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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Some of you that have been around have seen reliability data posted in the last sedan comparison room. Shall we go back and start posting it again?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The back seat room just doesn't compare well against competitors.

    What competitors? Please explain.

    No car is good enough to make up for a bad dealer experience.

    Dealer experience means little to me, because I don't go there (only to buy maintenance parts).

    I wish people would be more nuanced in their critiques.

    So what nuances would you like to comment on? Maybe you should take your own advise here.

    Further, the statistical variations in "quality" or "reliability" are often far smaller than the perceptions.

    Read what you wrote here. I don't think you meant what you said. :confuse:
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Almost every other vehicle I've had has been able to get me to school or work or both and back, and been an entertaining autocross or HPDE companion.

    No midsize car is designed for that. Not even a 6.


    actually the 6 has done quite well in the World Challenge Touring Car Championship over the last few years. granted it's a souped up version with many aftermarket parts, but it does show how good of chassis the 6 has. And keep in mind, the 6 is the only midsize sedan in this group that has been chosen as Consumer's Digest Most Sporty Cars of 2007. I know several people who autocross their 6 who do quite well in their class. But even if they rank poorly, the 6 is fun to drive, and on top of that an autocross course will always make you a better driver since you will better understand the limits of your car.

    Perhaps this why the 6, despite it's being one of the oldest designs in this segment, continues to be rated highly by writers who find driving enjoyable/ fun and more than just a way to get from A to B. As Edmunds wrote in their summary of why they chose the Mazda 6 as the Editor's most desired sedan under $25k for 2007, "...the 6 offers comfort, capability and class for a surprisingly affordable price. Fun to drive, with smooth power delivery from the automatic, the 6 features a slick-shifting manual transmission if you so choose. Design is simple and tasteful inside and out."

    If you are a person who likes to occasionally take turns faster than most others or like to find gaps in traffic to get ahead of it, you will enjoy the Mazda 6's great handling characteristics.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Scape2, I know you like your Fusion, and I am happy for you. Give the Camry a rest, please. You don't have to buy one, if you don't want to.

    zzzzoom6, the Mazda 6 sounds like your kind of car. I am 44 years old, and don't drive my car like it's a toy. "Fun" is not what I'm looking for. Just an enjoyable drive. I'm kind of the middle ground here (too old for the 6, and too young for a Buick). The Accord is perfectly in the middle, just how I like it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No, I posted some earlier, thanks.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Wait a minute. This is supposed to be a comparison room right? Someone posted MPG figures for the V6 Camry, touting that if the V6 offers great MPG than why not have all this HP right? I am questioning the MPG figures touted by Toyota, so are others around the net. This site just proves why people are questioning the High MPG numbers that the manufacturer says the car is supposed to get. Why give it a rest? It it because its a Camry it should not be questioned? :confuse:
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    Actually, I think I'd be quite happy with the Accord (much happier, I think, with the next gen accord). In fact it was second or third on my list of cars I would have bought. But it was the the flexibility of a hatchback the sealed the deal on the 6. I've had 2 Accords in the past and liked them a lot, especially the coupe where I learned how handy a hatchback can be while still looking good. I especially like Honda's center console and manual tranny - my favorites in this class. Really, I could make a very strong case for the Accord. But when it came down to signing the dotted line, I had a stronger case for the Mazda based on my wants and needs.

    btw - from a suspension/ ride viewpoint, I don't think the Accord is in the middle of this group. I'd rate it in the top 3 for firmest suspension in this group (granted none of these cars have a really "firm" suspension...they're family cars after all; but some are firmer than others).
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    For fun, go to MSN reliability data and compare a 2003 Focus to a 2003 Civic. What a surprise! But if you asked anyone, they would say the Focus is unrelaible and the Civic is reliable.. Why? Check other makes/models as well, what a surprise.. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why give it a rest? It it because its a Camry it should not be questioned?

    No, but it would be a bit different if we hadn't all gone down this road before in the last room, that got shut down for its redundant arguing.

    Why do you constantly imply that the Camry and Accord are on some pillar of greatness, while you tout yourself as a martyr buying a "lowly Ford Fusion?"

    I've already said it once today, but I'll say it again... All Honda and Toyota owners do not think that Ford owners bought a sub-par vehicle, just one that didn't meet their needs as well, which, last I checked, is what you did. You wanted a fun car, with a V6, great styling, and a very reasonable price. The Fusion certainly delivers on that. I wanted a fun car, with great economy, and the best interior for my budget. For me, the Accord delivers.

