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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    "According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, Hyundai cars averaged 30.1 miles per gallon for the 2009 model year.

    Rounding out the top five are Honda (29.7 mpg), Volkswagen (29.6), Toyota (29.4) and Kia (28.0). Naturally, we can expect all of these figures to continue rising in the coming years as every automaker strives to meet the upcoming 35.5 mpg U.S. standard for the 2016 model year."

    Looks like the new DI 4 cyl that Hyundai is putting in the '11 Sonata will up the game in this contest even more. Since that is their bread and butter car, the 35+(old 4's 32 hwy mpg + 10%) hwy mpg that is estimated should have a major effect on the company's overall efficiency. No real trucks really helps here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Don't forget the hybrid variant of the Sonata is coming also, along with a redesigned Tucson, Accent, and Elantra in the next year or so that will no longer use the old Alpha and Beta engines, but engines with greater fuel efficiency AND power. I don't expect Honda, Toyota et. al. will be sitting still though. And as you implied, Toyota's average would be much higher considering only cars and crossover SUVs.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    IMHO Hyundai needs to put their focus on suspension to meet up with Camcord and even Fusion and Malibu. The Sonata just doesn't seem to ride and handle as smoothly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Vehicle .... Nov 09 .... YTD.......vs 11/08 YTD
    Camry ..... 27400 .... 321900 .... ( 89500 )*
    Accord .... 17200 .... 261800 .... ( 88600 )
    Altima ..... 15500 .... 184900 .... ( 67000 )
    Fusion .... 13800 .... 162000 .... + 24500**
    Malibu .... 11100 .... 142200 .... ( 18700 )
    Sonata ..... 8200 .... 109500 ...... ( 1200 )***

    *Loss of Solara sales included but Venza replacement not included
    **The only midsizer to increase sales this year
    ***Close to breakeven despite a down year for the industry.

    Conclusions:
    The Fusion and Sonata have prospered this year obviously and the Malibu is doing decently given what GM went through. Fleet Sales results pending.
    The Camry lost a lot of sales but remains solidly the King of the Hill. The addition of the Venza is a big plus for the corporation as a replacement for the Solara.
    The Accord and the Altima have taken it on the chin.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    From montgomeryadvertiser.com on Nov 30, the hyundai plant success is addressed as follows: About 10:30 a.m. today, it will roll off the end of the line as the millionth vehicle produced at the plant. The first Montgomery-made Sonata in March 2005 and the plant's first Santa Fe the next year received signatures from workers at the plant and have been kept as a couple of museum pieces.
    Vehicle No. 1 million won't have such a simple life. Hyundai builds cars to sell them, and this one will be sold like any other vehicle.
    According to plant spokesman Robert Burns, it is likely to end up in a rental fleet somewhere. The rental car companies have been stocking up on 2010 Sonatas, and the bulk of the production of that model now is going to fleets.


    Hyundai apparently makes fleet sales a significant portion of its business. Ford and GM paid the price for this and if history repeats itself, hyundai owners will have cars that plummet in resale value real fast and eventually, the fleet sales may come back to haunt hyundai as well.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    Hyundai is a poor depreciator, not just fleet sales, but massive promotions. You've got to wonder how than can sell so cheaply without maybe Korean government support???
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    There is another side to fleet sales. It puts "butts in seats." One of Hyundai's biggest issues, maybe the biggest, is the number of people who wouldn't consider buying one. Sometimes that's because they refuse to buy a Hyundai. But sometimes it's because of unfamiliarity. I got familar with Hyundai--first the Elantra, then the Sonata--via rentals. The positive experience I had with those rentals was a big reason I bought a Hyundai ten years ago, and why I bought a Sonata this past weekend. While test-driving that car, I mentioned I already knew a lot about it, mostly from many rentals. The sales rep replied that he's had many customers come in to look at the Sonata because they were exposed to it as a rental. I was also first exposed to the Fulan via rentals, and was so impressed I put it on my shopping list a couple of times in the past 3 years (couldn't work out a good enough deal, however). OTOH, I've eliminated some cars from contention because of my rental experiences.

