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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Not trying to light a fire under you or anything (I promise!)

    No worries! :) This is a automotive forum, after all. A place to have discussions and share opinions.

    ...but 8 horsepower would make a difference in a car being on your list or not?

    Ahh, but you omitted the rest of my sentence, which I stated:

    ...maintains the smaller proportions, AND keeps the weight down, they might have another new owner come next summer.


    To me, it's not just the HP, you also have to include the weight, size (both the actual measured proportions, and how big it "feels" behind the wheel), and gearing (as you pointed out with the Honda vs. Saturn numbers). It's all of them together that makes the difference...
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Cadillac CTS 3.6-263 0-60 6.4 17-26EPa mpg interior volume 112 3874

    ****
    2005 Park Avenue Ultra 3.8-240 0-60 7.6 18-27 EPA mpg interior volume 112.1 wt 3860 (note - if you manually shift the automatic(hold it in 2nd) it will get 6.5 seconds, which is nearly the same as the CTS - it's *not* a slow car despite its huge size)

    So many years and nothing really has changed. And I can guarantee that the rear seat actually fits three people in the Park Ave versus the CTS, which feels a LOT smaller and can't actually fit 6 people.

    I'm going to miss the big GM behemoths...

    And, yes, new cars are smaller and weigh more for their size... Kind of a shame...
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    On paper not much has changed, but on the road there's a world of difference. The CTS handles vastly better and is finished to a level not available from GM in '05.

    Having said that, I agree that the big FWD GM sedans of a few years ago were underrated and surprisingly efficient. My MIL has a 2000 LeSabre with the normally aspirated 3800 and it's a decent road trip car with fuel economy comparable to my less spacious 2002 Accord V6.
  • I agree interesting stats, right from different sources. Those sources also show up
    in your reply so it seems we both use the same information basically. One major
    difference is I looked up 2009 reviews and specs not 2007, I wasn't interested in a
    2007 Aura. But just to educate myself since your reply I did look into it and what I
    can see is the 2007 has better numbers on 0-60 than the 2009, actually it is not to
    easy to find the 2009 figures. I have nothing against any of the listed vehicles they
    were what I compared to make the purchase. In your reply you listed 3 different
    0-60 numbers from different ratings, but you did not average it either, I didn't want to modify numbers, not my test. EPA is MPG average individual drivers may vary.
    Good we are happy w/ our MPG we are stuck w/ it. Thanks for the reply.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    My MIL has a 2000 LeSabre with the normally aspirated 3800 and it's a decent road trip car with fuel economy comparable to my less spacious 2002 Accord V6.

    Those 3800s were something else. Despite their "outdated" pushrod design, performance was very good compared to the SOHC/DOHC designs of the day, fuel economy was comparable, and reliability was excellent. There are still tons of 3800s on the road today.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    The Goodyears are crap tires, even the reviews on them are poor. I tried turning off the TC, but the tires lost traction so fast that the engine hit the rev limiter almost instantly, and the Ford does a strange thing, it doesn't upshift if you hit the limiter. I guess it does that to protect the transmission from damage. The GVWR on the car is 4650 pounds. At well over $200 a tire to replace them, I am not going to do any burnouts if I can avoid them for now. When it comes time to replace them though, I shall smoke'm good.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,669
    the engine hit the rev limiter almost instantly, and the Ford does a strange thing, it doesn't upshift if you hit the limiter. I guess it does that to protect the transmission from damage.

    Not strange at all - my 2000 Lincoln LS did the same thing. It held the gear you selected no matter what until you came to a stop in a higher gear - then it would downshift automatically. It's a design choice that allows the driver to choose when to upshift - similar to what would happen in a manual. You're asking for manual gear control by using the selectshift - why would you want it to automagically shift when it doesn't need to?

    Some mfrs upshift at redline which is fine 99% of the time. I just prefer that manual mode really means manual mode and not manual most of the time except when the computer thinks you should upshift.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,072
    >Those 3800s were something else. Despite their "outdated" pushrod design, performance was very good compared to the SOHC/DOHC designs of the day, fuel economy was comparable, and reliability was excellent.

