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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,996
    Are you saying that Toyota used cars depts. are selling them or are you really asking the question? I have no idea if they are or not but there have been many safety related recalls in the past from all makes and I never heard of a hold on trades or sales of used cars etc. I realize this one is somewhat different but the same laws probably apply.
  • Not sure why you think having a clutch would mean that there is not still a computer involved and in partial control of your car

    I can press a pedal and the drivetrain is disconnected from the wheels. I can also select what gear I want to be in, and the car can't change that.

    Neither of those cases are true for an automatic or psuedo-stick. If you want to downshift in a DSG, the car will check to make sure it's okay with you doing that. If your throttle is stuck wide open, its just going to keep going through the gears or not let you downshift. Full throttle in 1st and bumping the rev limiter is a lot easier to handle that full throttle in 4th or 5th.

    I really don't get the connection to the Toyota issue as the problems (sticky pedal and floor mats) are related to mechanical issues, according to the company

    If you believe that, I have an acquaintance with an aging bridge in a major metropolitan area I have been looking to unload at a fair price...
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Are you saying that Toyota used cars depts. are selling them or are you really asking the question?

    Asking.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Putting an automatic in neutral also disconnects the drive train from the wheels.

    I don't know enough to have any "beliefs", what I posted is what is a known fact...Toyota has indicated the problems are mechanical. I will say that I'm not jumping to the conclusion that they are either lying or stupid and there is no other explanation that I can think of that would lead to you knowing more than they do about these problems.

    I'd not count on this problem leading to a big increase in demand for clutches on new cars in the US. ;)
  • Putting an automatic in neutral also disconnects the drive train from the wheels.

    Allowing there is a mechanical connection between the shifter and the transmission...something going away quickly...and just about any car that has paddle shifters.

    I don't know enough to have any "beliefs", what I posted is what is a known fact...Toyota has indicated the problems are mechanical.

    True, I am just skeptical of it being a purely "mechanical" problem.

    I will say that I'm not jumping to the conclusion that they are either lying or stupid and there is no other explanation that I can think of that would lead to you knowing more than they do about these problems.

    Fair enough. It seems weird though that a supplier that has made a bagazilion of these mechanical assemblies for a number of OEMs and never noticed an issue in the field or all their DV testing. Given the way the handled this so far, I don't think skepticism is out of line.

    I'd not count on this problem leading to a big increase in demand for clutches on new cars in the US.

    I would concur with that statement as well. Just pointing out the differences. I also don't see people running back to mechanical fuel injection or carburetors.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    AFAIK any used car lot that has Toyota's which are under recall are not supposed to be selling them. However that was yesterday.

    The regulations and the law as I understand it is that sales have to stop as long as there is no approved course of action ( by NHTSA ) to remedy the recall issue. As of today it appears that the NHTSA did approve the remedy and it's in process of being shipped. It would appear that sales of all involved vehicles can resume legally.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,693
    i would think the 'fix' is supposed to be applied before the vehicles can be sold again.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,996
    I read in the paper(not saying it's correct) the supplier can make 1 million a year and Toyota has recalled over 4 million worldwide not counting future production. Unless they can get more manufacturing capacity for pedal assemblies or whatever, it is going to take them a long time to get to all those vehicles.

    My Tundra was recalled in November for spare tire assembly corrosion problems and I haven't even got a letter yet. Haven't moved, owned since new so I don't know what the holdup is. Could it be they've got a lot on their plate???
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Is there also movement away from a mechanical connection between the clutch pedal and the clutch?

    An example of a proxy control is the Valeo Clutch-by-Wire. The unit replaces the mechanical link between clutch and pedal with an electrical clutch actuator, an electric clutch pedal and an electronic control unit (ECU). A pedal sensor measures the position of the clutch pedal and transmits this information to the ECU which also receives information about car behavior. The ECU in turn controls the clutch actuator and depending upon the driver’s wishes, the system can not only correct driver mis-operations but offer complete clutch automation.

    http://www.cardesignonline.com/safety/pedal-box-design.php
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Servo-assisted clutches are common enough already. Mercedes built the first one in the 60s and several makers over the years have offered them. The current Hondas mostly use a similar arrangement as it allows for precise shifting without needing a cable or mechanical linkages(so there's a fraction of the wear on the fork and clutch)
  • colloquorcolloquor Posts: 482
    I would prefer a hydraulic-actuated clutch, as that's been the old stand-by for many European cars for a long time. It provides a much smoother clutch action than a cable-actuated system.
  • the system can not only correct driver mis-operations

    That is just creepy. I haven't seen this with a "true manual" yet, but it sounds creepy to me.
  • I would prefer a hydraulic-actuated clutch, as that's been the old stand-by for many European cars for a long time. It provides a much smoother clutch action than a cable-actuated system.

