Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Midsize Sedans 2.0

1407408410412413742

Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    it's not so much the actual mileage, obviously the explorer is not going to be close to the average midsize sedan or something even smaller.
    my comment is about a vehicle being able to match the epa estimate vs exceeding it by 20%.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    But you were likely not driving in the way the EPA highway test is done. Most people will compare their mpg for cruising on the freeway with the EPA highway numbe, but EPA test is mostly at lower speeds than most drive on the freeway and with more changes in speed.

    MPG for an SUV is probably going drop faster with higher speeds than the typical car, so it would not be surprising if in a freeway cruise at, say, 75 MPH a sedan would still beat the EPA highway number but an SUV would not.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    MPG for an SUV is probably going drop faster with higher speeds than the typical car, so it would not be surprising if in a freeway cruise at, say, 75 MPH a sedan would still beat the EPA highway number but an SUV would not.

    That's exactly what I meant......guess mine was lost in translation. But I did get a nice physics lesson.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    One other thing to consider, Resale value!!! You will make up the difference between a lower class I4 model vs the Hybrid, sine the Hybrid holds its value far more than the non Hybrid. I flipped my Prius and made money

    I have a friend that is a Toyota dealer that has 7 used Prius' on his lot that he owns for more then he can retail them for because the value on used Prius' have dropped tremendously especially with Toyota offering rebates on the 09's.

    I took in a 2006 Toyota Prius with nav and 46K on it for $12,500 and only got a high bid of $11,750 at the auction. WTF!!! Edmunds seems to think this car is worth $19K on the retail side. What a load of garbage. One can buy a new Honda Insight for penny's more. Heck, even a left over Prius (there are many out there)

    I have come to the conclusion that the resale value was highly overrated. With gas well below $3.00/gal, the dire "need" for a hybrid is over stated

    While Hybrids excel in fuel economy and burning clean, they are a depreciating asset just like every other car. For people to get overly greedy and think they can actually turn a profit on one after putting 50K on it is just mind boggling to me.

    Will a Hybrid version be worth more then their gas only 4 cyl stable mates? Absolutely. However, you pay more to begin with. Why buy a Ford Fusion Hybrid for $30K, when you can get a 2.5L Fusion for just over $20K.

    It all comes down to me not falling for the "hybrid hype". It's a matter of personal opinion. I have nothing against Hybrids. They are wonderful for the environment and for many in the general population, but, not for me. :shades:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I flipped my Prius and made money

    I know 3 people who did that Miatas and one with a Porsche Boxter. I don't think you would be able to do that today with a Prius.

    It all comes down to me not falling for the "hybrid hype". It's a matter of personal opinion. I have nothing against Hybrids. They are wonderful for the environment and for many in the general population, but, not for me.

    This is what it comes down to: non-financial/economic reasons for owning a hybrid. My mom wants a hybrid. She has a 12 year old mini-van with 60k - so about 5k/yr. How long do you think the break-even will be on any hybrid for her?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    non-financial/economic reasons for owning a hybrid.

    Which is perfectly fine. The problem is when people try to justify owning a hybrid for purely financial reasons and then use fuzzy math or inaccurate data to back it up.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Which is perfectly fine. The problem is when people try to justify owning a hybrid for purely financial reasons and then use fuzzy math or inaccurate data to back it up.

    Here is the thing that gets me, trying to compare the Hybrid version to a Lessor model. For the Prius, there is NO comparison, none whatsoever. There is no other car in its class like it. The Insight is in the compact car class, so you cant even compare it to that one. Right now the Prius isn't moving, wait, gas will go back up to $4 a gallon, then they will once again sell at a premium.