    Let's be clearly honest here to wit that some people mocked and ridiculed the 3800s by GM. However, as said by the previous poster, I can take either of my 3800 leSabres, pack the trunk with luggage and stuff for a trip to stay a few days with long time friends, add three adults, add a cooler with snacks and drinks on the back seat, and get 31-32 mpg for the entire trip on regular fuel at 65-70 with the AC on from Dayton to Nashville via interstate. We arrive without being beaten by the road roughness, having driven in relative quiet with the CD or radio on, talking at normal volumes without fighting road noises and wind noise, and sit in comfort on supportive leather seats. All this in easy room for 6.

    Where do I find a midsize car to replace that? The laCrosse 2010 would be my closest choice, so far.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    As far as I know, with the demise of the 2009 LaCrosse, the option of six-passenger seating is no longer available in any midsize sedan. While I generally prefer individual seating and a center console, I wish the option still existed.

    As for the cross-country midsize/midsize+ sedan, I think the 2010 LaCrosse is the closest replacement. The Lucerne, though only a few years old, is suddenly looking outdated and irrelevant with the upmarket move by the LaCrosse.

    The 2010 Taurus looks like another good bet for a cross-country road trip--not to mention a direct competitor for the LaCrosse in the subcategory of slightly oversize midsize sedan. (Shall we call them "relaxed fit" midsizers?)

    Any other recommendations out there?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Why not a car like the Fusion/Milan or Camry for a cross-country trip? Both have smooth rides (Camry probably a little smoother but handling is not as good), roomy interiors (for 4 + 1 anyway, typical for the class now), and good-sized trunks. Also very good highway fuel economy for such large cars.

    If you need to take a long trip with more than four adults, the middle rear seat passenger won't be happy even in a car like the LaCrosse or Taurus. Might as well get a minivan or 7-8 seat SUV in that case.

    Also, unlike the LaCrosse and Taurus, the Fulan and Camry are actually mid-sized sedans. ;)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    The 2010 Taurus looks like another good bet for a cross-country road trip--not to mention a direct competitor for the LaCrosse in the subcategory of slightly oversize midsize sedan. (Shall we call them "relaxed fit" midsizers

    Where do you get the idea the new Taurus has anything to do with midsize sedans? It is larger than the Impala and almost a foot longer and half-foot wider than a Malibu and is clearly the Ford replacement for the Vic/Marquis. I think Ford even markets it as a full size car.

    The '10 Lacrosse is less than two inches longer and less than a half inch wider than the Accord. I don't think those dimensions push it into a new or subcategory.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Will the 2011 Hyundai Sonata be a game changer?The looks are good and the interior seems very nice and Hyundai`s reliability is massively improving. It definitely is much better than the Fusion/Malibu. And unlike GM it`s going to be in business for a while. Especially the interiors look very good. I like comfy rides and prefer my Lexus/Toyota and cant stand the road noise in the Accord but this Sonata can push the Camcord. ;) Helps keep Toyota/Honda on their toes.Competition is always a good thing for the buyer..Also helps keep prices in check.

    But must say I was surprised with the Malibu.Probably b`cos it is such an improvement over the previous version. Even the interiors are pretty decent.Definitely a step in the right direction. But with BK, no funds--tough to improve a product even though you have ideas. This is GM`s biggest problem and will not go away. Hence GM needs a miracle. :shades:

    Fusion`s interior and drive was mediocre. Surprising that it is so popular and is selling well. Malibu is definitely better than Fusion. But at it`s price with good reliability- a decent deal. A used 1 or 2 yr Fusion is a great bargain.

    And finally the Altima-- the most overrated sedan out there and very pricey for its very average quality.Cheap plastics everywhere , squeaks and rattles in a new car and the drive and handling are very overrated.The car seat material and the fit and finish are so pathetic.The Accord drives much better but has lots of road noise though. Also Nissan`s reliability is very average nowadays with lots of brake and hardware problems. Just cant see how it is worth paying 22k for an Altima which is a POC in my opinion.Very disappointed with the Altima. :lemon:

    Hoping the 2011 Sonata delivers.Can shake up the mid size sedan category putting pressure on Camcord/Malibu/Fusion which is a good thing for us buyers!! :shades:
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Fusion`s interior and drive was mediocre. Surprising that it is so popular and is selling well.