    It depends on the clutch. If you have a higher clamping force spring in the clutch, it takes more effort to engage that clutch, and if your friction material is more aggressive, it can feel grabby at the pedal. This is why the low powered vehicles will often have a cable actuated clutch and the high powered ones get the hydraulics. As with steering, you can hide things (good or bad) when you add the hydraulics.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    The fix? For what exactly?

    Why are the sudden accelerations still occurring even when the pedals are not involved? This sudden acceleration issue has been around for over 5 years now and has yet to be fixed.

    This so called "pedal" fix is not the heart of the problem.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Correct. The real issue is "drive by wire" or in this case, Electronic Throttle Control.

    It's not fixable without a redesign of the entire throttle and braking system back to the older semi-mechanical and mechanical technology. Good luck reselling any Toyota or Lexus with it in it when the ugly truth comes out.(essentially the last 4-5 years)

    And then anything by any of the other manufacturers as the public avoids the technology like the plague.

    Now, one good thing can be had out of this, though. You will be able to pick up a Toyota for next to nothing used that's affected by this. The solution will be to change your throttle and braking sensor(or the module) every 1-2 years as a consumable item. Note - manuals aren't affected as you can just put it in neutral the same as if you accidentally hit the resume on the cruise control. Oops - it's going faster. Half a second later it's under control.

    Another bonus for manual transmissions. :)
  • ta spend on the internet I've been researching cars I would like to buy next. Guess which one I'm falling for these last few days boys?

    The new Suzuki Kizashi. I was reading one of Suzuki's ads on the Kizashi yesterday at Safeway and Suzuki advertises they will be selling the "Kizashi nicely equipped for $21,200."

    Did I read that right?

    Industry whisper rumor has it that the Kizashi will be MSRP'ed at 17k to 18k for base models, which are actually fairly well equipped, and loaded models will run near 26k with every option.

    If true, that will probably mean actual pricing of 14.5k to 21k.

    Above is your comment mikemartin and it turns out that what you said is going to actually be pretty accurate in the real world. Man, I don't know about you but I just grew about $5,000 more interested in this car than I was before reading that ad.


    These posts are just cut and pastes from the 'Suzuki Kizashi' thread here on Edmunds. So I'll paste my next post, in which I go on and detail out per options what the price would be for the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi I would plunk hard-earned money down seriously. Here you all are.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • to iluvmysephia1's tastes, regarding possible purchase of a new 2010 Suzuki Kizashi . Here y'all go.

    I must be really interested in the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi because I just clicked on that ad and optioned-one out and priced-one out. For a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS in Vivid Red, FWD, 6-speed manual transmission, bluetooth, sunroof and 425-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo, it comes to $23,334. That's MSRP, with no dickering included. I'd want to dicker a tad for this car. In comparo, my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS rung up to about $22,200 after everything was added in, including putting the anti-theft alarm in and adding the prepaid maintenance package. Anyone else on to what I'm thinking here already about how this 2010 Suzuki Kizashi is pricing out? The '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is a sporty compact car, fitted out real close to how I would like a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi fitted for my wife and I. But the difference here and I find it remarkable, is that one can find a great deal on a midsize Kizashi from Suzuki right now. Suzuki is working hard to earn your business. And it appears to have earned it in several reviewers minds here on Edmunds. Reviews are coming in and they're nothing short of fantabulous. I'm starting ta think of reasons ta give my wife as to why we need a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi. Other than just wanting a new car. Sounds like this new Kizashi will send you all in to and out of the twisties with a thrill abandon.

