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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    last time i checked camry is the #1 seller in america.

    You didn't check very recently. In January, Camry was only #7, behind two trucks and four cars: Accord, Altima, Corolla, Malibu. Camry (and maybe Corolla too) will probably slip much more in the ranking for February.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,713
    edited February 2010
    handles quite well for a $19,000-$25,000 midsize sedan.

    image

    If I bought one of these pups I would want the 6-speed manual. Which, BTW, is said to have a very smooth-operating clutch mechanism. One 2010 Suzuki Kizashi owner says his 2010 Suzuki Kizashi 6-sp.manual shifts better than the one on his Audi A3. Even.

    Suzuki has managed to build a car that just invites me to take a test drive and see if it can out-handle my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS through the twisties.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I thought ALL cars had knock sensors today. Just because it's tuned to run on 87 doesn't mean it can't knock due to bad gas or carbon deposits or some other problem. And you don't want to ruin the engine by letting it continue to knock.

    Some vehicles are optimized to run on 87 but have the logic to advance the timing to take advantage of higher octanes to get more performance. I guess you could call this "tuned for premium", but there are some vehicles that are optimized only for premium and therefore "require" premium fuel. I think there is an in between that is a slight compromise on max performance but offers a wider range of operation from 87-93 octane.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I thought ALL cars had knock sensors today.

    I didn't think so.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I guess it may not be the #1 selling car by the minute/second/nanosecond/picosecond, but if one looks at yearly totals it is.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I could be wrong, but I don't think Camry fell from being the number one selling car because a lot of Americans suddenly decided that they don't like the handling and/or suspension characteristics of the Camry. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why does one need handling?

    I have a hard time going from my Accord to my girlfriend's Santa Fe, because the Accord handles so much better. Less tippy, feels a lot more secure taking the curvy off-ramp, and is simply more fun to drive. I've never had a ticket or caused an accident, and tend to beat EPA raings for my cars (the OLD ratings, not the new ones) so I'm not a hot-rodder.

    Yes, my comparison is car to SUV, but it still demonstrates why I prefer a car with sharp handling; besides the obvious "better handling/sharper responses means better crash avoidance" argument. :)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    All I can find on it says "most" cars today have them. I'd be willing to bet all the major brands have them now.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    I have a hard time going from my Accord to my girlfriend's Santa Fe, because the Accord handles so much better. Less tippy, feels a lot more secure taking the curvy off-ramp, and is simply more fun to drive

    I'm sure you don't mean too hard of time but it does amuse to hear of so many people having such a hard time adjusting from one vehicle to another. I used to rent cars for business trips a lot(I mean almost weekly for years at a stretch) and got quite an assortment over the years. Either I am just one super adaptable driver or there is some exagerration going on here. One person on these forums even said they got nausea from the floaty ride of a Camry. Someone else said they could hardly adjust back to their Mazda6 after driving an Optima for a week. I have a Mazda6 and I don't have much trouble adjusting after driving my pickup let alone an Optima which handles in the middle of the pack in this class from what I've read.

    I think this great delta from the most cushy ride to the sharpest is a lot less than most people describe. Is there a difference? Sure, but it's not that of an Indy racer vs. a SUV. By the way, I also have a SUV and I find that taking the on/off ramps at around the posted speed is not a "tippy" affair at all.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Most is a bit tough to quantify, to know if your favorite car has them. I've never heard a manufacturer say premium optional. Although a number of them say regular optional.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I guess it may not be the #1 selling car by the minute/second/nanosecond/picosecond, but if one looks at yearly totals it is.

    Actually, by yearly (2010) totals the Camry is NOT the #1 selling car. For all of last year, different story. But that was last year (not minute/second/nanosecond).
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Actually, by yearly (2010) totals the Camry is NOT the #1 selling car. For all of last year, different story. But that was last year (not minute/second/nanosecond).

    You're micromeasuring, whether admitting it or not. Let's refer back to this conversation by the end of 2010 and see what the totals are.
  • Let's refer back to this conversation by the end of 2010 and see what the totals are.

    Yes, lets. It'll be VERY interesting to see if the Camry is even in the top-five for total vehicle sales for '10.

    Personally, I doubt it. Toyota's problems aren't going away anytime soon (considering they're still not even sure the acceleration problem is limited to the pedal/floor mats). From what I've seen/heard, along with talking to current Toyota owners, consumer confidence is shaky at best, and a fair amount of current owners will actually shop around for other makes/models, instead of going straight back to Toyota. I've heard some that flat-out refuses to buy another Toyota.

