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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • a_j_na_j_n Posts: 1
    I have been told that the 2011 Sonata will be at the dealers on the east coast in the last week of January and can be sold by the middle of February.

    Fan of the new Sonata
  • gtgtcobragtgtcobra Posts: 259
    The Sonata is still built here in the USA and there is a HUGE quality and material difference between a car that's built here and one that's built in Germany. American built vehicles do NOT have the higher quality that the German built vehicles have. Also, the VW CC costs more and has a nicer looking exterior and interior than the cheaply built Sonata. You get what you pay for. I would NEVER buy an American built Hyundai. If I wanted to buy an American built vehicle I would by 100% American and NOT a Korean car that's built here in America. Period.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    So if Hyundai were to move the machines that put these parts together to Germany, then it'd be a high quality vehicle image
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    American built vehicles do NOT have the higher quality that the German built vehicles have.

    American built vehicles are also more likely to start when you're late for work. Having owned both a German-built VW & an Ohio-built Honda Accord, I know this for a fact. (BTW, the build quality of the Accord was, if anything, better than that of the VW, but I won't mention that.)

    But the German-built car does look better, sitting there in your driveway, while you're waiting for the flatbed truck to come & take it back to the dealer.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I guess when the next-generation Passat starts rolling off its US-based assembly line, it will suddenly be a low-quality vehicle also?

    Let us know if you find ANY car, mid-sized or not, that is "100% American". I don't know that such a vehicle exists anymore.

    Did you know... the 2011 Sonata was designed in California? Designed in the US, built in the US.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Isn't the CC a midsize sedan?

    Technically. But IMO this forum is for the more "bread-and-butter" midsize sedans (Passat, Altima), while their more-expensive brothers (CC, Maxima) are more of a "entry-level luxury" category, for lack of a better term.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    But the German-built car does look better, sitting there in your driveway, while you're waiting for the flatbed truck to come & take it back to the dealer.

    LOL! As true a statement as it is funny!! :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Sonata is still built here in the USA and there is a HUGE quality and material difference between a car that's built here and one that's built in Germany. American built vehicles do NOT have the higher quality that the German built vehicles have.

    Better not buy a BMW X5 then...
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    American built vehicles do NOT have the higher quality that the German built vehicles have. Also, the VW CC costs more and has a nicer looking exterior and interior than the cheaply built Sonata.

    Ok, so what about the American build X5's and X6's and soon to be X3's? Are they inferior to ones assembled in Germany?

    How about the VW's built in South America? What do you think about those?

    The fact that there is a assembly plant here for Hyundai in the US means nothing. The assembly process was designed in Korea. I'm willing to be most of the materials come from Korea anyway. I highly doubt a multi billion dollar company such as Hyundai would just make a half-baked plant in the largest auto market in the world. C'mon, get real....

    To be honest, I think the argument over what country a vehicle is built is very over blown. Is there REALLY a quality difference between a Japanese built Civic and an American built Accord?? I really don't think so.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    I would agree that the CC and Maxima can be a little on the high side of the non-luxury brand offerings. However consider the following.

    MSRP (Edmunds MSRP w/o destination charge) of a:

    2009 Passat Komfort w/ 4cyl 2.0T auto = $28300
    2009 CC Sport w/ 4cyl 2.0T auto = $28200
    2009 Camry XLE V6 auto = $28695
    2009 Accord EX-L V6 auto = $28705

    Which one should be classified as the "entry level luxury model"? The CC costs less! I realize that you can get a lot higher with the CC if you want to get in 4motion and all that but I think it can be very competitive with the rest of these at the lower price points.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Of course it'll be less, especially when you use the 2.0T 4-cylinder engine on the VW's versus the V-6 models. Let's compare apples to apples here.

    The Passat doesn't even offer a V6, so a base price of $28,300 is still a jump over the $26,830 of the (loaded without Nav) Accord EX-L. Add options to the Passat, and you can easily top the $30K barrier.

    My issue isn't with the Passat, it's with the CC. Put a V6 in the CC, and prices START at $39,310, a full $10K MORE than the Accord. You may not think it's an "entry level luxury model", but at that price, I wouldn't even be looking at a VW.

