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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Did you read the links I posted earlier? Hyundai's Theta engine, used in the Sonata and Optima, is partly based on but not the same as the GEMA engine used by DCX et. al.

    Yeah I think I am confused because the GEMA sites say it was jointly developed, and on here it sounds like Hyundai made it and everyone is buying it from them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,621
    You are not the first one to be confused by marketing hype vs. reality. ;) Hyundai didn't make it; there is common technology, designed by Hyundai, which all the GEMA partners can use, and add their own tweaks to. An interesting fact from the article posted earlier is that the Hyundai Theta engine plant isn't even part of GEMA, but the Theta engine does use block and intake technology from the GEMA project.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    What is the intent of this, if not to imply that the cheaper car actually costs more?
    there is no intent or even any implication - simply that any car that is generally sold at big discounts will, in fact, have a lesser resale value down the road. That is not good for the buyer only in that it reduces how much he/she might recover for the vehicle at trade-in time. It has nothing to do with Fusions/6s/Sonatas or anything in particular, just a simple statement saying that cheaper up front generally equals cheaper later. It is no secret that Honda and Toyota are hard to deal with especially if you are expecting 'Detroit' style discounts, but it is largely the reason why those cars tend to have high resale values - they cost more because they don't negotiate much. The guy that really gets screwed is that guy that goes out and buys a car when it first comes out, pays something closer to sticker, only to see the mfgr. rebate or finance at 0% in some sort of EOY clearance sale thereby making that car thousands less than what he paid.
    Resale value should be a primary issue for any car buyer under the proviso that he/she is not likely to keep a car more than about 3 or 5 years. Resale value starts becomings a non-issue once that car accumulated a bunch of miles and more age than that. And yes there are a number of examples where a cheaper car at purchase can and does
    really cost more - all depending on those kinds of things.
    My point thru this whole thread is that folks all the time point to a car that let's say costs them $3300.00 less new than Brand X or Brand Y, and then think they have actually saved all that money - to which I say 'well, yes you did, and no, you didn't.' And you are absolutely right, higher resale values will generally not offset the higher initial price (unless you bought a hybrid) and for whatever that real difference ends up being than that is really what it costs you to drive that Honda instead of something else - plus, of course, the time value of the extra money you had to borrow.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,406
    When comparing costs also take into account insurance and fuel.

    I comared a Mazda 6 to an Accord. The Accord was more expensive, but it saves $10 per month in gas and $10 per month for insurance.

    I bought the Accord, but if there was a 6 wagon with the 2.3 liter 4 I would have bought that. Love wagons.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "The guy that really gets screwed is that guy that goes out and buys a car when it first comes out, pays something closer to sticker, only to see the mfgr. rebate or finance at 0% in some sort of EOY clearance sale thereby making that car thousands less than what he paid."

    That is one of the things that steered me from the Fusion to the Accord. When I saw that I could get an Accord for under invoice, I was pretty confident that was the rock-bottom price; it was as good as I would be able to get on an Accord. The new Accords will be out in a few months, the 07s will be gone, and we likely will not see such pricing on Accords again until the end of the next generations life cycle. There is very little chance that in a few years my resale value will be less because Honda will be selling them much cheaper.

    The Fusion had a larger discount, but there was no gaurantee that the deal I was seeing would not have been eclipsed by some larger rebates, or 0% financing, plus a free dell computer, and iPod, or who knows what else they'll come up with to sell the things, and like captain said it'll drive the resale down faster.

    That happened to me when I bought my last Ford, but I didn't even pay anywhere near sticker! I thought I had a screamin' deal on my hands... paid invoice, less rebates, and got zero percent. The next year, the rebates doubled, zero percent financing was back, they had lowered the MSRP AND the invoice, and Ford had made standard some things which I had paid extra for. Guess what happened to my resale value?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Resale value should be a primary issue for any car buyer under the proviso that he/she is not likely to keep a car more than about 3 or 5 years.

    That is where you lose me. Honestly, I am trying to understand why you think resale value is so all important.

    If the net cost is less for the cheaper car or even if it is about the same, why buy something you don't really want, just because the resale value is higher? For example, if after considering everything, excluding price and resale value, one likes the Fusion better than the Accord, why buy the Accord?
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Resale value is unknown. There are three distinct possibilities:

    Scenario one: The Fusion continues to sell well for the next 5+ years, without having increased rebates or fleet sales. Also, the LONG TERM reliability proves to be on par with Honda (or Honda reliability falters). In this case, the Fusion will resale favorably compared to the Accord, and since it was less costly to purchase, will prove to be the better value. In the end, it really will cost more to drive a Honda, and the "Japanese Myth" theory is confirmed.

    Scenario two: The Fusion continues to sell fairly well for the next 5+ years, with minimal rebates and fleet sales. Long term reliability is not too far behind Honda. The difference in resale vales between the two cars will be roughly equal to the difference in their purchase prices when new, taking the time value of money into effect, making the resale issue a wash. No car is the better value than the other.

    Scenario three: (JUST ANOTHER SCENARIO) The Fusion doesn't continue to sell as well through the next 5+ years; maybe Ford doesn't update it enough, maybe the competition makes great leaps and bounds. In response to lower sales Ford increases rebates, and/or sells to fleets. OR, the LONG TERM reliability isn't as good as Honda. The steep discounts on the future new Fusions, the older Fusions having reliability issues as they age, and used Fusions being dumped on the market at low prices, or any combination of those, come together to make a used Fusion worth considerably less than a similiar Honda. In that theoretical scenario, the resale difference between a Fusion and a Honda would be more than the difference in purchase price, making the Honda a better value. Like my last Ford, the costs of owning the Ford would be much greater than the costs of owning a competitor.

