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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,251
    Are you implying that I shouldn't settle for a V6 and instead opt for a V8? V8 equipped vehicles fall out of the Midsize Sedans topic. To humor the comment, though, my budget goes into Genesis territory (not beyond .. I'm not rich), but I don't want to spend that much on a car that will get door dings and otherwise be abused by the careless drivers around the Chicago area.

    (OT drift: You should see the scrapes on my wife's passenger doors from the careless people where she works. Not just dings, although she has those as well, but out and out scrapes where a door was obviously slammed into her car. The attacker's car was red; that's how hard they "dinged" it. Amazing there's no real dent. And my car was new for all of three weeks before it was dinged. People just don't pay attention and don't care about other people's property at all. Also, the parking lot where I work has narrow spaces which doesn't help.)

    As to NVH work outside of the engine, that's true and such work would apply to both 4 & 6 cylinder models. Since it applies to both I'm not sure how it factors into the equation. Are manufacturers really adding more sound deadening material to V6 models to tone them down?

    My hearing is very sensitive to background noise. Hums from machinery, conversations at other tables at restaurants, radios in the background, etc. are all things that intrude my ability to focus on the task at hand or concentrate on a conversation. The part of my body's auditory system that filters/mutes background noise doesn't do as good a job as I would like. So I need quiet. I need a quiet engine as well as quiet tires. Especially when someone in the car *cough* wife *cough* isn't so quiet.

    That Hyundai is dropping the V6 certainly has jump started this discussion. I don't think the Midsize Sedans thread has been this active for a while.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Not all sixes are created equal! A 60-degree V6 actually cancels out its own second-order vibrations, as does an inline six. A 90-degree V6, like the one in your Windstar, is not inherently balanced in this way.

    There are other factors too. Larger piston mass and longer connecting rods can both contribute to perceived roughness. This is why, for example, the VQ30 V6 from the Maxima of ten years ago is smoother than the VQ35 in today's Altima or the VQ37 in the 370Z, though they are all derived from the same basic design.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Re canceling vibrations... don't many I4s have "balance shafts" that are supposed to cancel out vibration? Those used to be pretty popular, but I don't hear much about them anymore. I don't know if that is because they are no longer used, or if they are so commonplace now that they aren't worth mentioning.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    My impression is that balance shafts are pretty universal now, at least for four-cylinder midsize sedans.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Go test drive a 2007 Lexus RX400h, and come back about engine noise. It has a V6 that sounds like it wants to leave the vehicle. I have driven a lot of i4 engines, and other then those about to throw a rod, none sound as bad as the V6 in the 400h.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    don't be so narrow minded there are also straight 6's and flat 6's. ;)
    you can get a v8, but they are at the top end (M3, IS-F).
    a lot of v6's (and 4's) have things like active engine mounts to cut down on NVH.
    i agree with a prior post that a lot of larger 4's have balance shafts, to help out with the same.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If Wikipedia is to be believed...
    "Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle" and
    "An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft" and
    "An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration." and
    "An even-firing inline-four engine is in primary balance"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline-four_engine
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    I am hearing the 2010 Car of the year is the Ford Fusion!? Ford has come a long, long way in just 5 years. Quality, reliability ratings, safety ratings all at the top. Beings the owner of an 06 Fusion SEL V6, and now reaching about 50,000 rattle free, squeak free, trouble free miles.. I grin. I know I bought a quality vehicle, for thousands less than a comparable Accord/Passat/Camry. Next for me is the 2011 Ford Focus.. Where do I sign??
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why the 2011 Focus, are they finally going to update it?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Maybe Ford will make it a lot bigger... mid-sized, even!

    ;)
  • Maybe Ford will make it a lot bigger... mid-sized, even!

    ---------------------------------------------------

    I don't think the Focus will be re-designed before 2012. The current version bowed in 2008 so 2013 is more likely. It might be mid-size by then. Similar in size to the Elantra which is a legit mid-size. Who knows: maybe the 2013 Focus will be slotted to replace the Lincoln Town Car! ;)

    Speaking of mid-size sedans: GM is stating the Cruze will be one of the largest cars in it's class. Maybe we can work the Cruze into this discussion too. :P
  • Off topic: The latest is the new 2011 Ford Focus will be introduced at the Detroit Auto Show. It'll finally be on the same platform and design as the "world-car" Focus which is highly praised in Europe.