    Competitive? Not quite IMO...
  • gtgtcobragtgtcobra Posts: 259
    Look people, I've owned many different American, German, Japanese and Korean cars. Some have been American built and some have been German, Japanese and Korean built. I've noticed that the vehicles that had foreign names which were built in their homeland were all better quality vehicles. The ones which have foreign names that were built here in the USA were decent, but they didn't have the high quality that you got if it was built in Germany, Japan or Korea. My experience has been that the vehicles which are built in Germany, Japan and Korea are better built and they have less problems than the same exact vehicles which are built here in the USA. The fit and finish and the selection of materials is much better in the vehicles that are built in Germany, Japan and Korea. The American built cars with foreign names to them like Toyota, Hyundai, VW, Nissan, ect. are just not up to par like the same exact vehicles that are built in their homeland countries. Like I said before, if I wanted to buy a foreign vehicle that was built here in the USA with a foreign name on it, I would instead buy an American car like a Ford, GM or Chrysler.
  • Just as a bit of info, the Sonata car plant in Alabama was built with
    all state of the art technology at a cost of $1.4 billion. This supported
    by many engineering divisions here in the US. The sheet metal for the
    body is bought in the US and molded there on site. All the engine is
    bought in blocks of aluminum and 150 machines turns those chunks
    of metal into Hyundai USA Sonata engines. One of only a few car
    makers that actually build their own engine in the same facility.
    According to critics that plant in Alabama is one of the most
    sufisticated in the world. They also offer free tours of their place,
    check on Hyundai USA website there is a 10 minute video to watch.
    Interesting!!!

    I own one a 2009 SE V6, this is a quality vehicle, my 23rd vehicle
    since the early sixties. This car has everything in it that is not a
    special order add on.

    Now I'll say if you can find a midsize family sedan that has what the SE
    trim has, ( at anywhere near the price) with the V6, post here what it is
    and where it is and I'll highly consider it. I did a lot of homework before
    buying this thing. Consider the facts it has the largest interior volume
    in the class, the longest warranty in the business, and among the leaders
    in the MPG rating.
    Someone just mentioned about the power of a Sonata, well go test drive
    and I4, and that should give you a good idea. Some of this is opinion
    most is fact. Everyone has the choice to drive what they want this happens
    to be mine for all it's worth. HAPPY MOTORING
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    I wouldn't look at a CC with the v6 because of price but I would look at the CC I listed since it is cheaper than a comparable Passat. The point I'm trying to make is that the CC is not inherently a luxury model and is not priced that way in basic form and can be compared to other upoptioned midsized sedans.

    If you want to consider the VW CC a luxury car just because it is priced high in some forms that's your perogative. I don't consider VW or the CC to be a luxury brand or car but I agree that when optioned out it isn't in the same price range as most moderately priced midsized cars. The CC sport could be bought for around 26k street price last fall which isn't that bad.

    Even though I don't consider the Maxima as a luxury car either, it's base price of over 30k certainly puts it into a different league than what we usually talk about here I agree.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    My experience has been that the vehicles which are built in Germany, Japan and Korea are better built and they have less problems than the same exact vehicles which are built here in the USA.

    Which Korean cars did you own that were built both in Korea and the US? I ask this because I happen to know it would be very difficult (but not impossible) to have owned a Korean car that was made in Korea, with the same model also made in the US.

    Same question, for the German cars you've owned that were built both in Germany and in the US. Actually, I'd be interested to know which Japanese dual-sourced models you have experience with too. My limited experience with that, e.g. Civic, is that the US-made vehicle was of exceptional quality, with no perceived difference compared to the Japanese-sourced car.

