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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    ...maybe you could just open the door?

    Like the carload of people who died when accelerator was stuck, because non of them apparently thought of shifting to neutral, have people died because they did not think of opening the door to get out of a car in water? (I believe that another recommended option is to lean back and kick out the windshield)

    Also in many cars, might folding the rear seats down and crawling out through the trunk work, before the car is submerged and without waiting for pressure to equalize?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Using the same exact car for US and European markets hasn't been too successful from any automaker.

    I beg to differ.

    Mazda's whole lineup is almost the same all around the world, with the 2nd gen Mazda6 the acceptions. The Mazda3, Mazda5, CX-7, MX-5 and soon to be Mazda2 are all mulit-award winning vehicles distributed world wide. The CX-9 is offered in a few global markets as well.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    You're right about the I-Passes, I have three for several years now. I was referring to when I first started driving the toll roads which was 30 years ago.....way before I-Pass. But there are a lot of people from out-of-state without I-Passes that try to negotiate the Illinois toll roads and I'm sure they are glad they have power windows, especially when they are not used to paying tolls.

    I think we've beat the power windows thing to death....back to topic.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    A reminder that this is about mid-sized sedans and what I was talking about was mid-sized sedans--note the examples I used. Trying to stay a little on topic, dontchaknow. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Up until 2 years ago, Americans looked at most small cars as cheap transportation. But that's no longer the case.

    I disagree. I still think most Americans look at small cars as "economy" cars, not feature-filled luxo-cars. They expect small cars to be lower priced than larger cars. "Hey, it's smaller than a Fusion, it should cost less!" Exceptions are small sporty cars that can command a premium due to their performance, and small cars with premium brands. But the typical buyer of a Focus/Cobalt/Aveo/Corolla/Civic/Elantra/Accent/Forte/Versa/Sentra etc. is looking first and foremost for economical transportation, IMO.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    But there are a lot of people from out-of-state without I-Passes that try to negotiate the Illinois toll roads and I'm sure they are glad they have power windows, especially when they are not used to paying tolls.

    FWIW, I believe that E-ZPass, which is pretty much the standard electronic toll payment system in the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic states, can be used on at least some Illinois toll roads.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    This is off-topic, and I apologize for that, but you are correct that i-PASS & E-ZPass are for the most part cross-compatible.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    As gas prices go up, more people are looking to downsize their current vehicles for better fuel economy. But they still want the features they have in their current vehicle. That's not to say everyone who buys a Fiesta or Focus wants leather and Navigation. But it means that there are a significant number of buyers who do want that now whereas there were almost none a couple of years ago.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    I disagree. I still think most Americans look at small cars as "economy" cars, not feature-filled luxo-cars. They expect small cars to be lower priced than larger cars. "Hey, it's smaller than a Fusion, it should cost less!" Exceptions are small sporty cars that can command a premium due to their performance, and small cars with premium brands. But the typical buyer of a Focus/Cobalt/Aveo/Corolla/Civic/Elantra/Accent/Forte/Versa/Sentra etc. is looking first and foremost for economical transportation, IMO.

    This also proves (once again) that Americans are still in the stone age when thinking about cars. This goes along with a few other myths:
    - Toyota's are bulletproof and are more reliable than the sun
    - Automobiles from the D3 are far inferior to imports
    - Diesel cars are loud and they stink

    We need permanent $4+/gallon gas prices and/or gas taxes to get Americans to get out of their old-school thinking and step into the 21st century. Time to get them out of their dinosaur SUV's, and convince them that buying a well-optioned small car is in fact a WISE decision, and not just buying for "economy".
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    When you can get 35 mpg from a mid-sized sedan like the Fusion or Sonata, or even more for a hybrid version, what is the value of "downsizing for fuel economy" when most compacts don't get appreciably better fuel economy? Unless.. the compact costs less?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    I agree. Some people are downsizing from larger vehicles to midsize vehicles. I have an Infiniti QX4 suv which is going on 8 years with no, and I mean not one, service/repair visit other than routine scheduled maint. I would love to have a G37(midsize albeit a little on the high price side) but I don't need over 300hp and the associated mpg hit that it entails and I also don't want to pay that much. I just read where they are going to introduce a G25 version with a small V6 probably around 220hp or so that should get substantially better mpg and would probably cost about $4k less than the G37. So I could get into an entry luxury car for not much more, if any, than a decked out Camcord, etc. would cost.

    Not saying I would definitely buy it but it kind of goes with the argument that many people want to downsize but still want the amenities they are use to.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    A reminder that this is about mid-sized sedans and what I was talking about was mid-sized sedans--note the examples I used.

    Pot calling the kettle black are we? Should I jump down your throat for mentioning the Escort? hmmm....