    On topic: Congrats to Ford for the MTCOTY for 2010. It's in my short list to replace my Mazda6 later this spring. A Sport with the 3.5L, no less. :)
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Sport is an Awesome car. I enjoy every moment driving it, the only thing, the only, that I don't like are the tires, the Badyears have lousy traction, but those are easy to replace. Then again I never had a new car that had decent tires, they were all pretty crappy, especially those on the Prius, They were go nowhere in snow tires.
  • The latest is the new 2011 Ford Focus will be introduced at the Detroit Auto Show.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Wow! That is a quick redesign! It would be even more amazing if they were able to successfully launch it as a 2011 N. American model in 2010. That would leave the current generation Focus as a "3 year model".

    --------------------------------------------------

    Now back to your regularly scheduled program on mid-size sedans,,,,
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    My impression is that it's not that quick--it's based on a Euro design already in production.

    Now, to edge things back toward midsize sedans--there are strong indications that the next-generation Fusion will be based on the Mondeo. . .
  • Hey Backy, me again I promise to be more "civil" seems as though everyone's (IMO) ends up to be the topic instead of the cars, "my bad also". Anyway in response
    to subject of I4 versus V6 it will be a personnel opinion, and that is a given, it will differ w/ that said I would like to put my thoughts in the ring. I also have been driving
    a long time and many different types of engines from old time I6's and V8's and I4's.
    All were fairly efficient but my last I4 was a 2.4L (at the time 150hp), climbing an
    overpass near home it would barely increase in speed w/ the pedal to medal. At the
    same time my wife has a 2002 Mazda 626 V6 2.5L 165hp.(we still have them). Both
    are about as noisy as the other, the I4 exhaust noise the V6 induction noise, the V6 being much smoother. The big differences is acceleration, "not even close" for
    15hp difference. The V6 will eat the I4 up hands down. Now on another note I also
    have a 2009 Sonata 3.3L V6 249hp, it will make the Mazda look and feel like the
    I4 in comparison. I know the new version I4 has improved according to reports, I have no experience as to the new I4 only hear say. In the sixty's the I4 was a rare
    thing to find it was either a I6 or V8 and there was no comparison in performance.
    This new version SEV6 has special hydraulic drive trane mounts and it is the smoothest and the quietest car I have ever drove, bar none.

    Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6?? Now
    if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen. Take the VW Passat it has a 200hp turbo I4 but it's mpg is not rated any
    better than my V6 ( check EPA rating).

    To each his own, I came from the age of more hp the better, it's hard to kick the
    habit. You'll have a wonderfull day!!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Actually the Passat is one mpg better (combined) than the Sonata V6, must be round off that has the other figures the same. Of course the Passat requires premium.

    Anyway, isn't one difference that the turbo has much more torque at low rpm and a flatter torque curve? How often would you actually be at 6000 rpm, where the Sonata has that 249 HP? Meanwhile the Passat torque peak is at only 1800 rpm and even the 200 HP peak is at 5100.

    edit: note that we do know that at 4500 rpm the Sonata V6 has "only" 196 HP, based on the peak torque figure (229 ft-lbs @ 4500 rpm).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6??

    I don't think it is a matter of "keeping up" with the horsepower ratings of a V6 any more than a V6 keeps up with a V8, a V8 with a turbo V8 or V12, etc.

    R&D helps engines become more efficient power producers - customers expect higher outputs with a new generation; when they don't get that, they balk (anyone remember the hoopla about the TSX losing 4 horses even though usable torque went up?). Cars get bigger, safer, so their engines increase in output to keep up. My 166-horse Accord will outrun a brand-new 190-horse Accord to 60 miles an hour according to Car and Driver (8.1 vs. 8.2 seconds for automatic models, comparing a 2007 LX-SE to a 2008 EX). The increased output in that car isn't to "challenge a V6" in power, but rather to keep up speed with the increased size and weight of the car. Along with increased power from these four-cylinder engines are modern transmissions with 5 or 6 forward speeds getting the most from these engines, so you aren't stuck out of the peak powerband like you might get caught in a 4-speed.

    Is roughly eight seconds to sixty miles an hour not "sufficient?" Its plenty powerful to me with a carload of people.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Where I have a question is if the nowadays I4 is "suffecient" and get very good MPG why are they modifing it to try and keep up w/ the Hp rating of the V6?? Now
    if the MPG also goes up O.K. that may justify it, but if it will or even can remains to be seen.


