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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The Legacy sold only 30k units last year, the Mazda6 35k.

    I had wondered about the comment some one had made implying that the Legacy was a much bigger seller than the Mazda6. That did not sound right to me, I had thought both were pretty minor players and probably about equal in terms of sales numbers. But then I found this:

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC

    which I had thought showed 86,000+ for the Legacy, but now I see that figure includes the Outback. In fact, assuming your figure is correct, the Outback accounts for the majority of that 86,000.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Yes, I used the sales numbers widely reported at the start of January which showed "Legacy" sales at about 30k for 2009 and Mazda6 at about 35k. It does get confusing when the automakers lump different cars together, e.g. Toyota lumps Corolla and Matrix together, Hyundai lumps Genesis sedan and coupe (which are much different cars), and Subaru the Legacy and Outback. Based on that, Hyundai would be within its rights to lump the Sonata and Sonata-based Santa Fe together. :P I wonder if Honda will lump the Accord and Crosstour sales together?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I wonder if Honda will lump the Accord and Crosstour sales together?

    Why not? In the old days were station wagon versions of models separated out in overall sales numbers? I believe the Taurus station wagon was included in all those record setting years Taurus was the best seller. I look at the Outback as basically a Legacy station wagon but I know it's SUV of the year or whatever. As far as your Santa Fe and Sonata having some cross usage just think of all the vehicles out there like that. Isn't the Honda CRV based on the Civic. Maybe we should count those together. I think it's a slippery slope and that's why the Santa Fe is called a SUV and the Sonata is called a sedan.

    It does get confusing though. How much content or how many similarties does it take to cross the line? I don't think anybody can really be definitive so we have to rely on the car companies to label their cars and kind of go from there.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    It does not really matter, but to me lumping Outback and Legacy together seems much different than lumping a conventional wagon version of a vehicle with the sedan.

    Why not Edge + Fusion + Milan? The Edge is the Fusion "wagon" isn't it? Also, isn't one of the CX vehicles basically the Mazda6 "wagon"?

    And why not add all the variations of the Malibu that GM made together?

    Not a midsize, but how about adding Jetta, Jetta wagon, Golf, (and maybe even Tiguan) all together? After all, I assume in the former version of the Mazda6, the sedan, wagon, and hatchback were all added together.

    It does all seem kind of arbitrary.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep why not.
    The Accord has the sedan and the coupe why not the wagon too.
    The Civic has the sedan and the wagon.
    The Mazda 3 has the sedan and the hatch-wagon.
    The Altima has the sedan and the coupe.
    The Camry had the sedan and the coupe.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Well, for the Crosstour Honda calls it the "Accord Crosstour" so I guess that answers our question. If they were going to separate it out they certainly wouldn't have called it Accord.

    Like I said, if the manufacturerers call it a SUV or CUV or CRV or whatever it indicates that they are not grouping the sales and that is good enough for me. Backy cited Matrix and Corolla being grouped. Well, I don't think Toyota(or Pontiac for the Vibe) ever designated them as being anything other than variations of the Corolla or passenger cars versus SUVs etc.

    Suburu labels the Outback as a SUV so that is good enough for me as it is apparent they aren't grouping sales together. However, anyone who follows cars knows that a popped up trunk and a couple inches of road clearance don't make that much difference in a vehicle. Same drivetrains, interiors, options, etc to me indicates pretty much a variation of the same vehicle.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,239
    IIRC the Outback used to be called the Legacy Outback and it was considered a wagon. Now they call it an SUV although to my eyes it still looks like a wagon. A decent looking wagon, but a wagon nonetheless.

    I'm not sure it Toyota ever marketed the Matrix as a Corolla Matrix but right now they do market the Solara as a Camry Solara.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Actually the Solara was always the Camry Solara and it's now out of production. Similarly the Matrix has always been the Corolla Matrix ever since it arrived.

    The Venza which replaced the Solara is not a Camry Venza.
  • It does not really matter, but to me lumping Outback and Legacy together seems much different than lumping a conventional wagon version of a vehicle with the sedan.

    Why not Edge + Fusion + Milan? The Edge is the Fusion "wagon" isn't it? Also, isn't one of the CX vehicles basically the Mazda6 "wagon"?


    Eh I kind of take offense to including some wanna-be big-wheeled annoying, poor handling psuedo-wagon in with the sedan. The old Legacy and the Legacy wagon can be together, the VW sedan/wagon can be together, but the Honda Aztec and the sedan are pretty different (by several hundred pounds), as are the FuLans and Edge. Some blooby looking wagon on stilts shouldn't count as the same category.

    Hmm ask me how I really feel or something :mad: ;) :sick:
  • GM announced this week that the MSRP on the 2010 Chevrolet Malibu will be cut dramatically late this winter. The huge glut of unsold Malibus clogging dealer lots across the nation has forced this move.

    Malibu's are currently selling at 10%-15% under MSRP and moving slowly. I4 Malibu's LT & LTZ's currently stickering for $25K to $28K will likely drop into the $22K to $25K range.

    Is GM getting the message?
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Wow, I didn't realize that the Malibu is more expensive than the Accord or Altima. I think GM lowered their inflated prices in late 2004 already...may be they didn't cut them enough?

    Invoice base Malibu LS----$21,890
    Invoice base Accord LX----$20,533
    Invoice base Altima 2.5S--$21,196

    I can understand that the Altima costs a little more than the Accord b/c of the Intelligent key and dual exhaust but I don't see any special extras in the Malibu.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Well, there's OnStar on the Malibu, and a 6AT (is that standard now?), but are those worth $1400 more than an Accord considering the Accord's historically high resale value? Apparently not!
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Only 4AT for the LS. I don't really count the OnStar b/c you need to pay after the first year and I don't think you will use that often for a brand new car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    OnStar is a navigation system (sort of) along with the emergency call feature, so it's very likely it will be used by owners in the first year. As for the emergency features... I suppose GM would assert that if you only use it once, it will more than pay for itself.