    You should not have used a blanked statement encompassing all manufacturers not being successful using the global approach. :P
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    So, what makes a Luxury car a Luxury car? Compare a loaded Fusion with a Lexus ES, what does the Lexus offer that the Fusion doesn't? A Smart Key system? I have been in a few Lexus, and I really don't see an advantage of one over the other, other than a name.

    My Sport is as, if not more, quiet than a Lexus, it has a very nice ride, good handling, nice leather for the seating, Sync, which you don't get in a Lexus, plenty of power, plenty of room, entry keypad in case you left your keys in the trunk. I did that with the smart key once, would not release the trunk or doors. Thankfully my wife had her key.

    I really don't see the reason to spend an extra $6 - $10K for a name. The ES is just a fancied up Camry, which I have owned, and got rid of for the Fusion, which was a big upgrade for me. The only difference between the Camry and ES is the ES is made in Japan, the Camry in Kentucky. So what qualifies a car to be "luxury" other than gimmicks and the price?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    The real world fuel economy advantages of a smaller car is more like 4-8 mpg using combined figures (nobody drives 100% highway). It also makes people feel better about themselves regardless of the actual $$$ savings. Some people also just like smaller cars and until now have not been able to get one with decent equipment - at least not from Ford.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The ES is just a fancied up Camry, which I have owned, and got rid of for the Fusion, which was a big upgrade for me. The only difference between the Camry and ES is the ES is made in Japan, the Camry in Kentucky. So what qualifies a car to be "luxury" other than gimmicks and the price?

    I do not agree. The Lexus ES and Toyota Camry are very very different. Yes, they share a platform and engine, but, the quality and fit and finish are far superior in the Lexus. I do not have a spec sheet handy, but, the Lexus does come with a lot more features then the Camry.

    If you do not think it is worth spending the extra $6-$10 grand, then that's ok. I will side with you on that one.

    Honestly, there is a far greater difference between a Lexus and a Toyota then there is between a Honda and Acura. Just my .02
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    Taking a ride in a Lexus ES and saying you didn't notice any difference is like saying "I rode in a Bentley but didn't notice any difference with my Buick". I think you have to spend some time in a car before you really pick up on all the differences. I'll give a quick comparison between my Mazda6 and Infiniti QX4.

    Buying Experience: Much nicer with the Infiniti.
    Warranty: 4 Infiniti vs. 3yrs Mazda btb, 6yr/70k pwrtrn vs. 5yr/60k
    Service Exp: Very pleasant, always offer loaners, internet, ice cream, doughnuts, soft drinks.(Go ahead and have fun with that one)
    Vehicle itself: Much quieter, tighter tolerances, feels a lot more substantial due to sound deadening etc., nicer leather, better paint job, amentities.

    I'm not bashing any midsize car that this forum discusses. I think they are all good cars, some better than others. Now I never mentioned the Lexus ES did I? I was talking about a future Infiniti called the G25 which would probably come in around 29k which is only about 3-4k more than your Fusion Sport. Tack on free loaners and a another years warranty to yours and you're probably looking at 2-3k more. Add NAV to yours and there would be very little diffence in price. Heck, an Accord EX-L w/Nav V-6 auto MSRPs for around 32k. I'm talking around 30k for an Infiniti.

    You pretty much get what you pay for in this world. I'm not saying you don't pay a little extra just for that "prestige factor" but it isn't necessarily that much. When I bought the Infiniti I was actually trying to buy a Pathfinder and had no intention of buying an Infiniti. I couldn't get the Nissan dealer to deal so I said what the heck, the QX4 is the same thing, let's see what we can do. Got the Infiniti for less than I could get the Pathfinder for. The QX4 is basically an upgraded Pathfinder which you seem to think is no better than the Pathfinder. Wrong. The QX4 is a lot nicer than the Pathfinder. I drove them extensively before we bought.

    I'm not pushing luxury brands on this thread as it is a moderate price midsize family sedan thread. I'm just saying that sometimes the price differences in between non-luxury and luxury are not as great as some people make them out to be if you compare entry level luxury to decked out CamCords.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    That's where I'm at now myself. I had been looking in the entry level luxury segment but decided to give the midsize sedan another look. I was really hoping to find that right mix somewhere but nothing has really grabbed me yet.

    I'd like to spend under 30k. I'd like some power and performance but not at the expense of a nice ride, a quiet ride. In this segment the Honda Accord looks ok, but I'm concerned about what the reviews say about elevated road noise. That and it's rather common.

    I was considering the BMW 328xi, but now that I want to keep it under 30 I dont think that's doable? The G37 is very nice as well. I also like the Audi A4 but again probably priced out and I'd rather not get a base model.

    The new 2011 Sonata looks intriguing, but I dont know much about it other than some pretty rendered pics I've seen. The Mazda 6 and Nissan Altima I should probably look at as well. *sigh*

    So frustrating to be all over the place like this. I need to narrow it down to 2 or 3 at most.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Count me in with you in the same situation: wanting to go entry-lux but trying to keep the OTD price to $30K.