    I bought the Camry Hybrid because I drive a LOT, 500 miles a week is the norm, that adds up to a LOT of gas used, so for me the less gas I can use to get to and from work everyday the better, and until the Fusion Hybrid came out, there was no other car on the market with the interior room and power that gets the MPG of the TCH. As it sits now, I could use about 3 inches more back seat width to make it the perfect family sedan. Crown Vic interior size with Camry Hybrid economy would be perfect, but alas not available. The only reason I went with the Camry over any other car, because they have the Hybrid, and 38 MPG daily driving, cant be beat. My daily drive is not really highway, though I travel 55 MPH, they are mostly county roads, then small city traffic, 35-45 MPH, 43 miles one way, toss in my lunch break, 100 miles a day. I have 2 small children in car seats and a teenager that occasionally rides with us too. The Prius, although a halfway decent car, could not fit my entire family when needed, so it went away, not practical.

    So there you have it, I didn't buy mine for financial means, I bought it for its practicality. Had the Fusion been available in a Hybrid when I was looking, it more than likely would be the car instead. The days of the SUV and mini van are slowly coming to an end as gas goes up again, car manufactures need to take that into consideration when building cars, need to make them just a little bigger inside without compromising fuel efficiency. Same day I hope to see that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    How long do you think the break-even will be on any hybrid for her?

    That's a big "depends" of course: on what she would buy instead of a Prius, on the price of gas in the future, and how much of her driving is "in town". But here is one scenario. She can plug in her own data and figure it other ways:

    * Car driven almost all in-town.
    * She is willing to learn how to drive the Prius efficiently (not "hypermiler" stuff, but simple tactics such as a light throttle to keep the ICE off as much as possible, and coasting to take advantage of the regenerative braking).
    * Estimate in-town FE for the minivan about 17 mpg, Prius about 50 mpg (17 is about what my wife gets in town on a 3.3L Chrysler van, which has pretty typical fuel economy for minivans); i.e. estimate the Prius will get about 3 X the fuel economy of the minivan.
    * Assume your mom would buy another minivan if she did not buy a Prius.

    We know a 2010 Prius with a good dollop of equipment including all the key safety features will list for about $23k. A new minivan comparably equipped can be had for about $5k less, if your mom is willing to go with a brand like Chrysler or Hyundai/Kia. A Toyota or Honda would cost more (more on that later).

    So assuming 5k miles a year, that would take about 300 gallons of gas in the minivan and 100 gallons in the Prius. At $4.00 a gallon (does anyone NOT think we'll be back up there in the next year or two?), that's $800 in gas a year.

    So if your mom can find a minivan she likes for $18k, e.g. a Caravan SE or Sedona LX, it would take a bit over six years for payback--not including other differences such as insurance, maintenance, repairs, and depreciation (and THAT is a biggie here).

    But if your mom wanted to stick with Toyota, a Sienna would not cost much less than the Prius. So the payback would come much sooner--again ignoring other factors.

    Consider however that when looking at ALL factors, including depreciation, the financial benefit for your mom could be pretty substantial with the Prius--considering how long she keeps a car! In 12 years, she'd have saved about $10,000 in gas vs. a minivan (assuming an average of $4/gallon over that 12 years).

    It does get complicated. But this kind of analysis is of interest to me because I might be in this situation in about 3 years--looking to replace my wife's minivan, driven about 10k/year mostly in town, with a smaller, long-term vehicle. I think the value proposition of a Prius will be pretty good, unless gas goes to $1 a gallon and stays there. Fat chance of that I think.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Your comparison makes no sense. Why are the two choices a new minvan and a prius? Two logical comparisons would be a similar size vehicle, such as a new Corolla vs. the Prius or keeping the old minivan vs. a new Prius.

    If she saves $5000 on the purchase price by buying a Corolla and earns an average of 3% per year by putting that money in CDs, that would generate $150 per year in addition to the $5000 itself. Even with your assumption that gas is going back to $4 per gallon (BTW, if you are so sure of that you should stop wasting your time here and find a way to profit from your certainty about the future of gas prices), the hybrid is probably still not going to make any financial sense in this situation.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I think it makes sense. I did say it was only ONE scenario, and that the mom needs to plug in her own data. The way I figured it, someone owns a 12-year-old minivan. So time for a new vehicle. A reasonable option would be a different minivan, since that is what she owns now. Another option is clearly the Prius, or else the original question about payback time would not have been asked. (Also, I made that choice myself in late 2003, so it happens in the real world).