    You have to pay for the satellite radio fees on cars so equipped (e.g. Sonata) after the first year or so, so I suppose we should discount that feature on mid-sized cars also. ;)
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    Hmm, I was thinking it's more for the emergency services? Can you use at least the Nav feature after 1 year if you don't want to pay the fee?

    ...I check OnStar website, $200/year for safe& sound and $300/year if you want to add the Nav.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Don't know, maybe someone who has a GM car with OnStar can tell us.
  • xmechxmech Posts: 90
    Those OnStar commercials always scare me. Those cars always crash! ;)
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    lol

    Another cool feature is that they can unlock your car doors should you lock your keys inside. My in-laws have used that a couple of times. Not sure it is worth the cost though.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Suburu labels the Outback as a SUV so that is good enough for me as it is apparent they aren't grouping sales together.

    But they are lumped together. They were combined in the WJS list of cars with largest sales. There was a post that implied that the Subaru was a much bigger seller than the Mazda6 (which no longer has a wagon or hatch version in the US, btw), that claim appears to have been based on sales of Outback+Legacy.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Another cool feature is that they can unlock your car doors should you lock your keys inside.

    Let's see - would you rather call OnStar (if you didn't lock your cell phone in the car), identify yourself and wait several minutes for the satellite to unlock your door (assuming you have satellite coverage)

    OR

    punch in 5 numbers on Ford/Lincoln keypad and be on your way in 10 seconds?

    Also with OnStar you have to essentially buy an extra cell line. With Sync you use your existing phone and it makes a local 911 call. OnStar goes to a national number.

    And has everyone seen the new MyFord and MyLincoln interfaces? Wow. Just Wow. Blows away everything else out there including BMW, Audi and Mercedes.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/07/myford-touch-proves-that-the-shape-of-things-- to-come-is-awesome/
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    That assumes the person who locked the keys in the car remembers the 5 numbers. If they were capable of locking their keys in the car despite all the safeguards against that, it's possible they won't be able to remember 5 numbers. :sick:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    How about neither and instead have the VW system that makes it virtually impossible to accidentally lock your keys in the car, in the first place?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yes the new Occupant / Vehicle interfaces are state-of-the-art IMO. As I understand it they come basic, middle and loaded with content. This will be the next area of intense competition IMO. Cars are Cars are Cars now.
    Styling is very subjective.
    All makers are essentially on the same level in saftey equipment and protection capabilities.
    Engines and drivetrains are maxxed out for most in terms of power needs.
    Fuel efficiency can always be improved.
    Leather? Sunroof? Power Seats? Sales tools of the 90's.
    But everybody is going to be trying to attract new tech-savvy buyers with upscale hightech environments.

    Also the debut of this new set of features at CES is a brilliant stroke of marketing.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I wonder when we'll hear more about the Microsoft-sourced system that Hyundai/Kia announced in 2008? No word yet re a specific application, even though some all-new 2010-11 models (Sonata, Tucson) are already out (or nearly so wrt Sonata).

    http://wardsauto.com/ar/hyundai_deal_microsoft/
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I wonder if that is the WSJ adding them together or if that is the way Suburu reports them.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    They had a new '11 Sorento at the CES and displayed the new system you're talking about. I read about it on autoblog.com and they had a video of it's operation....pretty slick. Called UVO, very close to SYNC. They said it will be available on the Sorento towards midyear.
  • xmechxmech Posts: 90
    Yes. I love the styling and features of my Fusion, but I would have loved the keyless entry and start like I saw demonstrated to me in the Nissan Sentra. (When gas was $5/gallon and,....) Convenient stuff!
  • "That assumes the person who locked the keys in the car remembers the 5 numbers. If they were capable of locking their keys in the car despite all the safeguards against that, it's possible they won't be able to remember 5 numbers"

    That is the weakest argument I think I have ever seen (above) Can't you just say that Ford built a darn good car for the money? Lets say that you make the code something you can remember like the first 5 numbers of your phone number :surprise: then I have keyless entry and a sync system that is hands free calling, changing radio stations ect. Hell it will even call 911 if your airbags are deployed and it doesn't cost 1 penny per month service. The 390 watt Sony stereo with the sirius radio isn't bad either. I would say go test drive a 2010 Fusion and you will know what I'm talking about.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I was thinking of someone specific when I made that comment--my DW. I love her, but someone who puts the keys (with remote) in her purse, puts the purse on the passenger seat, opens the driver's door, locks the doors, gets out of the car and closes the driver's door... habitually... I just wonder if she could remember five numbers. :sick:

    In case you haven't noticed, I've made many positive remarks about the Fusion over the years, and in fact recently noted I would own one now had I been able to find a good deal on a used one on Black Friday. But it was not to be.

    And yes, I've driven several Fusions and Milans, and I like how they drive. I'm not a big fan of superpowered audio systems in cars, since I can blow my ears out with ordinary systems set at fairly low volume if I want to, but I know those appeal to many buyers.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,239
    Actually the Solara was always the Camry Solara and it's now out of production. Similarly the Matrix has always been the Corolla Matrix ever since it arrived.

    The Venza which replaced the Solara is not a Camry Venza.


    I know the Solara was always the Camry Solara. I didn't say it wasn't. BTW Solara is still marketed though the latest version is '08.

    The Matrix is not marketed as the Corolla Matrix, at least not on Toyota's web site.

    Re: Venza replacing Camry Solara. How could a 5-door wagon replace a 2-door convertible? :confuse:
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