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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Oh I agree with you about there being a hundred factors which influence acceleration numbers. I only got started on the whole debate because someone made the blanket statement that Fusion V6 was "much faster" than competing 4-cylinders. That's simply not the case for Accord manual and Altima manual and CVT, they are right there with the Fusion V6. Car and Driver clocked a 2.5L manual Altima at 7.2 seconds, matching the best time I've seen for a Fusion (the Motor Trend test).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I go along with them having lowered Sonata fleet sales but they were selling ove 50% of them to fleets as of July 2006. I doubt the big drop in Sonata sales is a result of them cutting fleet sales by the same amount.

    Hmmm, interesting correlation. I think you may be on to something here!

    I think there's a few factors behind the drop in Sonata sales:

    * HMA's decision to reduce fleet sales.
    * A big increase in Santa Fe sales over last year; Santa Fes are made in the same plant as Sonatas, so if they can sell a higher-priced Santa Fe vs. a Sonata, which would they choose?
    * Reduction in Sonata incentives compared to last year.
    * General slowness in the auto industry coupled with stronger competition this year vs. last year (e.g. new Camry, new Aura, big incentives on Accords and Mazda6's, improving reputation for Fulan), combined with no major changes to the Sonata since its introduction two years ago. It's no longer the "fresh-faced kid on the block."
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving.

    Wow, why do you live in a miserable place with stop and go traffic? Why don't you live closer to work?

    I personally hated it. Besides you can't chat on the cell phone and drive if you drive a stick

    Maybe if you didn't have a boring car and lots of "stop and go traffic" you would actually enjoy driving and not want to talk on the phone :P
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    I only got started on the whole debate because someone made the blanket statement that Fusion V6 was "much faster" than competing 4-cylinders.

    It wasn't a blanket statement originally. I was comparing an ATX to an ATX. You made it into an ATX vs MTX argument and you are right about that as I pointed out. However, your 0-60 times for the Accord 5A were just plain wrong and the Fusion V6 is a much better performer than the Accord I4 5A. Plus they are really, really close in price. .8 to 1 second difference is big no matter how you slice it.

    Those of you who have bought an Accord I4 5M are getting quite a performance deal because it is nearly every bit as quick as a Fusion V6 for $1k or $2k less. But I don't imagine many of you do have an Accord with that drivetrain so my point still applies to the vast majority.

    Oh I agree with you about there being a hundred factors which influence acceleration numbers.

    A lot of people don't get that though. If the two weren't tested on the same track, on the same day, and with the same driver, then it's hard to believe any comparison of numbers.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Agreed, on nearly all points. That Accord I4 5A time was probably fast by 0.2 seconds. A few things to consider, regarding the ATX to ATX argument: Altima 2.5L CVT is very nearly as quick as the fastest test of a Fusion V6 ATX. Also, I suspect the 2008 Accord (with the new A-VTEC engines and resulting power increases) will be able to match the Altima, closing the gap to the Fusion unless Ford has some new tricks. A-VTEC promises to increase economy as well, where the Accord already has a distinct advantage (I am seeing 28-29 city and 34-38 highway).
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving.

    I find it quite easy to drive a stick in stop and go traffic. I actually prefer it to an automatic because I can anticipate and coast. And I've spent a lot of time in that kind of traffic. :sick:
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Accord (with the new A-VTEC engines and resulting power increases) will be able to match the Altima, closing the gap to the Fusion unless Ford has some new tricks.

    Well, that brings us back to the whole origin of this and other conversations I'm trying to clear up here. The new PIP D30 engine for the Fusion and Escape will, if all the news on Ford forums are correct, have more horsepower and better fuel economy with no hit in price.

    A CVT is a completely different animal but it is the closest thing to an ATX Nissan offers in the Altima right now so I'd say that's fair to compare too. 99% of Freestyle owners I've come across say it has plenty of power for them with the CVT (which is gone for the Taurus X and D35 motor BTW) and that's a heavy vehicle with a relatively weak engine. So something good has to be going on in a CVT. I've never driven a CVT equipped vehicle, so I can't attest to the magic they perform. ;)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,426
    "Dont you find it difficult driving a manual in stop and go driving. I personally hated it. Besides you can't chat on the cell phone and drive if you drive a stick"

    When I used to live in an area that had rush hour I still preferred a manual. Now the nearest town with any kind of traffic congestion is about 200 miles away. I go years at a time between waiting more than one cycle for a light. :P

    As far as cell phones go the Accord is quiet enough that I can just put it on speaker. ;)

    Love the drivetrain in the I4 manual. Nice and quick, but still give Focus like fuel economy (or better). My lifetime mpg is 31.3 for my Accord, and 40 mpg is obtainable on the highway - 35 mpg under poor conditions. :D

    Still, I was another that looked at the Fusion. It is a nice drive, but the dash and switch gear are below my 1990 Acura, seemed a little more cramped than the Accord, and mpg was not there. I also wish they made a wagon.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    also wish they made a wagon.

    Yeah that ruled out the Accord and others the last go around, but this time the car is for me so the needs are different.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    If Hyundai cut back on its fleet sales by 60%, their April '07 sales of 10,434 would have had 8347 retail sales and 2087 fleet sales. Using your 50% figure, April, '06 sales would have been 7858 retail & 7858 fleet.

