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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    I am confused...what is it that makes the Accord the best handler? Is it the 64.6 vs. 64.2 mph in the slolom??? To me handling is as much about feel as it is about a teeny tiny difference like that in performance. To me, the Accord steering is was just too light, because of this it lacks the right feel (for me).

    Quoted for agreement. Numbers are only a part of how a car handles to me. The only way I can fairly judge handling is getting some time behind the wheel and putting it through it's paces myself, and NOT by what some editor at a car magazine says.

    Having said that, is the Accord the better handler IMO? No. Not compared to the Mazda6 and Fusion. The 6/Fusion felt more stable in the twisties, and didn't lean nearly as much as the Accord (as well as the Legacy) did.

    Again, this is all MHO. :) Does it make the 6 and Fusion the best handlers out there? To me, yes. To anyone else, I hope not!
  • thenebeanthenebean Posts: 1,124
    i agree as well. a lot of these things are subjective, and everyone has a different opinion of what good handling is. to say that honda is the better handler just because edmunds says so is just plain silly. for all we know, someone else could have said that the fusion was the better handler over the accord. what makes one magazine review more believable than the other? nothing. its all in what each individual finds to suit their needs.

    to sit here and say one car is better because of one review in one magazine is just plain ludicrous!

    my two cents at least...

    -thene :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The 6/Fusion felt more stable in the twisties, and didn't lean nearly as much as the Accord (as well as the Legacy) did.

    That is another good point...a higher speed through the slolom, but with more body leaning/rolling, does not a better handler make (IMO).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I don't know, the bottom line is about the numbers, I think higher slalom speeds/lower lap times mean better performance. That doesn't make for a more rewarding driving experience however.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    ...substantiated by 'full throttle' noise levels (dbs) which is higher (by a significant amount) in the DT (77 or 78db, if I recall correctly) than anything else in this class. And before you look up another V6 that tests out at say 75 and you think 'competitive though not at the top of the mountain' do some research on the decibel scale.

    Noise inside the car is also affected by the amount of sound insulation, so this measurement may or may not tell you which engine is louder.

    You need to do some research on human hearing, not just the Db scale. Percieved loundness that you sense is a logarithmic function just like the Db scale...so, no 3 Db really is not much of a difference. You can find web sites that will let you hear this.

    Vibrations can be affected by things other than the engine itself as well.

    Just to clarify, I am just trying to keep thing factual. I am not on either side of the V6 engine refinement argument...I don't even own one, I have a 4 cyl.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Well, back when they tested the Mazda6, it's number was 64.9 mph in this slolom test :P ;) . And the Accord (which has not changed, right?) was an also-ran beating only the Malibu and the Sonata.

    2003-2004 Family Sedan Comparison Test
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    All this talk about "best handler" leads me to ask, is the Accord the best handler (in C/D's view) of the cars they recently compared to the Accord, or of all family sedans?

    I ask this because... what about the Mazda6? It is an exceptional handler for a family sedan. It's also IMO perhaps the best-looking of the current family sedans, even though the design is nearly five years old. And it's a terrific value right now, especially the Special Value Edition that starts at about $20k MSRP, but can be had in my town with no haggling for $16,500 (so it might be had for even less with some negotiating). It is comparable in equipment to the Sonata SE I4, with 17" alloys, ground effects, blacked-out lamps, power seat, leather wheel/shifter, CD changer, and a sport cloth interior. About the only major thing it doesn't have that the Sonata does is ESC. But you get best in class (?) handling, a nicely-styled interior with quality materials, and a sporty exterior (at least for a family car). If I were buying a car right now, it would be on my list (especially with my Ford supplier discount and a $500-off-best-offer coupon I have for a local dealer).
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well, of course, things like better insulation and engine isolation can make a difference in loudness and vibration. Given that and from your comments, I guess your contention must be then that Ford, for some reason, does a poorer job in this and therefore the DT is really every bit as smooth and quiet as what's in some of these other cars? Horse puckey! Decibels are a measure of sound energy and increase logarithimically with value but is the only measure I've ever seen of how loud any car actually is. As I said earlier, a test drive by almost anybody will certainly confirm the whole refinement issue, or if you don't choose to believe that, about any comparison/road test of any Ford vehicle (3.0 DT equipped) will usually make the same comments.

