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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Mazda6 is midsize per EPA, always has been AFAIK.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    So, is the Accord now a full-size car or a mid-size one, according to the EPA? Without a moon roof it is full-size and with a moon roof it is mid-size, is that how it goes? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

    I do find it interesting that the newer Civics have grown to the point where they are about the same size as what the Accords used to be. Didn't the Civics used to be a sub compact once upon a time?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Sorry, but I think it is silly to go by the EPA definition. Nobody shops for cars using their bright line definitions, even EPA recognizes that.

    Who is going to say "I'll consider the malibu because I want a midsize car, but I won't even look at the Pontiac G6 because it is a compact"? The only difference between these two, for EPA classification purposes, is the G6 has a 14 cf trunk, while the malibu has a 16 cf, both have 95 cf passenger volume.

    Let me correct something regarding the Accord/Impala comparison...the Accord has more passenge volume, the Impala has more total volume due to a much bigger trunk.

    To me the Impala is too big for this class. But the ranting about it not belonging based on some arbitrary EPA definition is ridiculous. I think it is too big mostly due to its length of over 200 inches...13.6 inches longer than my mazda6 and about the length of our minivan.

    Since the size of the 6 was just right for me, I was not about to look at anything as big as the Impala. That said, the Impala is only about 6 inches longer than Accord, so why would an Accord shopper not potentially consider the similar sized Impala? I think I considered cars that were 6 inches longer or shorter than the Mazda6.

    It'd be nice to know what Edmunds criteria is...might a case where you can not define "midsize", you just know what it is when you see it :) .
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Per EPA Accord Sedan is only in the large class.

    BTW, the Accord Coupe is a compact by EPA definition.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    EPA classifies cars based on passenger volume plus trunk volume. Accord sedan (LX/LX-P) has a 106 cu ft interior and 14 cu ft trunk. With 120 cu ft, it manages to sneak into full size category (110-119 cu ft is "midsize").

    However, EPA doesn't take features into consideration. And the feature in this case would be moonroof, which can reduce interior volume by 2-3 cu ft. In case of Accord EX/EXL/EXV6/EXLV6 sedan, moon roof is standard, and total volume is down to 117 cu ft. This will apply to any car. In case of Accord, more are sold with moonroof than without (almost 75% of total Accord sales are supposed to be for EX and above trims).

    Civic is still very much a compact. I believe (DX/LX models, which are the only ones without moonroof) have 104-105 cu ft total volume, right in the middle of the compact size by EPA definition (100-109 cu ft is considered compact). Other trims (EX, EXL, Si and Hybrid) are "barely" compact.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    The Impala, Accord, Legacy, G6, etc. all belong in this discussion. It's just nutty to exclude them because of an arbitrary EPA classification.

    As far as car sales, GM does sell a lot more mid-size cars than either Honda and Toyota. What differentiates the Accord and Camry from domestic and other Asian mid-size cars is that they're regarded as the "premium" cars of the segment. The big discussion is whether it's deserved or not.

    For the record, the Taurus has never been considered the best car in this segment. True, it was a revolutionary car for Ford and a sales champ for a number of years. Oh, a sales champ only if you include the fleet sales.

    Though the current Passat is a disappointment as an improvement or the last generation, I still think it's the best car followed by the Accord in this segment. Once all the buzz wears off on the new Malibu it's not going to be this great car some think it is.

    I can almost guarantee Motor Trend is going to say the next generation Malibu is finally the car that beats the Accord forgetting (or hoping we forget what they said before) they say that every time GM introduces a new Malibu. Don't forget the Malibu two generations ago was their MT car of the year winner.

    Of course a niche car like the Audi S5 isn't going to be a MT car of the year winner because it wouldn't get the advertising exposure MT would want.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    Someone on this topic or the Aura vs Accord topic mentioned that the Aura got a higher rating than the Accord for the consumer reviews on the left panel and used that as an argument in favor of the Aura. I now see that is not the case anymore. It looks like the Altima is now the big winner.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    It looks like the Altima is now the big winner.

    It's 9.5 rating is downright amazing considering the large number of reviews, 65. Obviously Altima owners are happy owners. My wife and I love our 2007 SEL AWD Ford Fusion but would still not award it a 9.5 on a 10 scale.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I don't give much credence to those reviews. In fact, with a little time on hand I could write a few of those reviews without owning a car and make it look better or worse. Some of those reviews are downright questionable to me (especially if you rank them in order from lowest to highest). I can only say to them... "what were you thinking, dude? Or, would that be too much to ask?"
  • The Impala, Accord, Legacy, G6, etc. all belong in this discussion. It's just nutty to exclude them because of an arbitrary EPA classification.

    So are we just using price? Because then we should add in the Crown Vic and a few others.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    No, we're using size. If you want to get caught up in EPA classifications be my guest.
  • Potential buyers of the Toyota 3.5L V6 (found in the Sienna, Avalon and Camry) need be aware of the high repair costs that are associated with this engine.

    On page 9 of the factory service manual, it states the instructions for water pump removal.

    Replacing the water pump on the Toyota 3.5L V6 require engine and transaxle removal!

    For those of us who plan to keep this vehicle for as long as possible (200k+), it's very likely that we'll have to replace the water pump at least once. With this design, replacing the water pump is likely to be very, very expensive, possibly at least twice the amount it costs to replace the timing belt and water pump on a Honda 3.5L V6.

    This is something that potential buyers of the Toyota 3.5L V6 need to keep in mind.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    This is something that potential buyers of the Toyota 3.5L V6 need to keep in mind.

    Just one more reason to be happy that my wife and I bought a 2007 3.0-liter V6 Ford Fusion (although I don't honestly know what's involved to replace its water pump).
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    These water pumps are probably designed to last a very long time, and my guess is they will. These are not the same water pumps that grandpa use to change regularly on his 70's chevy V8 engine.
  • If that engine has the same setup as the one in the Mazda 6, it requires manifold removal in order to access the rear plugs. Of course, the Toyota 3.5L V6 requires manifold removal as well.
  • From my experience, most pumps last about ten years or 100-150k miles. If someone keeps their vehicle for more than 200k+ miles, there's a good chance that they'll have to replace theirs at least once.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If that engine has the same setup as the one in the Mazda 6, it requires manifold removal in order to access the rear plugs.

    How big a deal is that? Just curious, since I have I4 in my Mazda6.

    One of my reasons for prefering the I4 is I figured with a V6 jammed in there, various things would be more expensive to repair, just due to the difficulty in getting to them. Had that with a V6 minivan, which unlike our previous I4 minivan, required engine removal to replace gaskets. I plan to stay away from transverse mounted V6 engines.
  • The upper intake manifold has to come out, so I think it's a two to three hour job depending on your skill level and your familiarity with the vehicle, especially if it's your first time. One guy describes his experience in this thread:

    Thread
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    So...I assume that means maybe $250-300 to change plugs, for those of us who pay others to do such things.
  • No, we're using size. If you want to get caught up in EPA classifications be my guest.

    So we are using size, but not EPA size...is there a measure of interior volume that it needs to have to be in this discussion? A total vehicle length? Width? Tire size? Engine size/displacement/cylinders?

    Or are we going by what feels about midsized? because that seems kind of fuzzy. If the Accord is a "full size" then the Avalon and the Taurus should probably be in too.
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