    So there's some upside for automakers to sell to fleets. Another being, they are profitable sales. Maybe not as profitable as a retail sale or lease w/o big incentives, but they add to the bottom line.

    One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them? :sick:

  • One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them?


    I think that is happening. The last Ford Fusion rental (Hertz) car I got had 53k, the Subaru Legacy rental (Budget) car I got this last July was an '07. It might be regional as well: I have always gotten a Ford in MI, a Hyundai in OH, and until the Subaru, a GM in CA (although that car was made when GM still had a stake in Subaru, I think). Eh I take that back, I have gotten a Fusion in CA too, but its been almost always GM vehicles. Everything recently has had a lot of miles on it though.

    Oh and there are differences in fleet sales. Fleet sales to Hertz, Enterprise, or what not are usually not so helpful, while sales to So Cal Edison, Cox Cable, AT&T, etc are usually more positive.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    Yeah, I said pretty much the same thing a couple of days ago on this forum. I think Hyundai knew that with the all new model coming this spring they would have to sell the '10 Sonata at huge discounts so why not avoid the hassle and sell them at huge discounts in large chunks to rental fleets. Also, keeping the presses running pays the light bills and is also a way of advertising and creating that mainstream perception.

    The reason that the big 3 were so tied to rental fleets was because of union contracts. If they stopped the lines they had to pay the workers about 90% of what they usually made and layoffs were also difficult so they kept the presses running and sold them to rental fleets. Now comes Uncle Sam bailout, bankruptcy, union contracts void. They can now stop the presses without too much pain and less fleet sales. Those are my thoughts anyway....just adding 2 + 2.
  • i'm planing to buy altima 2.5s, the dealer offered me 2009 altima 2.5s ODT: $20534, is this price resealable? or i still can get lower price through negotiation? and how to negotiate with dealer? i really have no idea how to do this? any tips? thanks
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Selling to rental fleets is not, I think, in itself a big negative. It is when the sales to the rental fleets are at very low prices and then the fleets can resell 1-2 year old cars at very cheap prices.

    For example, it used to be one could, with no effort at all, buy a 1-2 year old Taurus for $10-11K. When that was an option, it made it difficult for Ford to get anywhere near MSRP on a similar new Taurus. It was a great deal for the consumer though...I know I was always tempted to buy one of those Tauri, rather than a new car.
  • Does KIA sell it's Optimas to rental fleets in the same way? If not, why do they depreciate even more than the Sonatas?My 2 and a half year old Optima EX is worth less than half of what I paid for it.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Agreed, They make great cars, but lack a bit in the suspension department. The Veracruz I have is a far better car than the Lexus RX350 I test drove with one exception, rear suspension noise over bumps. The ride is good, smooth, handles well, but when you hit a sharp bump, you get a clunk in the rear. That is my only real complaint about the entire car. So far after nearly 2 years owning it, will be in Feb, the only thing I have had them work on was the radio, the AM filter died and got very noisy, so they replaced he radio, but damaged the steering wheel in the process, so they replaced that as well. So Hyundai needs to work on the suspension and their service to get ahead of the other companies.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Maybe you overpaid ;)

    Where are you getting the value from?

    I think Kia just has a bad reputation. It is the one brand that my kids (ages 20-25) uniformly indicate they would not want to buy "because they are crap". I am not saying this is true, but that is the impression they have of the brand. They do not say this about Hyundai.

    I seem to recall reading that the Mazda6 was pouring into the rental fleets at the time I bought mine in early 2007. Yet, according to edmunds, my 2007 Mazda6 with 22K mi has a trade in value of about 75% of what I paid, a private party value of about 85% of what I paid, and a dealer retail value of about 95% of what I paid.