    Actually I've owned several cars over the years from Asian manufacturers, but made in the US: a Honda Civic, two Nissan Sentras, a Mazda 626 (still own that), and a Sonata (still have it). I've also owned seven Japan-sourced cars: a Civic, two Corollas, a 626, an MPV, a Galant, and a Celica. I didn't notice any significant different in quality amongst these different vehicles, based on origin. Actually the most unreliable of them was one of the Corollas. But all were relatively trouble-free, and with quality fit and finish. As someone else pointed out, many of the parts for US-made cars with foreign brands come from overseas. The designs are the same, with minor modifications for different markets e.g. folding vs. non-folding mirrors or more airbags. Most of the assembly these days is done with robots--which don't vary in quality based on the country they are sitting in.
  • gtgtcobragtgtcobra Posts: 259
    I've owned a Korean built 97 Accent S -------- excellent car. It was too small for me and I traded it in for my 97 Elantra station wagon at 12,500 miles during the 8th month of ownership.

    I've owned a Korean built 97 Elantra station wagon ------------ excellent car (87,000 miles put on it without any repairs except tires. Still had original brakes & original timing belt on it.)

    I've owned a Korean built Santa Fe LX ----------- excellent car (161,250 miles put on it without any problems)

    I've owned a US built 97 Camry CE -------- This car had fit & finish quality problems, BUT 52,000 miles put on it. But no mechanical problems)

    I've owned a Japanese built 82 Celica GT -------- excellent car (180,000+ miles put on it.) NEVER had any fit & finish or mechanical problems with this car.

    I've owned a Japanese built 85 Civic S ---- excellent car (77,000 miles put on it.) NEVER had any problems with this car. Car got hit and totaled in an accident.

    I've owned a German built 74 VW Beetle ----- excellent car. Purchased used and owned it 4 years. Sold it for the price that I paid for it ($1,550.00) when it had 90,000 miles on it.

    I've owned a USA Pennsylvania built 81 VW Rabbit Diesel ---- HORRIBLE HORRIBLE car. Many mechanical and fit and finish quality problems with this car. Piece of $hit. Repair bills UP THE A$SS with this car. I purchased my Japanese built 85 Civic S after I sold this car. It was the best thing that I ever did.

    I currently own a brand new US Kentucky built 2010 Camry LE ---- This car is too new so far to know whether or not it will have any mechanical problems or any fit and finish quality problems. Only time will tell.

    All the cars above have been purchased brand new for the exception of the 74 VW Beetle.

    The ONLY vehicles which I've had problems with were the ones which were built here in the USA.
    NONE of the vehicles which were built in Japan or Korea that I've owned which I listed above ever had any mechanical or fit and finish quality problems. That's why I believe that USA built cars under foreign badge names like Toyota, Hyundai, VW and Nissan are NOT built well. Most of them have fit and finish quality problems at the least.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,047
    If I get this correct you have owned 9 cars of which 3 were built in the US and one of those is too new to judge. So your large scope scientific study proves without a shadow of a doubt that foreign brand, home country built cars are absolutely always better than their US built brethern. Not just your opinion but stated emphatically as fact.

    That's a good one.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    You told us that "My experience has been that the vehicles which are built in Germany, Japan and Korea are better built and they have less problems than the same exact vehicles which are built here in the USA." But in fact, you don't have any experience with cars that are exactly the same, built both in the foreign country and USA. And the only US-built foreign brand car you've owned that you had any significant trouble with was an '81 Rabbit Diesel, almost 30 years ago. You also have zero experience with Nissan cars, and no experience with Korean cars built in the US.

    So your statements re your direct experience with relative quality are not very credible.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    . . . not to mention the fact that very few of the cars listed are even remotely comparable to anything their manufacturers offer today. A '74 Beetle? Come on.
  • Only one comment, you are very negative about US built cars< why did
    you buy a US made 2010 Camry, you may have shot yourself in the foot!

    Sorry, this is a second comment, how do fit and finish issues develope
    along the way, I think that refers to when it is built, if I have an issue of
    quality I just won't buy it. I have a 2002 Mazda 626 built here over 150K
    miles no trouble at all, the only issue I have with it is, I can,t seem to
    wear it out or get rid of it.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    I've owned a USA Pennsylvania built 81 VW Rabbit Diesel ---- HORRIBLE HORRIBLE car.