    This is defintely your opinion and certainly not any kind of consensus that I've read. I think the vast majority of owners and professional reviewers would disagree with your assessment and is probably the reason, as you say, "it is so popular and is selling well."

    I tend to agree with you on the Sonata though. From what I've seen of the Korean market model, if they don't change it a lot or eliminate some of the bells and whistles, it will be a much bigger contender than it already is when they start selling it here.
  • Just a little FYI for those that didn't know this bit of trivia.
    The Taurus is the same car that Ford tried to market as the "500" which was a full size sedan. Ford used the "500" on cars back in the 60's with the Galaxy and Fairlane names.
    For some reason Ford sales of the "500" were really bad. Marketing decided that it was just the name that turned off buyers so they renamed the "500" the Taurus, because the Taurus models sold well.
  • I had that problem, reaching redline/limiter immediately too. So, I did my burnout in 3rd gear, and use a patch of water to get it started,. Just about 3 seconds is enough to soften the tires. Makes a big difference in the launch and in the first 60 feet which equated to at least 0.5 seconds in 0-60 times. Of course you start out in 1st for the timed runs, if that wasn't clear.

    You do have the ability to start in any gear wit the Ford don't you?
  • I think the pressure is already on, other than Sonata's big change f/ 2009 the only
    car in the midsize class that I can think of maybe the Mazda6, 2010 or 2011 may
    see others follow suite another change f/ Hyundai is in the works. According to
    auto industry stats I have seen and read about, show slump in sales for all the
    car makers midsize sedans, except 1, their sales actually jumped up 15% f/2009.
    Which prompted them to hire more people to step up production in Alabama. I didn't
    hear about that company getting a hand out of our tax money to stay afloat. The company I bought all my vehicles from since early sixties must not take very good
    care of their business. They got a big chunk of the tax money bail out and still have serious financial problems. Since 1995 I stopped buying their cars they have dropped 2 of their car lines completely (the kind I bought) and 2 more that has been
    put on the discontinue or get rid of list. So my conclusion is, if they don't want them
    I deffintly don't want them either!! Imagine if you have one of those and the dealership closes you got it from and the nearest one is kind of far away who will
    work on it if needed especially under warranty. Well I have been there with that deal
    and sorry but not again. I will stick with growing carmakers that put their customers
    wants on top of their list, and really want to stay in business. I am not that crazy
    about buying from a foreign company, but at least the 1 I just bought is engineered
    and built here in our USA and their job looks secure for the near future not like what
    is going on with some suppose to be BIG DOG companies here. Thanks Hyundai
    for stepping up your game.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    IMO the "drive" of the Fusion is very good, one of the best in the class in terms of a nice blend of composed ride and good handling. Interior? Middle of the pack at best, although improved for 2010.

    I talked with a friend at church yesterday who is looking to buy a new car for the first time in many years. She was thinking of an Altima. I asked her what else she had tried. Drove the Malibu--didn't like it. Drove the Sonata--was OK except the Altima's driver's seat was more comfortable. Doesn't want a Camry--period. Thinks the Accord is nice but overpriced. She has not looked at the Fusion yet. I recommended she do that before jumping for the Altima, as she will do a lot of highway driving and wants a big trunk, and the Fusion does very well in both categories, plus it should cost less than the Altima (although I am seeing some good deals on closeout 2009 Altimas right now). Also I recommended she look at certified used cars e.g. Altima and Fusion, to save some money.
  • I had 3 -3.8L GM's 1 Buick La sabre and 2 Bonnevilles, good cars, good, fairly
    powerful drivetrain, good MPG f/ that generation. Only problem I had with that set up
    and car was Mass air sensor and fuel pump in tank, had the same problem with all three, I almost forgot a lot of alternator trouble. Kind of miss the bigger car and
    the carmaker, but if they don't want them I don't either. Best GM engine IMO was
    the old 283, 327 and 350 4 bolt main but they did burn a lot of gas!

    Using an old famous closing; "GOOD DAY"
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,669
    That was true for the 2009 Taurus but not the 2010 Taurus. For 2010 the platform was modified to handle more torque with 100% new sheetmetal and interior plus numerous new features (push button start, selectshift, 365 hp engine option, BLIS, etc.).