    I could say the comparison between the Corolla and Prius "makes no sense". You are comparing a compact sedan with a mid-sized hatchback. And nothing was said about "mom" wanting to trade the minivan for a compact sedan.

    Anyway, the main point is, I talked about ONE scenario that would make a Prius look good in the financial sense. I also said that it DEPENDS on things like gas price and the vehicle that is the alternative to the Prius.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to buy some oil futures. :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Here is the thing that gets me, trying to compare the Hybrid version to a Lessor model. For the Prius, there is NO comparison, none whatsoever.

    I would say a Civic or a Corolla. One of which is infinitely more engaging to drive while returning stellar highway fuel economy. This whole game to make the Prius a midsized vehicle from the EPAs point of view is great, but in real life, my 18 month old, my wife, and myself couldn't fit 2 carry-on bags and a stroller in my MIL's Prius for a 3 day trip. When we tried to add her grandma and the walker, there was no way. The rental Fusion (and for that matter, my MIL's old '96 Accord) had no problems, and for those trips we had to bring sleeping bags.

    The days of the SUV and mini van are slowly coming to an end as gas goes up again, car manufactures need to take that into consideration when building cars, need to make them just a little bigger inside without compromising fuel efficiency.

    I don't know about that...I think the people that need an SUV will buy one (to pull a boat or a trailer, or drive a lot of kids around) and people that need a minivan will buy one (families, people who need the utility, etc).

    I think the people who bought an SUV as a status symbol will move on to something else (perhaps a Prius) and the order will be restored. I think another issue with "minivans" is they aren't "mini" anymore. They are bigger than the short wheelbase full size vans of the past. Vans like the Mazda5 (which still hasn't really caught on) or a C-Max are more what I think of as minivans.

    If its one person commuting by themselves every day and thats about it, I think a Prius is fine, if they like that kind of thing.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    Punch the numbers. You will pay at least $4,000 - $5,000 more for a Hybrid vehicle upfront. A good 4cyl sedan will get you at least 30-35 MPG Hwy. $4,000 dollars will buy you a whole lot of gas over the lifetime of a vehicle. Not to mention the battery life on these Hybrids... noone really knows how long they will last. Cost of replacement can run you upwards of $3,000!! ouch!!
    On another note however. Environmental cost is another factor for some. A hybrid will use far less oil/fuel and spew out far less emmissions over its lifetime. As more and more of these Hybrids become available to consumers and as they become more mass produced. Prices will fall. Economics 101....
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Yeah, she won't be replacing the minivan (90 something Sienna) with another minivan. That was just for the sake of comparison. There is actually nothing wrong with it, so she is likely to not replace it at all right now...my folks like to be able to put their bikes in the back and can't seem to grasp the concept of a trailer hitch mounted bike rack.

    If/when she does replace the van, it will very likely be a midsize sedan. I don't care what the EPA says, I have enough personal experience to say the Prius isn't midsize to me. The other issue to contend with is she has yet to have a favorable interaction with a Prius, so in reality, thats not in the running. I don't like the car either so that isn't helping, but I don't like the car she has now either, but its not my car. I will strongly object to anything I think totally sucks, but who am I to decide what fits her needs?

    Gas has been predicted to be at sub-$3 for the next year (as stated in April) so I am not worried about that right this second, and that will put off payback further.

    Right now she is kind of keen on the FuLans, but still undecided about the FFH vs. the 4 cyl SEL. She said the Camry is too "little old lady" for her (that cracked me up...before she got the van she said she was considering a full size Buick!), and she doesn't like the way the new Accord looks. She likes my Accord but wants a slushbox so that easy out is blocked. And she won't go for a European car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Not to mention the battery life on these Hybrids... noone really knows how long they will last. Cost of replacement can run you upwards of $3,000!! ouch!!