    And lest you Ford guys think this is all about 'bashing', you shouldn't take it as such, the engine issues are a simple comment that does have some historical and current basis in fact and a commentary on that particular manufacturer's continued problems building a better car. Fix the engine and fix the car, IMO, everybody is better off (including this country's (and Mexico's) economy and the carbuyer benefits from having yet another good choice. Or put another way, put the Hyundai 3.3 liter in the Fusion and then you Fusionados/6ixers would really have something to talk about!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Given that and from your comments, I guess your contention must be then that Ford, for some reason, does a poorer job in this and therefore the DT is really every bit as smooth and quiet as what's in some of these other cars?

    No, I have no idea if that is the case or not. My contentions are exactly what I posted and nothing more:

    1. There may potentially be other factors, besides the engine itself, that can affect measured noise level inside the cabin.

    2. 3 Db is not much of a difference.

    3. Vibrations can be affected by things other than the engine itself as well.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    The fact is the Fusion at idle is every bit as quiet as a Honda or Camry in 4cyl or V6 form. Granted, put the pedal down and the 3.0 comes to life and does growl a bit more. But 3db is NOT that much more. I ride in my friends 05 Honda Accord 4cyl and I cannot believe you folks here that claim it sounds smooth???? When he trounces the pedal it makes all kinds of racket. Even with the radio going, you cannot hear the radio. Perspective, and opinion are rampant. The Duratec 3.0 is a proven, reliable and capable engine. And does compete in this class. Finishing at most .8 seconds behind other V6's in this class. I'm sure most won't notice .8 seconds.. nor care. Since they will end up paying thousands less for a comparably equipped vehicle.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    At my younger daughters soccer practice I ran into a guy who for a living modifies vehicles. He said he has an 07 Milan Premier V6 AWD. He put on true dual exhaust, an intake, chipped it, 18" performance wheels/tires, tinted windows, spoiler. He claimed this car is outputting about 275HP. He is still under the price of a V6 Camry!!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    He put on true dual exhaust - not very likely if he is still emissions legal

    an intake - providing the sound you are going fast without actually going fast

    chipped it - gotta lose the pesky speed limiter

    18" performance wheels/tires - because nothing helps handling and acceleration like super heavy wheels and tires

    tinted windows, spoiler - at least 50 hp right there

    He claimed this car is outputting about 275HP. - using recreational pharmaceuticals (driver, not car)

    I am all for modifying vehicles, but about the only thing on that list that could do much is the chip, and I don't see that much tuning left in the computer for the chip to do that on its own.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    There is no way he's getting 275 hp, but saying that an intake and exhaust won't give you performance gains is simply wrong. In fact, that will give you more power by itself than you can get from a re-flash or chip upgrade. And there's no reason why adding a true dual exhaust (if true) would impact emissions.

    After all an engine is just an air pump and the more air you can get in and out the more power you can make. I figure the dual exhaust and intake are worth 20 hp, tops with the chip/reflash adding another 10-15 max (and probably requiring premium fuel).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    but saying that an intake and exhaust won't give you performance gains is simply wrong. In fact, that will give you more power by itself than you can get from a re-flash or chip upgrade.

    I am not saying there are no gains there, I am saying there is more noise than power. Also, you need to look at the existing system, if you were replacing a straw with a sewer pipe, that might be something, but its not like the system isn't relatively free flowing in factory trim.

    I think you would have to have a pretty crummy exhaust to get 20 hp out of replacing it and if the intake is a ram air, it only works when you are forcing air through it at a high enough velocity, and if it is a cone filter, its not really buying you anything but noise.

    Chips can bump ignition (or valve timing) timing and re-tune fuel maps to provide better performance at the expense of fuel economy and emissions. I agree that it probably requires premium fuel. Chips aren't as helpful as stand alone items, they are more to tune the car to other mods.

    And there's no reason why adding a true dual exhaust (if true) would impact emissions.