    Hertz is also selling 2008s with far more miles than I have (35-40K) for about 75% of what I paid. I did buy at a lower than average price. If I'd paid what edmunds indicated the average price was at the time, then I think trade in value would be more like 65%.

    This goes back to an old debate here...that your personal depreciation rate can vary by a lot, depending on the price you pay when you buy.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    So true. After nearly six years, my 2004 Elantra (marginally mid-sized, so on topic :) ) is worth over 50% of its purchase price in a private-party sale (per KBB, Edmunds, and local prices). But my purchase price was a good one. I got just over 50% of my purchase price when I sold my 2001 Elantra after 5-1/2 years, and my deal on that one wasn't nearly as good as on the 2004.

    I recall in 2007-8, it was possible to buy a well-equipped Mazda6i Sport for just over $16k, for a $22k car. Do that kind of thing, and you won't have any problem on resale value.

    "Buy low, sell high."
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    Nissan recently announced that they were adding as a $400 option a 5" screen Bosch made GPS to, I think the term was, their "most popular cars". The articles I've read mentioned Sentra, Versa and Cube. Has anyone read anything about the Altima getting this?

    The unit had bluetooth for phone, ability to add back-up camera, touchscreen and the reviewer from the Detroit News was very postive. A 5" screen is small versus most installed units(except for Suzukis) but is a lot bigger than a 3.5" or 4.3" portable units that don't have intergrated bluetooth/back up camera. Quite a move by Nissan.

    I'm thinking that they will keep the more expensive GPS units in the Altima, Maxima etc(lot more profit) but it may push prices down on these kinds of systems going forward. I like it.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Suzuki started this more sensible idea, I believe.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    A 5" screen is small versus most installed units(except for Suzukis

    That's why I mentioned Suzuki in my post. Their's is kind of a hybrid though. A Garmin unit that is installed in the dash but can be taken out for portability. Doesn't have the interconnected(with sound system) bluetooth for phones or the back-up camera capability to my knowledge.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Sorry, I totally missed your mention of suzuki. I am not up on the details of these things and I was assuming when you indicated it was a smaller unit that it was really just a spot where they installed a portable one like Suzuki. I guess that is not the case and this is just a smaller permanent unit. I actually think the Suzuki set-up makes the most sense, if I actually desired one of these things, I'd rather just have a convenient place to put a portable one.

    But, $400 makes it a lot more reasonable that the ridiculous $2000 that people have been paying for these things.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    I'm retired now and am taking more car trips and I use a portable gps unit. It keeps me company to some degree and helps a lot when I get off the beaten path and don't want to keep stopping to read maps. Kind of fun actually. Comes in handy when you're looking up ahead for certain gas stations or restaurants near exits. Kind of a toy I admit, but as toys go it's fairly inexpensive. I also use a portable, bluetooth speaker for my cell. It works well on trips when I take advantage of the drive time on weekends and call relatives and talk for an hour or so on the freeway handsfree.

    It's kind of a pain hiding the portable gps unit all the time when you stop though. That's why I'm looking to get everything integrated in my next vehicle. Not necessary but just something I would like to have. I usually keep cars for 7-10 years. How many more new cars am I going to buy in my lifetime....might as well have what I want within reason. And you're right, $2000 is not within reason IMO.

    Altima is still a car of interest to me and that's why I'm wondering if anybody knows about the new Nissan gps unit possibly being available in that. Like I said, I don't think it will be but I can hope.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    We have a TomTom unit that fits very nicely (via round rubber base) into a drink holder, then plugs into the outlet in the console. Cost under $100 a year ago, now I see in Black Friday sales they can be had for under $70. Just a basic nav unit but does its job well, and we can use it in any car. So I can see why Nissan is taking this step to reduce the price of in-dash GPS in their lower-end cars. They can still make a profit on them and many more people might buy it at the lower price point. I'd never go for the $2000-ish factory GPS systems--not enough value there for me. Also Bluetooth is increasingly becoming standard or a low-cost option. Note it's standard on the Forte (mid-sized interior!!) and I think Hyundai said Bluetooth would be standard on the 2011 Sonata, but I'm not sure on that. I expect within 2-3 years we'll see Bluetooth standard on nearly every mid-sized family sedan, except the "value leader" trims ala Mazda6 SV.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The only thing I have seen (and maybe you have already seen this yourself) says:
    "The only question that remains is whether the Altima will be available with this system, the $1,780 technology package that is required for navigation on the Altima may be too lucrative for Nissan to give up."