    Again, no one knows about future resale around or after 3-5 years from now.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    no one knows about future resale around or after 3-5 years from now
    absolutely true - but what we do have is about 15 or 20 years of established history whether that be Ford's history or Honda's. Resale values as used in those 'cost of ownership' studies are only estimates, even those residual values that are used to calculate lease costs are 'estimates' on the lessors part. Tomorrow we might have the greatest en masse sequence of engine failures ever known to mankind, with every Honda 4 banger blowing head gaskets simultaneuously. ;) At that point, those particular cars will certainly have resale value problems, wouldn't they? And every unfortunate Honda owner that happened to invest 20k or so of their hard earned money would experience a helluva financial loss, because now this car that they thought they could sell used for let's say 10k is now only worth half of that. Kind of reminds me of GMs dubious flirtation with diesels back in the first energy (gas price) crisis. Those engines darn near did all blow up simultaneously, and just like magic those resale values went into the dumper.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    why buy something you don't really want
    and all truths are self evident - you should never buy anything that you don't really want.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Kind of reminds me of GMs dubious flirtation with diesels back in the first energy (gas price) crisis. Those engines darn near did all blow up simultaneously, and just like magic those resale values went into the dumper.

    The point being it was a crummy diesel, not that diesels are crummy. Mercedes and VW diesels have exceptionally high resale values, even still.

    As Honda and Nissan roll out their diesel mid-sized sedans, we will see who follows.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you're making this comment to someone who really believes that the diesel/biodiesel will supplant the gasoline engine within the next 5-10 years - and of course, anything that is obscenely economical and durable will have great resale values. That small block V8 diesel I was talking about, was a little worse than merely 'crummy; however.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Unless money means nothing to you, it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years. However in my case, I keep a car at least 10 years, sometimes much longer. Thus, resale value's importance is less of an important factor in the purchase decision. My three last new car purchases were kept 22 years, 13 years, and 11 years respectively.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Why didn't you include the Sonata? It's sales are down 31% from last year at this time. See a trend? Also, Fusion sales to fleets are pretty low according to Ford and Hyundai just made some news about selling in high volumes to fleets IIRC.

    I just didn't feel like looking them up. perhaps its (probably) just me buying into an old sterotype, but i don't consider hyundai in the same leauge.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    If you read the latest sales news from Ford, a quick search will take you to several of them, they are reporting that fleet sales are down 5% for either the year or the month of April, I can't remember which it is.

    Maybe you forgot Ford removed Taurus fleet completely, so let's think about this logically. Ford operated 100% of Taurus to fleet this time last year, and fleet sales YOY are only down by 5% even with the removal of Taurus fleet, you do the math. For a good part of 06, Taurus fleet led in Ford car sales monthly, ran normally from 15-20K units/month.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Resale value is unknown. There are three distinct possibilities:

    so true. One thing nobody has mentioned is the condition and mileage of the car. If you buy any car, put 45k miles a year on it, and trade it in after 3 years with 135k miles on it, you're going to seriously hurt the resale value. I don't car if its a honda, nissan, toyota, or bmw. You also have to consider the condition of the car. personally, if it knew I was going to be putting a lot of miles on a car, I'd buy a cheap as I could.

    But to me, the whole argument is moot. Your going to pay more for an asian car. Your going to pay more to buy it, pay more to maintain it, and pay more to fix it when it needs fixed. And if the dollar does't strenghen against the yen, your either going to pay even more, or the asian car companies will continue to see their profits decline.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Unless money means nothing to you, it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years. However in my case, I keep a car at least 10 years, sometimes much longer. Thus, resale value's importance is less of an important factor in the purchase decision. My three last new car purchases were kept 22 years, 13 years, and 11 years respectively.

    I think resale value is still important 10 or more years down the road.

    In 1992 the Taurus was the top rated car. I happened to buy a 92 Accord. After 12 years, and 140k miles, I decided to sell it and buy a new Accord. I sold the car in less than one hour for $1000 more than the KBB value ($5,000). Do you think I would have gotten close to that much for a 92 Taurus? I don't think so. I also think an 07 Accord will still be worth considerably more in ten years, than an 07 Fusion will be.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    if you found somebody to pay 5000 (or 6000 if you're saying kbb was 5k) for a 12 year old car, consider yourself lucky. you found a moron who would have overpaid for anything.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "it is a good premise to strongly consider resale value of a car, if, and only if, you plan to keep the car equal to or less than 3 to 5 years"

    The key word is plan. Things happen. Say you buy a new car without considering resale value because you plan to drive it until the wheels fall off, but in the third year you accidentally total it. All of a sudden, resale value becomes very important. Say your cars value as determined by the insurance company is $8,200 while a competeting car in the same shape would have brought $11,400. It becomes an important factor again.

    Congratulations on keeping your cars for that long. You are a much wealthier person because of your restraint.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    if you found somebody to pay 5000 (or 6000 if you're saying kbb was 5k) for a 12 year old car, consider yourself lucky.

    The KBB on the car was actually $3,800. I sold it for $5,000.

    you found a moron who would have overpaid for anything.

    No, he would not have paid that much for "anything". He knew exactly what he was looking for. He wanted a dependable car for his daughter to drive to college in. He got exactly that.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    paying 6000 for a 12yr old car with 150,000 miles on it is just stupid. at least when talking about a mid size family sedan. 6000 will buy you something 1/2 as old with half the miles on it.

    just the idea of paying kbb, let alone 1 grand over it, would make me question anybodies intelligence. paying 1k over KBB is about the same as going to a dealership and offering to pay more than msrp. If i were you, i would have tried to sell this person everything i own.

    As P.T. barnum said, there's one born every second.
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