    Do I cry "look at me, i took a chance on poor old Honda" though? Nah, I'm too busy driving! I also don't sarcastically berate other car manufacturers, like you constantly do to Honda, and especially Toyota. Please give it a rest before this forum gets out of control AGAIN and gets shut down AGAIN.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Or go to Consumer Reports and compare a CURRENT Pilot to a CURRENT Explorer. You'll find the Explorer couldn't be recommended because of poor reliability, while the Pilot is recommended.

    This means nothing in this board however, just like you bringing up a 5 year old economy car that isn't even made anymore. I ask, why?

    The Fusion and Accord are both highly rated, which are the only Fords and Hondas that should be in this discussion.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Doesn't the EPA do the mileage estimates? Not Toyota. Frankly, I trust my own mileage, rather than EPA's estimates (actual mileage may vary). I find EPA estimates on the Accord kind of low, on the V6 anyway.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I think in the 90s, Honda had the best FWD manual transmission in the business. I think the current Accord is highly competitive although perhaps not class-leading. A short throw shift kit like Subaru offers would help the feel a lot.
    Also in the olden days of yore (the mid 90s :P ) it was pretty easy to pick up aftermarket suspension components for Hondas that firmed them up quite a bit (shocks, sway bar links, and bushings) could button things down while not dramatically affecting ride quality, slaming the thing to the ground, or most importantly, knocking me out of stock classes.
    Toyota has TRD, Subaru has STI, even Chrysler has DirectConnection, but Honda lacks an in-house aftermarket performance supplier. These places allow one to add performance without affecting warranty, etc.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Honda lacks an in-house aftermarket performance supplier.

    While not being a full line, they do offer the "A-Spec" upgrades. Just thought I'd mention that.

    I think the current Accord is highly competitive although perhaps not class-leading.

    For the current Accord to be near the top of the pack five years after being introduced (and with all other cars except the Mazda 6 being redesigned since then) I'd say Honda has performed an amazing feat. I must say, some of use feel it is still at the top of the pack (those that bought one obviously :) as well as the latest tests of the Accord, placing it ahead of the Optima, Camry, Altima, Sebring, and Aura.

    This is the most recent post in the Accord Prices paid forum:

    Earlier this month I purchased a 2007 Honda Accord SEDAN (not the coupe) EX-L V-6 Automatic Transmission with Navigation for $25,061.76 (NOT INCLUDING TAX AND TAGS).

    That is a $30,000 car for $25,000. If you like the Accord in its current iteration, now is the time to get a steal. This price is $5,000 below sticker, and fairly typical on the forum, opposed to some people who imply that "Honda dealers don't deal." It just isn't true, they do!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I think the current Accord is highly competitive although perhaps not class-leading.

    Sorry, I should clarify. I meant with regard to its manual transmission.

    As far as A-spec, its a start, but TRD offers a supercharger for a Camry for crying out loud.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Ford simply neglected the passenger car market in favor of trucks and SUV's...

    I think you have reversed cause and effect. The consumer did not want to buy cars, they wanted to buy SUVs and trucks. Ford produced vehicles to meet that demand. The F-150 is still the biggest selling vehicle in the US and the Siverado is second.

    What happened to new cars that Ford did come out with? In 1995 the Contour (a smallish midsize car, imo) was introduced and it never did sell well in the US, a new version of it is still going as the Mondeo elsewhere.

    Getting back to current mid-size cars, in the recnet past I've read some complaints here on edmunds and elsewhere along the lines of "why doesn't Ford bring the new Mondeo to the US?" Well, my understanding is that car starts at about $27K in Europe, does anyone really think this would sell here at anything close to that price? I don't...they could maybe try to sell it, in very limited numbers, as a Lincoln, replacing the Fusion sibling.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    from a suspension/ ride viewpoint, I don't think the Accord is in the middle of this group. I'd rate it in the top 3 for firmest suspension in this group

    Just curious who you would put as the third one in that group? In addition to the 6, I liked the handling/ride of the Fusion, but did not drive Altima or Accord enough to really make a good comparison.