    Have you considered the Mazda6 or the Ford Fusion Sport? Both IMO are excellent choices for a midsize sedan with some entry-lux options for $30K...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you value power but still prefer comfort and quiet, the Accord might be too sporty for you. The Camry and current Sonata offer tops-in-class fuel economy, solid V6 power, and a quiet, comfortable ride. They aren't cars that are fun to drive, but they are good commuter cars with plenty of luxury or the price. You might could get a steal on a Sonata Limited V6 right now, with a new one about to debut. You could also check out the Hyundai Azera or lower-level Toyota Avalon.

    That said, I'd drive all the cars you mention if they fit your budget. Don't let reviews deter you from test driving a vehicle; form your own opinion. :)
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    Hah I was just at the Mazda site looking at the 6. I think I am adding that to my list yes. Sharp looking, nice features and seems like I can get out the door for under 30 nicely equipped.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    I think you're right about test driving. I really do want some of each, performance and luxury, which I understand comes at a premium but it's so subjective as to what feels sporty or how much road noise would bother you or what is "upscale". I'm coming from a 2001 4 cylinder Jetta that I use as my commuter, pretty much anything will be a jump in power and performance as well as luxury and amenities.

    My wife has the 2009 Honda CR-V and I like the interior of the Hondas, but before that our fun car was a 2004 Infiniti G35. So I know the pros and cons of both which I guess is why I'm all over the place!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    So I know the pros and cons of both which I guess is why I'm all over the place!

    Sounds like my parents when they were car shopping back in 2008. They had a Civic and wanted a second car. They didn't have a CLUE what they wanted. They drove everything from a Hyundai VeraCruz to an Accent 3-door, a Ford Taurus, Chevy Impala, a year-old Caddy DTS, the then-new Accord, a Nissan Versa assorted Scions, and ended up with a 2008 Taurus with leather and sync.

    It was quite entertaining to watch them whittle down their list.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    First, I didn't mention the Escort--someone else did, and I simply asked a question about that comment because I wasn't sure the European Escort was the same car as the US version.

    Second, my statement re global cars was fully visible and thus was not "blanked."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    The real world fuel economy advantages of a smaller car is more like 4-8 mpg using combined figures (nobody drives 100% highway).

    That's not my experience, with compacts and modern mid-sized sedans. I agree you can see that kind of difference between some subcompacts that are optimized for fuel economy, e.g. Yaris, and non-hybrid mid-sized sedans. But that is a huge difference in size and utility.

    And some folks do drive almost all highway, e.g. using a car for a long commute from rural areas. But I do urban driving almost all the time.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    First, I didn't mention the Escort--someone else did, and I simply asked a question about that comment because I wasn't sure the European Escort was the same car as the US version.

    Unbelieveable.....really..... if you feel so strongly about staying on topic, you should have gone to an Escort thread and asked that question. You should practice what you preach.

    If you feel so highly about not mentioning ANY other vehicles other then mid-sizers here then why are you not complaining about everyone else throwing their .02 in for their comments about non mid-sizers? Why just pick out mine?? My response about manufacturers being successful with globally produced cars was totally viable.....
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Please take a breath and calm down. I wasn't "picking" on you. I did suspect you misunderstood my post about global cars. I was trying to focus (no pun intended) on the mid-sized market, as per the examples I listed. It looked like you thought I was addressing the entire car market, which was not my intention.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    But that is a huge difference in size and utility.

    Not if all you use it for is daily commuting. I went from a Lincoln LS to a Fusion and I'd have no problem switching to a Focus or Fiesta. It's just me driving back and forth to work most of the time.

    And there are lots of folks who think a 5 mpg improvement is huge, even though the actual difference between a 25 mpg and 30 mpg vehicle is about $5/week for 300 miles (2 gallons).

    Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Well, if it's for daily commuting over any distance, that's highway driving, right? Where the current mid-sizers shine, esp. the I4s. For example, I got 37 mpg highway on the OLD Milan--not the current one with even better FE.

    And there is more to a commuter car than fuel economy. For me, for long-distance commuting, a smooth, quiet ride is important. I think a mid-sizer like the Fulan or Camry or Sonata would do much better in that respect than a small car like the Fiesta. Then there's the weekends. If you want one car that can handle a variety of needs, a mid-sizer is a really good choice, also some of the compact 5-door hatches and wagons with interior room that rivals some mid-sizers.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    In Atlanta there is no such thing as highway speeds and commuting. It's all stop and go or 30 mph, even on the interstates.

    But you're TOTALLY missing the point here. It's not what YOU want (or me for that fact). I guarantee you there are plenty of folks out there who want small cars with features and now Ford has options for them.
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