    And I owned a gasoline Rabbit, built a couple of years earlier in Germany, that was at least as bad as yours. The Rabbit, wherever it was manufactured, was a nightmare to own. I thought everyone knew that by now.

    On the other hand, my experience with Honda goes back to the mid-70s. My Ohio-built Accord was a winner. We kept it for almost 12 years - only got rid of it because we were in the mood for something new - & it was rock-solid & trouble-free right up to the end.

    Probably the worst Japanese car that we owned was a Nissan Stanza (precursor to today's Altima) that was built in the Home Islands. Really not a bad car -- just not as good as the Honda.

    At the end of the day, the only conclusion that you can draw is that some cars turn out to be better than others.

    One more thing: given the sky-high wage levels in Germany - the German auto worker is the world's best paid - & the strength of the euro vs. the dollar, you shouldn't expect to see many more German-built VWs shipped to the U.S. It just isn't possible to make money building cars in the Fatherland. loading them onto boats for the trip across the Atlantic & then selling them for no more than $30K. Think about it.

    I predict that within 3 to 4 years, anyone who really wants a German car that's actually built in Germany will have to pony up a minimum of $50K for a 5-series Bimmer or an E-Class Mercedes. All of the lower-priced German cars will be manufactured outside of Germany - if not in the U.S. or Mexico, then in one of the former Soviet-bloc countries.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I would instead buy an American car like a Ford, GM or Chrysler.
    'American' Cos. but NOT necessarily American cars - unless, of course Canada and/or Mexico magically have been annexed. If you consider the economic impact of spending your hard earned $ on things like Mexican made Fusions, Canadian made GM and Chrysler products etc etc. you are likely doing more for this country spending it on things like Camcordimas and/or Sonatas.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    I predict that within 3 to 4 years, anyone who really wants a German car that's actually built in Germany will have to pony up a minimum of $50K for a 5-series Bimmer or an E-Class Mercedes.

    Possible. MB has already given some indications that the next C-class will be built in Alabama alongside the ML.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Very true; local news here in Birmingham has had the story in the few months.

    Local News Link to MB C-Class
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hey folks - this isn't a direct midsize question, but it would apply to the Sonata if what my girlfriend is being told is true; I suspect it isn't.

    She has a Santa Fe with a moonroof, which leaks in the car wash. She bought it used, but still has the 5/60k warranty (its a 2007 with 26k miles on it). The dealer looked at it once under warranty and came up with nothing. Now she's carrying it back to have some other things done (a squeaky seat, programming the locks) as well as having the roof looked at; now they are telling her, and I quote:

    "Water leaks are only covered under the first 12 months or 12k miles."

    I've told her that when she goes by today to ask them to show her those exclusionary terms on paper. It sounds like a load of hooey to me. On brakes or another normal wear item I can see that being the case; this isn't a normal item like that.

    Any other Hyundai owners care to chime in? The Santa Fe boards are fairly quiet so I was hoping to get an answer rather swiftly in here, since she has a lunchtime appointment at the dealer (Tameron Hyundai in Hoover, AL). Since it would apply to any Hyundai with a leak, I figured I could get by with it. :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    If I were her I'd either take it to another dealer or up the chain at that dealer. A water leak caused by a defect should be covered under warranty. And, what else would cause a water leak in a relatively new car? Is this dealer saying that is NORMAL for a 2007 Santa Fe????
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    My thoughts exactly. If we were talking about a rear wiper flaw, I could see them crying foul over the car wash, but we're not.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    If you consider the economic impact of spending your hard earned $ on things like Mexican made Fusions, Canadian made GM and Chrysler products etc etc. you are likely doing more for this country spending it on things like Camcordimas and/or Sonatas.

    I hope we do not go back to that argument again.... :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    We have a News & Views thread that can handle that topic.
  • The Hyundai plant is different & very high tech. The history chanel had a feature on the Alabama plant. It is one of the most automated plants in the world. And the accurate the cars have been built the more they can automate. I bought a 2006 Sonata in late 2005. I have 150,000 miles and have had ZERO problems with the car. I do change the oil on average every 4,000 miles. But as for quality it has been super!
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