    425-watt, 10-speaker Rockford-Fosgate premium AM / FM / CD /XM-capable audio system with MP3 playback. My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has a 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo. On this '10 Suzuki Kisashi GTS several of the options are very similar to my '08 Lancer GTS' included options. The one-touch power sunroof is on both cars, the RF stereo, foglights, etc. Wow, I like this Kizashi a lot. I'd get a Vivid Red one or a Metallic Silver one and be really happy with either one of those colors.

    Reviews are good...Edmunds gave it a very good review. The interior gets very good grades. The ride is tight and taut, but I am used to that with my sport-tuned 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I am not only used to a sport-tuned suspension but I think that I want that kind of build from now on. It pays off in the twisties and on the freeway, though over bumpy roads it can be kind of irritating. The 2.4L 180hp 4-cylinder apparently is providing these reviewers with ample power for city and highway driving. And I have now read one reviewer with the 6-speed manual tranny praise the shifter on their Kizashi, saying that it shifts easier than their Audi A4's shifter. Wow. I see no reason for a car of this size, more importantly the Kizashi's weight, that the 2.4L 180hp 4 wouldn't be enough power. This car would look great in Vivid Red or the silver that is shown on the Kizashi in my post above. More on this car later.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • Vivid Red.

    image
    Love those alloys!

    This is no time ta go tradin' a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in with only 48, 899 miles in, is it?

    Well, let's think about it for a while. What would the Phoenix Suzuki dealer low-ball or high-ball me on trade for my compact 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS? Would my wife want to just pop a hard one on my cheek if she saw these posts?

    Probably.

    We're about halfway paid off on the '08 Lancer GTS. It's probably worth just about what we owe on it, probably worth a titch less. The Phoenix Suzuki dealer would have to deal with that or I'll just get up and walk. I've learned to do that very quickly and easily. Maybe tomorrow or Wednesday I'll drive the extra 120 miles up to Phoenix just to talk to them. And test drive. The wife will not be in my camp at all.

    Unless, of course, I promise to buy her a 2011 Tata Nano in automatic transmission. She has expressed interest in getting a Nano when they come(if they come)to America. Just ta go pick up groceries. I kid you not. She likes the Tata Nano. She doesn't currently possess a driver's license. But that could change.

    If you can tell I've fallen for another automobile. It's called the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS in Vivid Red, foglights, Rockford Fosgate 425-watt stereo with 10-speakers(I think Suzuki is in cahoots with Mitsubishi, these options in the two cars' GTS packages are so close to each other it's scary!!)cloth seats, 10-way adjustable driver's seat, one-touch power sunroof, 180 hp FWD 2.4L 4-cyl. engine with a 6-speed manual transmission. Coming in at about $23,200 MSRP.

    If I get just the right wild hair tomorrow while we're shopping in Tucson or Wed. while we are both enjoying another day off I'll go up to Avondale and see if I can score myself(and my wife :P )a test drive...at least. I am such a car romantic. :shades:

    Over and out. I'll let ya know how serious Suzuki is about selling this new Kizashi. Something tells me they're gonna be very serious. Oh, if I can't find a red one I'll look for the Platinum Silver and see how much they want ta deal.

    Knowing Suzuki's current state I think I'll do just fine. It's getting this puck past my wife that'll take some serious Bobby Orr action. ;)

    I kid you not. I have read some reviews on this car that are really fantabulous and I love it's bodystyle. I also trust Suzuki's engineering capabilities. So much so that I trust the people's reviews of this car as being genuine. Talk to ya all later.

    My wife can tend to have a very sobering affect on my car shopping efforts...though.

    Like I say, when the tequila's all worn off, my wife is right there with me in the '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, we're in Tucson shopping mode and I start praising the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS in Vivid Red, I'll start learning how much traction this idea of mine is gonna have and hold. :surprise:

    I fell for this 2010 Suzuki Kizashi this weekend and so it has just begun. I can be patient. I can wait. But I do have 3 more days off from work and we are in a really good position to buy this car, if I can twist a favorable deal. And if the Avondale Suzuki dealer is possessing an eager selling mind. The spot Suzuki's in right now should bode well for a possible deal. What's 120 extra miles north in Arizona on I-10 in the midst of easy winter travelling, anyway boys.