    About the only thing that didn't change was the base 3.5L drivetrain.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    The other thing that didn't change is that it's still a LARGE car.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,669
    Yes it is.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    On paper not much has changed, but on the road there's a world of difference. The CTS handles vastly better and is finished to a level not available from GM in '05.

    It's slightly better, and mostly due to better brakes and tires than anything else. The upgraded suspension option on the top end Buicks and the Cadillacs made them actually better cars by far to drive than the competition(European makes aside, of course, but then again 10-30K more money kind of SHOULD be better...).

    It's like comparing the Lucerne CXS versus the competition it's vastly, no WORLDS better than the non CXS mode(stabilitrak/magnetic suspension/V8/etc).

    It handles great for its size, has tons of torque, and is a beautiful car that reminds you of what Mercedes was making in their mid to late 90s S class. Which is high praise indeed if GM can equal Mercedes older models in ten years time, give or take. That they decided to update it and make it the basis for the new LaCrosse is a good thing. Just PLEASE get/try to top end suspension and engine version. It's well worth the time to find one.

    BTW, the LaCrosse CXS with the suspension upgrade is about 30K if you haggle and after rebates/etc. It's nearly the same car to drive as the CTS for less money(and dare I say, nicer interior and exterior as well)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,618
    i found the article. crazy guy. another reason not to buy a car that was a rental.
  • colloquorcolloquor Posts: 482
    Backy, you may have her possibly re-think the Altima, especially due some of the stories that exist within the Nissan forum regarding the CVT. Nissan's continually improving the transmission, but a number of posts relate to continued problems with the CVT. When it's time for replacement - some have been as early as 50K or less - it's not a rebuild, but a $4K to $5K replacement. No problem during the warranty, but a big problem out of warranty.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I don't have to rethink anything... I'm not the one buying the car. I'm not crazy about the Altima myself, but my friend seems to like how it drives. Maybe she'll really like the Fusion when she goes to drive it.

    Question: are these reports for the CVT on the Altima for all engines, or just the V6? I always wondered if a CVT could handle the kind of power that the Altima's V6 puts out.

    Also, I expect if this becomes a major problem, Nissan will have to do something like extend the warranty on the CVTs, otherwise it won't sell many CVT-equipped cars.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,618
    i was going to work with you on hyundai being a competitive vehicle until you said they took no money.
    maybe you missed the millions in tax breaks from the state to build there.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Good point! Sen. Shelby conveniently seemed to forget that when he was putting the auto execs through the fifth degree.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    I wonder about the CVT handling a lot of hp/torque as well cause they do feel like a rubber band sometimes. '10 Legacy I4=CVT. '10 Legacy 6 cyl=reg slushbox. You'd think if the CVT was the answer Nissan would use them in their Infiniti line but they are putting 7 speed autos in those cars with over 300hp. Could be that the Infiniti buyer might not like a CVT but you have to wonder.
  • Good point, at least we agree on Hyundai being competitive. Now about the money
    issue. Do you know that mostly all states offer tax break incentives to anybody
    willing to move their business there not just car makers, any legal business bigger
    the better. Cities do the same thing and have special comities that go around the
    world to negotiate deals to have them come here, it is even very competitive between states. Case in point Louisiana and another state just went toe to toe to
    get a very large overseas steel company to come here. Hundreds off millions of
    tax breaks were offered by those states. A tax break will not put cash in the hand
    to get a business started nor will it bail it out. As you said tax break from the state
    not our tax $. Not even close to the 25 (billion+) our $ to keep failing car co. afloat!!
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    The Taurus SEL and the LaCrosse CXL are priced within a couple hundred dollars of each other. The two have EPA fuel economy within 1 mpg of each other. Their curb weights differ by four pounds. Yes, the Taurus is six inches longer and three inches wider than the LaCrosse, but the EPA lists both as having an interior volume of 102 cubic feet. They are also US brands with a somewhat conservative image. In my mind, and in the minds of a lot of customers, the two vehicles are quite comparable.

    Oh, wait a minute--the Taurus has a much larger trunk. So obviously no one will cross-shop the two cars, because the Taurus is a "LARGE" car.

    Except that according to both Ford and Edmunds, they do. For the link-impaired, the article referenced at AutoObserver notes that the two vehicles most likely to have been considered by buyers of the 2010 Taurus are the 2010 LaCrosse and the 2010 Fusion.
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