    I did not drive the Accord enough to really know if I would like it, I suspect I would. The only negative I noticed was the steering was too light. I did not give it serious consideration, because I really don't like the appearance and then on top of that the price would have been much higher than my Mazda6. It's a wonderful thing when the car you like the best also has one of the lowest selling prices in the group :-).
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    this would be from that Ford commissioned study of vehicle reliabilities? :D
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    jeffyscott- you have to admit, that in the SUV euphoria of the later 90s none of the 'Detroit 3' did anything to develop anything in the car end of things. Even the Fusion/6 while they are decent designs are plagued by antiquated and non-competitive drivetrains. The GM entrants? - historically and still largely plagued by what version of a pushrod V6 you really don't want. And the Sebring? - enough said.
  • micro99micro99 Posts: 51
    Your efforts to encorage some civility in this forum and preclude another shutdown are laudable and it would be nice if they were taken to heart. I`m not optimistic however given the strongly held views and biases that are so prevalent and the emotions that seem to inevitably get out of conrol. It would be so nice to actually comment on and compare cars by some metric ( build quality; material quality;conveniece features;comfort features; ergonomics ; handling: drivability; acceleration; exterior style; or whatever!! But I fear this is a pipe dream- SIGH .
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Micro, take heart, I think with the exception of a few, most of us are discussing metrics. I think we are struggling to define and quantify those metrics, with the majority of posters providing good insight on what benchmarks they use to define those metrics.
    With the exception of a few "Toyota good/Toyota Bad/Ford Good/Ford Bad" type posts, I think we are on a good path. I know have a lot of insight in to what drives Elroy's, Graduates, and ZZZMazda6's purchase decisions and how they evaluate their vehicles.
    I think its important to realize that different folks expect different things from vehicles, so what is good for one might not be good for another.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    you have to admit, that in the SUV euphoria of the later 90s none of the 'Detroit 3' did anything to develop anything in the car end of things.

    I think that is an exxageration, at least in terms of Ford (reference the Contour). And the point is this is a result of consumer preferences, Ford and GM are not the cause of the SUV craze...the american public (and CAFE) are.

    As to "antiquated and non-competitive drivetrains", I do not agree with that with regard to Fusion/Mazda6. I don't see being behind in the excessive horsepower bragging rights contest as a real world performance issue...it's a marketing issue.

    I think you have a valid point on the GM pushrod V6, but that should not be classified with the current Ford V6. The 2.3L 4 cyl first came out in 2000, that is not antiquated. I don't know enough about whatever Sebring is using to comment.

    Anyway, I think Ford/Mazda has updated these engines over time and they do put 5 and 6 speed automatics in the Fusion/6. I don't know about the V6 versions, but in the 4 cylinder midsizes Sonata, Sebring, the GM entrants, and Subaru Legacy all are still using a 4 speed auto, as was Altima prior to the CVT.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Micro, take heart, I think with the exception of a few, most of us are discussing metrics.

    Yes and now if we can also convince those who are discussing manufacturers and the history of SUVs/trucks, we'd be completely back on track. ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I don't know enough about whatever Sebring is using to comment.

    I think the Sebring uses the the 2.4 "world engine" that was made by DCX, Hyundai and Mitsubishi for Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance (GEMA). Its got VVT and all the buzzwords. It comes as a 1.8,2.0, and 2.4. Production began in 2005.

    Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance
  • micro99micro99 Posts: 51
    I think its important to realize that different folks expect different things from vehicles, so what is good for one might not be good for another

    A very nicely put observation ! Its unfortunate that much of the discussion reverts to a sometimes irrational defense of a prior purchasing decision and escalates into a pissing contest !
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    and escalates into a pissing contest !

    I'm all for pissing. eh hmm I mean...eh...I'm gonna go for now :D
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    some of you are trying to be helpful, but the best way to help is to post in the ways you are wishing that others would post and just ignore those who are not. If someone is way out there, feel free to drop me an email to get me here sooner than I might be otherwise.

    Continuing the conversation about what others should be doing isn't really moving us in the right direction.

    Thanks for your help with this.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    The 6 cyl Sonata has had a 5 speed automatic (with "shiftronic") since the 2006 model year.

    I, too, don't know about the other models you mentioned.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    So for the Sonata at least the trans on the V6 is off the "antiquated and non-competitive" list, but the 4 speed trans on the 4 cylinder remains. And according to what was posted above the Sebring 4 cylinder engine is also off the list, but the associated 4 speed trans still remains. :)
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    I'd put the 6, accord, and altima as having the least amount of body roll when turning and having firmer suspensions than others. the sonata, legacy and fusion are pretty close in suspension firmness to those that I've mentioned, though body roll in the sonata seemed much higher than the others. strange since I thought the suspension was pretty firm but well dampened unless you hit something like a highway expansion joint.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    And according to what was posted above the Sebring 4 cylinder engine is also off the list, but the associated 4 speed trans still remains.

    If I were a betting man, I would say the Sebring is likely to go CVT with the smaller motors and keep the 6 speed auto for the V6.
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