    California has like a 10 year 100k warranty on the battery packs. That and of all the Priuii I know out west, including the 1st gens, no one needed a new battery pack.

    On another note however. Environmental cost is another factor for some. A hybrid will use far less oil/fuel and spew out far less emissions over its lifetime.

    Follow the carbon footprint of the Prius being made and you will see things balance out more. And EOL is still an issue.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Have your or your mom seen and driven the 2010 Prius yet? If not, you might want to before passing judgment on it. It's supposed to be roomier and drive better also.

    But if she wants a mid-sized sedan, there's many good ones to choose from. A key thing is how much of her driving is short trips around town. In that kind of scenario, a car that can drive on electric power a lot (e.g. FFH or Prius) could be a big advantage.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    This is an edmunds.com discussion forum.
    Edmunds says the Prius is a compact.
    :P ;)
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    And EOL is still an issue.

    What's EOL stand for?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    In length, yes. In interior room, it's a mid-sized car. Even more so for the 2010 MY.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I will point out again that for those who believe that EPA interior volume measurement is the ultimate arbitor of vehicle size class, that the following are some of the cars they call compacts:

    Pontiac G6
    Honda Accord Coupe
    VW Passat CC
    Chrysler Sebring Convertible
    Subaru Legacy

    Midsize, according to EPA, include:
    Nissan Versa and Sentra
    Hyundai Elantra

    Large cars, per EPA include:
    Honda Accord Sedan
    Hyundai Sonata

    So in your world...
    The Malibu is midsize, the G6 is not.
    Neither the the Accord Coupe, nor the Sedan are midsize.
    Hyundai makes a midsize, but it is not the Sonata.
    Nissan makes three midsize cars.
    Subaru makes no midsize cars.

    ...and of course most important of all, the Prius is a midsize car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    For the record, and for nit-pickiness' sake, the majority of Accord sedans sold are midsize, since only the LX and LX-P do not come with a moonroof.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Follow the carbon footprint of the Prius being made and you will see things balance out more

    With many of today's 4 cyl engines being PZEV vehicles that emit "partial zero emissions" (mine being one), I feel pretty good that I am doing my part for the environment considering I also keep $$ in my pocket by not buying a hybrid. That $$ I can spend and also help the economy. Looks like I can kill two birds with one stone!

    Funny you used the term "carbon footprint". Senator Nancy Pelosi is the biggest advocate of Americans reducing their "carbon footprint". She also rejected the FREE small private jet she is allowed to use to travel back and forth from Cali to DC and insisted she "needed" a Boeing 767 to use twice a week to travel. This 767 uses $3.5M in fuel a year. What on God's green Earth is SHE doing about her carbon footprint?? I think she has the biggest of all footprints!! (sorry for the political direction)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    In interior room, it's a mid-sized car

    Does EPA reference interior "volume" or interior "room" as you state? IMO the two terms are not the same. A lot of normally unused space can be part of a larger volume(like the huge space above the Prius dashboard) while not equating to driver/passenger room.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Since the Prius (even the smaller 2009 model) has more usable rear-seat legroom than many so-called "mid-sized" cars, that is much more important to me than how much air is over the dashboard, or overhead (which is how some cars gain a big volume number), or over the rear package shelf, or whereever it is.

    Sure, I can buy a car that is a foot or more longer than a Prius, and then I benefit by having what is officially per Edmunds.com a 'mid-sized" car. That car may have less room for people and cargo than the Prius (refer to list posted above). But hey, I get all that extra front/rear overhang, so the car is harder to park. I also get a trunk vs. a more versatile hatch. Yep, lots of benefit to me to get one of those Official Edmunds.com Mid-Sized Sedans. :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Subaru makes no midsize cars.