    This may interest you, it seems relevant to your comment: more power plus greater fuel economy in the 2011 Sonata 2.4L DI:

    link title

    So, why more power? My guess is, because cars keep getting larger and heavier (more safety equipment, and just the general up-sizing of cars). Also because Americans (in particular) like powerful, fast cars. More power with better fuel economy... that is a nice combo. It would be interesting to know if greater FE improvements could be had by holding the power down, e.g. what FE would a 2.0L, 175 hp DI engine make? But torque is part of the equation, too--as you found out in that overpass situation.
  • Hyundai/Kia are flat out spanking the competition these days. The '11 Sonata could be a game changer/deal maker like the 1986 Ford Taurus or Chrysler's break-through mini-vans of the early '80's. The FoMoCo and Mopar products were revolutionary at the time and changed the landscape of automobiles in America.

    The Kia Forte and next gen Optima along with the '11 Sonata can do the same thing. If Hyundai keeps rolling, they will continue to gain market share and put a couple companies out of business that should have been out of business last year anyway.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I'd say they are competing nicely, but nothing more. Where do you see them "spanking" the competition?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'm with you there; they're fully competitive, especially in their price-points, but I don't think I'd call anything they sell "best-in-class" right now, but a good chunk of them in the top-5 (VeraCruz, Elantra/Touring, SantaFe, Sonata).
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    there is a common perception that 4 cyl's are still weak, especially from those older folks.
    i had a 4cyl ford focus stick that was rated @33 mpg highway.
    took it from ct to ohio to michigan and back. averaged 38+ mpg.
    could put the cruise on 70 and take the largest hills in PA with no problem.
    epa ratings get you in the ball park, but that's it.
    we have an 04 escape 200 hp v6 with part time 4wd, it was rated @ 18/23 under the old system. lifetime average over 75k is a bit over 19.
    we also have an 09 escape 240 hp v6 with full time awd. rated at 17/24 under the new system. average mpg over 8k so far 22+.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    but I don't think I'd call anything they sell "best-in-class" right now, but a good chunk of them in the top-5

    Thing is, the top five are functionally interchangeable in many classes. They're so close to one another that there's no single car that's clearly "best in class" anymore--in the midsize sedan class, or in the others you mention. I'd say "five way tie for first."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    There are some opinions that Hyundai has some best in class offerings. CR ranks Elantra on top in small cars, and Genesis on top in upscale sedans, for example. Sonata is a pretty old design now, but I think it has a good chance for some "best in class" awards next year. I will go out on a limb and predict the 2011 Sonata will be the next MT COTY. (Not so far-fetched--Genesis was runner-up in 2009.)
  • Mostly in increased market share. Hyundai also has several new models for 2011 - 2012 that will be game-changers.

    Hyundai-Kia in the 2010's will be similar to Toyota-Lexus of the 1980's. Look out because they are a strong company in tune with the times.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    CR ranks Elantra on top in small cars

    Eh, it needs something more than a 4-speed with the old 2.0L Beta to be on my list. It'd be peppier and more economical. I'm spoiled by 5-speeds!

    I'm afraid I'm not helping with the topic of midsizers here, though. Let's see...

    I drove my Accord today; I love how quickly the heat gets warm on cold days (that makes this post back on topic, right?). My old Honda never has been quick to blow warm air.
  • RE: Elantra: I'm afraid I'm not helping with the topic of midsizers here, though. Let's see...

    -----------------------------------------------------

    I realize the Elantra doesn't fit into this thread directly, but it is a surprisingly roomy mid-size sedan. ;)

    The 2011 Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are set to displace the Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry next year. It will be fun to watch.

    And speaking of the Elantra, a 2011 model, looking as gorgeous as the new Sonata, is set for launch next year. Look for more transmission options, mid-size room and 40mpg highway. :P

    2011 Elantra
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,049
    I think Hyundai has a ways to go before people equate it with a Lexus. Likewise with Kia/Toyota. Of course if "set to displace" means 5-7 yrs it may be possible if Toyota doesn't wake up and smell the roses in the meantime.
  • Of course if "set to displace" means 5-7 yrs it may be possible if Toyota doesn't wake up and smell the roses...

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Toyota and Honda are scared $htless of Hyundai. 5 five years ago, they didn't take the Koreans seriously. Big mistake.

    While Toyota/Honda were asleep at the wheel, Hyundai was, and is, working 24/7. The momentum has been building for a few years and Hyundai is ready to bust through the dam next year with new models aimed at Gen X, Gen Y, and Baby Boomers. They have hit the target.

    You are correct that it won't happen quickly (in 2010) but it won't take 5-7 years either. 3 or 4 years from now automakers around the world, those still standing, will be punch drunk and trying to figure out what hit them.

    I have that much confidence in Hyundai. You will too if you give them a chance to win your business next year.
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