    Cutting back fleet sales to a total of 20% is not unrealistic. :P
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    if all the news on Ford forums are correct, have more horsepower and better fuel economy with no hit in price
    when Toyota developed the new 3.5 2GR they did it with a savings of $1000.00 per engine and picked up 80 hp,a coupla mpgs in the process, and did it with enough (US) plant capacities to use it in about every car that Toyota and Lexus makes. That Ford should be 'rewarded' 'by a hit in price' is silly. For what, maybe making an engine that is borderline competitive, 5 years too late? I only hope that they can figure out how to take out whatever it is that makes the engine so rough sounding and harsh feeling. Even the (new?) DT3.5 has been getting some mixed reviews in that dept.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I also wish they made a wagon.

    I think the Edge is essentially the Fusion wagon.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Good point assuming those are Sonata numbers. I guess I was figuring on the sales numbers to be higher for some reason.

    The key word in your proposal is "if" though. Did Hyundai cut Sonata fleet sales back by 60%? I'm not saying they didn't, but did they? History would tell us that they didn't.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    That Ford should be 'rewarded' 'by a hit in price' is silly.

    I never said there would be a hit in price. I have no idea what the price will be and neither does anyone else at this point. I'm guessing they won't raise the price when the new version of the engine comes out.

    I only hope that they can figure out how to take out whatever it is that makes the engine so rough sounding and harsh feeling.

    Mazda did but I don't know that Ford will.

    when Toyota developed the new 3.5 2GR they did it with a savings of $1000.00 per engine and picked up 80 hp,a coupla mpgs in the process, and did it with enough (US) plant capacities to use it in about every car that Toyota and Lexus makes.

    This isn't the right place for this, but Ford, GM, DCX, and Toyota plants are not of the same breed. Ford is now finally converting it's plants to support flexible manufacturing which will also lower re-tooling costs and time. Right now that's just not the case. Did you read that article I posted about the PIP D30? It is going to take them a little over a year to re-tool the Cleveland engine plant #2 to prpcude that engine. Toyota does not have to deal with such downtime because their plants are much newer.

    FWIW, the other DT35 engine plants are set up to switch between building the DT35 and DT37 variants with little or no downtime as I understand it. They are taking their sweet old time with the new engine but I think we can all agree that they have to to get it right. And should.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,426
    "I think the Edge is essentially the Fusion wagon. "

    Yes true, but the 4-cyl is borderline for mpg. The V-6 just uses way too much fuel, and I require a stick shift. I am also not interested in the whole crossover thing - just a regular wagon with all the advantages of a sedan, but more room.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Mazda did but I don't know that Ford will.
    having never driven a 6 but obviously with a lot of bad taste in my mouth for the Ford DT3.0- correct me if I'm wrong, - except for the blown 4 banger, Ford and Mazda drivetrains are identical, even to the point of coming out of that same Ohio factory?
    Ford can't do what it wants or needs to do because of some nasty labor contracts as well as horrendous losses in the last few years. Toyota can do and did obviously what it needed to for pretty much the opposite reasons. It takes money to make money, and Toyota sure has beaucoups of that. If it takes Ford another year or two to get a lousy 240hp V6 out, it will be too late, as usual and the Fusion (so equipped) will be a market afterthought - if it isn't already.
    Remember that when the 500 came out hampered by the same engine, Ford promised then that they would have a better engine for it for the 06 model. Didn't happen, of course and now even the renamed Taurus which was promised for last month, is still not here. Promises come from the sales depts., real cars are what the bean counters allow to be built.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    The key word in your proposal is "if" though. Did Hyundai cut Sonata fleet sales back by 60%? I'm not saying they didn't, but did they? History would tell us that they didn't.

    That history you speak of would be the purposeful program Hyundai had for a good part of 06 on the Sonatas. Aside from that, Hyundai's fleet figures are average at best. The purpose of the Sonata program, and I'm paraphrasing Hyundai officials' words - to get as many butts in the Sonata as possible ;)

    Most automakers do not have fleet/retail split model-by model readily available, and for good reasons ;) But, I will try to see if I can get confirmation from one of my buddies who works for Polk. For now, based on my conversations with various industry professionals, Sonata fleet units have been reduced since the purposeful program ended, while Fusions went up.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Didn't happen, of course and now even the renamed Taurus which was promised for last month, is still not here. Promises come from the sales depts., real cars are what the bean counters allow to be built.

    I thought the new (2008?) Taurus (nee Five Hundred) was supposed to get the 3.5-liter V6. No? I though I also read where FoMoCo's bean counters were going to be shoved into the background for a change. No?
    Boz
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    "I think the Edge is essentially the Fusion wagon. "

    Yes true, but the 4-cyl is borderline for mpg. The V-6 just uses way too much fuel, and I require a stick shift. I am also not interested in the whole crossover thing - just a regular wagon with all the advantages of a sedan, but more room.

    ditto. But I know I am not typical and I would say others on this forum, just by the fact that they are here, are not typical either.

    I am less excited about added vehicle height and center of gravity, reduced maneuverability, and harder entry and exit for children.
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