    It depends where you are located, if you are in a CARB state you must have an exemption sticker stating that the component is certified as a factory replacement part. In theory, this is an EPA requirement everywhere, its just CARB states that police it. I guess its possible that he could have true dual manifold back exhausts with each exhaust having a second cat, but I doubt it.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    Why do all that work? Buy the Camry with the 2GR and enjoy the same if not more power and get 30 MPG.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I would like to know what's the resale price for that "275HP Milan" vs. a plain Jane Camry V6.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Intake mods also decrease fuel economy.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Also how much does it cost a "paying" customer to do what he did.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I would like to know what's the resale price for that "275HP Milan" vs. a plain Jane Camry V6.

    If selling the car as a whole, I would start with the vehicle value and subtract the cost of the mods. Most modified vehicles I have had experience with were "parted out" prior to being sold, where they were basically returned to stock and the performance parts were sold separately.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Why do all that work? Buy the Camry with the 2GR and enjoy the same if not more power and get 30 MPG.

    Because you would be driving a Camry :P
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    This seems to verify that 60 mph slalom speed you posted for the Accord. I'm not sure how Edmunds was able to suddenly squeeze more out of the Accord. Was one an I4 and the others V6s? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Factory intake and exhaust systems are tuned for less noise and lower cost. Adding a cold air intake and a true dual exhaust can significantly increase the airflow into and out of the engine and if you understand anything about internal combustion engines you know that's the secret to more power. A cold air intake alone can easily add 10 hp. And production vehicles routinely add 5 hp with dual exhausts. So 20 hp from that setup is more than reasonable.

    I'm not advocating the changes that were made or the 275 hp claim. I'm only disputing some of your claims to the contrary.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Intake mods also decrease fuel economy

    Absolutely not true. Everything else being equal a less restrictive intake and exhaust can actually improve fuel economy.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I would rather be driving a bone stock Camry V6 than a "pimped" out Milan that has less power and gets less FE. The Milan isn't a bad car, but as is usual with Ford, it comes with an uninspiring powertrain.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    If you are letting in more air (cold air intake), you are letting in more dirt also (tests have been done to prove this). If the exhaust is less restrictive, you may gain (very little) hp, but you will loose torque at the same rate (back pressure is needed for torque). The only way a "chip" will do any good at all, is if the engine computer was severely de-tuned in the first place, and then you are probably killing your gas mileage. People will make all sorts of claims to sell their products. ;) Let's see this hot rod Milan's dyno test sheet.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Thanks... I always frequent Edmunds' forums, but am guilty of not reading their own comparisons. When they are typically redundant with the magazines I take, I don't see the point. I've never seen the Fusion come in last place though, I must admit.

    I hope I didn't come off as snobby in my post, I just re-read it and realized how it sounded. It wasn't intended! :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The fact is the Fusion at idle is every bit as quiet as a Honda or Camry in 4cyl or V6 form. Granted, put the pedal down and the 3.0 comes to life and does growl a bit more. But 3db is NOT that much more.

    If it is 3 db louder, then it isn't every bit as quiet as the Camry or Accord, is it? A little contradictory.

    The Duratec 3.0 is a proven, reliable and capable engine. And does compete in this class. Finishing at most .8 seconds behind other V6's in this class. I'm sure most won't notice .8 seconds.. nor care. Since they will end up paying thousands less for a comparably equipped vehicle.

    In the case of engine power, you pay less and get less with the Fusion V6. I doubt 40 horsepower is a deal killer for everyone, but for some, it just might be.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The average motorcycle that puts on a new filter(which lets in more dirt as well, as was noted in a past post) - and a unrestricted exhaust typically gains 15-20% more power.

    I can easily see a car gaining 20-30hp from those mods. Remember, they want them to pass smog and the easiest way to do that is to restrict it so that it's barely running at idle.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    to sit here and say one car is better because of one review in one magazine is just plain ludicrous!

    Ludicrous, nice word. The V6 Accord is regarded as the #1 V6 sedan by a lot more than just "one magazine". Who's word am I supposed to take as truthful? Yours, I would rather take Edmunds word on it, thanks anyway. But the fact remains that my V6 Accord will go around a corner as fast, or faster than the V6 Fusion. I don't spend my entire day seeing how fast my car will go around each corner though, so I would like a nice ride too. Which is another thing the Accord is better at.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Wrong. You can't put more air through and burn more gas and get more hp at the same time increasing fuel economy. Hence the reason a lot of turbos tank in the fuel economy department.
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