 sedans for use by selected city employees. You have a requirement that several different brands of cars would meet - LOW BIDDER wins (by law because it's public funds) and what do you think your price might be when you tell GM, or anybody that participates in this sham, that you are about to write a check for $150 million (10000 cars @ 15k apiece)? No - Impalas/Malibus, almost the entire Chrysler line, and a good portion of what FoMoCo produces are all given away in this manner, destroying; of course, the market value of the product and destroying the profit margins of those that participate heavily. For this reason the whole concept of those Detroit brands having REAL SALES that even approach those of those 'Japanese' brands is a joke - and all you have to do is look at each cos. bottom line to see why.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Toyota, Hyundai and Nissan are making cars no one wants and forcing them down Enterprise's throat
    not likely at all - because Enterprise, if they did get a decent volume price on those Camrys also knows that they will fetch premium dollars after being abused for a year or so. Selling fleet cars (particularily rental ones) are big money makers for the Enterprises of the world - and what do you think they sell most easily (and probably at a higher price) a lot full of Fusions/G6s/Malibus/Sonatas or a lot full of Camcordimas. Besides which, the rental customer given a choice between renting one or the other for about the same price is going to select the Malibu? As I said not likely.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Thats fair, it should go by EPA size class

    Really?

    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA defintion), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6

    Out go the Large Cars, like:
    Sonata
    Accord
    and yes, the (smaller than Accord, per EPA) Impala

    We must also then add EPA midsizes, such as:
    Dodge Caliber
    Hyundai Elantra
    Nissan Senta
    Nissan Versa
    Pontiac Grand Prix

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byEPAclass.htm

    And to those who claim "accord is only large without a sunroof"...well too bad! That seems to be the way EPA classifies the cars...check the link, there is no Accord listed in EPA midsize class. Besides, what is the interior volume of the (smaller than Accord) Impala with a sunroof?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA definition), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6


    Add Mazda6 to that list. Considered a "compact" car by the EPA. Or they used to be, anyways.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Posts: 140
    The spirit of this discussion is talking about cars that are considered by people in the market for a midsize sedan. I think all of the cars that have been mentioned: Accord, G6, Mazda6, etc. would be cross-shopped by such people, and therefore fair game for the forum.
  • Really?

    Okay then, out go the compacts (by EPA defintion), such as:
    Subaru Legacy
    Pontiac G6

    Out go the Large Cars, like:
    Sonata
    Accord
    and yes, the (smaller than Accord, per EPA) Impala


    You know, I am actually okay with that. If it doesn't meet minimum internal dimensions, it should get the boot. If it exceeds those dimensions it should get booted as well.
Sign In or Register to comment.