    http://blog.pricewheels.com/2009/12/01/nissan-to-offer-400-navigation-system-on-- small-cars/
  • Don't know if you can still get in or how much is left but there is a webcast presentation of the 2011 Sonata unveiling going on right now at

    http://www.hyundaimedialive.com
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    Selling to rental fleets is not, I think, in itself a big negative. It is when the sales to the rental fleets are at very low prices and then the fleets can resell 1-2 year old cars at very cheap prices.

    I think you hit it on the head here. I've gained or lost interest in a vehicle after I rented it. I also bought a year old Taurus early in the decade for $10,500 or about $5 grand less than a new one. It wasn't a bad car either, but did start having too many nickel and dime issues after around 60K. I believe the newer Ford's have improved in longevity though.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    You can go though a lot of portable GPS before you spend what an integrated one costs. Also, GPS updates are rather expensive if you're keeping it for 6 or 7 years. Tom Tom are decent units. I think Garmin are better, but they tend to run a bit more.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    I think Hyundai said Bluetooth would be standard on the 2011 Sonata, but I'm not sure on that

    Your memory is correct. Following is from the Hyundai release at the LA auto show

    First vehicle in its class to offer a Bluetooth hands-free phone system standard

    It's also interesting that the SE model will have 2 more of each hp/ft torque due to dual exhaust. Wonder what could be done with even less backpressure down the road? Also, they hint at bringing a turbocharged version of the 2.4 on line down the road, possibly late 2010. No hp estimates but I would guess about 240. They get 210 out of the 2.0 in the Genesis.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    Note to self: Read press releases thoroughly!

    The Turbo that the Sonata is going to get is the 2.0 not a 2.4 as I mentioned previously. This engine in the Genesis coupe makes 210 ponies. Doesn't seem like that would be so exciting versus 200 in the SE version unless the torque is out of sight.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Yeah, but you get those cool dual exhausts too! :)

    Now that I am driving around in my new (for me) 2007 Sonata with all of 162 ponies, which is paltry by current standards in this class, I can say I have no want for power. I have yet to need to floor it. It's actually too quick/fast for DW--she has a hard time keeping it under the speed limit. So 200 (or 198) ponies in a lighter car, with more torque... not a problem.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    I do have dual exhausts on my '07 Mazda6 I4 with all of about 156hp and man do they make it fly. :D Don't really have a need for more power but given similar price at time of purchase and 35mpg, I will take the 198 hp all day long. Good luck with your new car.
  • I think Kia just has a bad reputation. It is the one brand that my kids (ages 20-25) uniformly indicate they would not want to buy "because they are crap". I am not saying this is true, but that is the impression they have of the brand. They do not say this about Hyundai.

    Umm...it's not 1998 anymore people! What the? I have owned two new Kia's and found them to be good and reliable vehicles. No expenses sprung on you besides regular maintenance.

    You may very well get a recall or a TSB but of course these are fully funded by the vehicle manufacturer. What is different from Ford, GM, Toyota or Honda in that regard, though? Yikes. I thought we had grown up and past that kind of poo-poo attitude towards Kia Motors of South Korea but apparently not.

    Really, reliable powertrains are provided, trim pieces don't fall off, things stay together as they should, etc. Public perceptions can be wrong and/or, in this case, just plain wrong as all get out.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

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