    Hey, I guess Edmunds.com agrees with you. I don't see any Subarus here! Nor the G6, Passat CC, or Sebring (convertible or otherwise).

    :D
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    or over the rear package shelf, or whereever it is.

    Where else would I put my little stuffed doggy with the turn signal eyes? ;)

    All that air(interior volume) above the dash of the Prius was just what I was talking about. Empty, unusable space that the EPA includes in their volume stats. If rear seat legroom is the one criteria that floats your boat that's great. I am in my car probably 95% of the time by myself and personally consider the front seat hip/shoulder/leg/head dimensions to be the most important numbers for comfort. I also like a long wheelbase for ride comfort.

    We all look for different things as important to us. I tend to like a little more metal around me so I tend to lean towards the more traditional midsize cars Even though I know that smaller vehicles can be made pretty safe.....I just feel a little better in a larger car. But that's just me and I can appreciate the desire of someone to want as small as package as possible to satisfy their wants of ease of parking, maneuvering etc.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    the point i was trying to make is that some vehicle's actual mileage varies quite a bit form the EPA estimates, but others don't. my explorer will not get much better than the EPA highway, no matter what the circumstances.
    my mother's mid size malibu pretty much matches the 33 highway rating.
    so far, i have not been able to match the 27 mpg highway estimate on the 2 long trips I have takenin my 07 fusion awd, but they weren't the best of circumstances.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    The way they determine the size of a car, is interior room + trunk space. The Camry has total x amount of space, and meets a certain level to be judged mid size, I dont have the numbers, nor the time currently to pull them up, but will later when I have time. The Prius because of the cargo room behind the rear seat puts the interior room into the mid size class. Interior room/volume is cubic feet, measured by head room, shoulder room, hip room, and leg room plus cargo space. They don't measure the area above the dash, nor the area behind the rear seats( except hatchbacks). Take away the cargo room, and the Prius does fall into the compact class equal to the Civic and Corolla, though a little more room than both. The prius is a hatchback, the rest are 4 door sedans, makes a big difference when classing the cars. The way I still look at it is the Prius is in a class by itself. The Prius does have more rear leg room than most other cars in in all classes, but lacks front leg room. If they put a telescopic steering wheel, then leg room is resolved. That was one of my biggest beefs. I had to stretch my arms out to be comfortable in the legs, but made my arms tired, so I had to put the seat back nearly all the way forward, which was not as comfortable as I liked, made long drives longer as I had to stop often to stretch out my back. With that and the lack of hip room in the back, needed 3" to be perfect, I decided to get rid of it, otherwise it was an OK car.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Thanks, that is another example of the silliness of relying on EPA to define the term "mid-size car". If having or not having a sunroof affects the classification it clearly is not something to be relied on for this purpose.

    Nonsensical things like that, corporate twins like the G6 and Malibu falling in different size classes, and the other things I posted demonstrate not which cars are mid-size and which are not, but does demonstrate that one would be foolish to think that the EPA's definition is all that matters.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Thanks for providing some detail on the EPA's way of measuring interior volume. If factual I was wrong about the "over dash" space being included. It's nice to see they are using some common sense in their measurements but then again it's obvious how the Prius was put into the midsize class by them.....the space behind the back seats!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    No one here has even suggested that we take the EPA's definition as the only determinant of what constitutes a "mid-sized" car. Interior room is only one aspect of "size". As is exterior size. It seems some (like Edmunds.com) use exterior size exclusively in determining car classes--hence they put cars like the Legacy into the mid-sized class and cars like the Prius into the compact class. Others like the EPA focus on interior volume. There's no one right way to do it. As long as it's clear what the classification scheme is and it's applied consistently, one way is as valid as any other. Use whatever scheme works for you. If it makes you feel good to think of the Prius as a compact and the Versa as a subcompact, for example, great. Others will respectfully disagree.
Sign In or Register to comment.