    Wish me good fortune. She's gonna hit the frickin' roof when I ease this one in. ;)

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,996
    You seem quite in love with a car you've just read about and seen pictures of and that is so similar to what you have. Better not look at any pictures of the wive's sisters. ;)

    Seriously, the Kizashi is quite nice. Perfect no, but what car is? I haven't found one that hasn't got something you wouldn't want to change. I've sat in one but no test drive. Let us know what you think.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Nice car, but what's the rush? Why not give Suzuki a year (or more) to work out all the kinks? (That's assuming that Suzuki can sell enough cars during the next 12 months to stay in business.)

    As a matter of policy, I stay away from new models during the 1st year of production. Let a few thousand buyers cut ahead of you in line.

    It's not as if you're trying to squeeze a few more miles out of an early 90s Corsica.

    You say that you're in a good position to buy now, but a year from now you'll be in an even better position, with more equity in your current car & more money in the bank for a larger down payment.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,996
    We'll have our first opportunity to drive the new Sonata next week and we'll finally find out if the dynamics live up to its new styling.

    Above posted tonight from the reviewers at Autoblog.com. Looks like Hyundai is finally releasing to the mags/blogs for test drives. Should be interesting.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Looking at the equipment that is standard on the GLS for 2011 but was optional before, e.g. Bluetooth phone, telescopic wheel (not even available on the GLS before) with audio controls, chrome window moldings, metalgrain interior accents, trip computer, and DRLs (not available before), the price of the 2011 Sonata seems less than the 2010 car, at least in base form. Plus the 2011 has a six-speed tranny vs. five for 2010, and of course more power in the I4. Also the GLS with nav option, new for 2011.

    So pricing seems very reasonable, but... what's the car like?? I am surprised there was nothing in the March auto mags, or on Edmunds.com yet... unless of course Hyundai didn't make the car available to the press until just now.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,996
    See my previous post above. It appears that Hyundai is just starting to release cars to the press for reviews next week.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Yep, saw it. ;) So maybe I should have said, I am surprised Hyundai waited until now to let the US press drive the car, so they could put reviews in the March mags, to coincide with the debut. Better?
  • to test drive the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi today. I did look at the Royal Suzuki of Tucson website and they had no GTS models in stock. And Salazer Suzuki of Avondale, AZ, same burb of Phoenix that we bought our Lancer GTS in, had no GTS models.

    And the wife and I were busy in our little town for several hours then shopping and running errands in Tucson later in the day. No time for Suzuki nor their Kizashi.

    I did this very same thing about another Suzuki in late 2006. The SX-4 crossover. Basically talked it all out of my system in a matter of about a week with some of you all here on Edmunds, none of my friends had even heard of the SX-4 before. :blush: Occasionally I go buggy over a new model then just let it slowly die out of my system with the passage of a few weeks time. It's fun to get all excited and see where it takes me. :)

    I do love my Lancer GTS and I need to find out more about Suzuki and this car and test drive one later this year. I'll let the kinks get discovered first and see what the Japanese automaker does for a resolve, etc. I remain quite impressed by their new midsize offering, though. It has a lot of potential. The Company is very proud of the car.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I know what your saying, I did the same for the Dodge Avenger, the car looked so good on the internet, sounded good, etc. Then I went and looked at one, and found out what a piece of crap it was. It was so bad in fact that the rubber trim around the drivers rear window was hanging off. No wonder Chrysler is in such bad shape.
  • yep, that's what's in us car nuts. We get all excited about a particular model every once in a while. It's not a problem, only if you try and buy every one you flip out over. Or even every other one you fall for, eh?

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    It's fun to get all excited and see where it takes me.

    Nothing wrong with that. It's good, clean fun...& it's free.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    When I bought the Prius and the TCH only reason was high MPG. After driving them for 58K miles, and the poor handling, lack of acceleration, and just plain blah factor, I made the "mistake" of driving the Fusion Sport. Oh man what a difference, the drive was all it took for me to say, goodbye Toyota, hello Ford. I had looked and drove a lot of cars before buying a new one, and the Fusion Sport was the only one that impressed me handling wise that I could afford and was still practical for our needs.

    I spent a LOT of time going over it with my wife before deciding to purchase it too, so it wasn't a fall in love buy it now gotta have it thing either. Put a lot of thought into it, then bought it, and I am so glad I did!
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