    The Camry may stay within the top-three for midsize sales, but IMO that's still a gamble The Accord is still selling well, the new Sonata, which IMO will re-introduce Hyundai to new customers that had shunned Hyundai before, even the Fusion, Altima and Malibu may benefit from Toyota's fall from grace.

    Unless Toyota dumps 'em into fleets (like Chevy with the Impala), I'm thinking there will be a new midsize sales leader for '10.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Yes, unless Honda stumbles, I expect we'll see the Accord back on top for 2010.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    From what I've seen/heard, along with talking to current Toyota owners, consumer confidence is shaky at best,

    Did you ask me? I'm mulling over a Camry. You may be right, I know people who still won't buy Ford and Hyundia. I wish I could pick the stock market as easily as some of these predictions.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    ...or there is some exagerration going on here...Someone else said they could hardly adjust back to their Mazda6 after driving an Optima for a week.

    I think your interpretation may be exaggerating what was actually stated, what I posted was "when I got home and got in my Mazda6 I had to be careful driving home, even in changing lanes on the freeway, as I had gotten used to that vagueness and had to remember to not "oversteer"."

    Note that this was with the former versions of both the 6 and the Optima. They have moved toward each other since then, based on reviews. For example, edmunds, talking about the new version of the Optima, said: "...Kia adds something that was lacking in the prior Optima – fun. With a suspension tuned by a former Mazda chassis engineer, the new Optima...makes for an enjoyable drive on a twisty road." Meanwhile many reviews have said that the new 6 does not have the handling that the prior version did.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    edited February 2010
    I totally agree the new 6 doesn't handle like the older version as I have one of the older and I realize it is quite touchy. Sorry I didn't copy you verbatim but my point still is that I just don't get that it's that hard. Possibly it's just me from all the rental cars and different cars I've driven. Maybe the old Optima was that bad. I have to take your word for it because I never drove one of those.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Further, CR has found the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan twins have proven to be more reliable than a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Blasphemy, you say? To borrow a marketing phrase from the Blue Oval itself, Drive One and find out for yourself.

    Above just posted on Autoblog.com. To think that Ford could overcome people burning up in Pintos and getting killed rolling over in their Explorers to be where they are today. Toyota will probably overcome their tribulations as well but it will take awhile. The bigger they are the harder they fall.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    edited February 2010
    Question:

    What's the bigger reason the average Camry buyer bought a Camry, the way the car drives/handles or it's reputation for dependability???
  • ingvaringvar Posts: 205
    I think it depends on a driver. Personally for me, Camry is an appliance, not a car, but some people may love to move forward:-)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    It could be the way it drives. Many people like a smooth, quiet ride, especially given how bad the streets in some cities are getting (like mine). Camry has one of the smoothest if not the smoothest rides in the class.

    Handling? That's another story. But think about how many mid-sized sedans never see a switchback or mountain canyon. They see a lot of grocery store parking lots and shopping malls, and city streets.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Absolutely. :shades
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I've never heard a manufacturer say premium optional. Although a number of them say regular optional.

    There are 3 categories:

    Regular. Even these vehicles have knock sensors. Knock can be caused by bad gas or engine problems (carbon deposits e.g.).

    Premium required. These vehicles are not designed to be run with regular fuel although they probably can be safely run with regular under certain circumstances (e.g. light throttle in a turbocharged vehicle).

    Premium recommended. These vehicles will run just fine all day on regular but will provide better performance with higher octane premium fuel.

    All of these have knock sensors. It has nothing to do with the octane rating. The knock sensor is there to prevent engine damage which can occur on any engine. I would imagine only the cheapest engines from the cheapest mfrs would not have them today.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I know right, here is another telling sign, Ford is doing much better but it hasn't past the Japanese yet, here are the just recently released ALG awards for resale value!!

    the recent things with Toyota look like they have factored in since they have dropped a little bit!!!

    https://www.alg.com/ResidualValueAwards
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I did not mean to imply it was "hard" or that I "could hardly adjust", I meant the difference was very noticeable. When I started driving the optima, it was like "am I turning yet...how about now?", when back in the 6 it was like "oh, I am already changing lanes".
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,966
    edited February 2010
    knock sensors have been out for decades, so i expect every modern engine has at least one.
    direct injection in a volume vehicle is new technology for most manufacturers.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,774
    I think the TL handles decently, well you have an 05 I think and I have a 08 and I don't know if the steering what changed but except for extremely tight curves, where the TL I do agree slips a little bit, I think it handles pretty good, high subjective I know

    Perhaps it is because I went from a A4 to the TL. The TL is nowhere near as sharp as the A4. I'm already lusting for a better handling car once I put a few more years on the TL. I already have 94K miles, will probably go to about 150K.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    edited February 2010
    Really. You really think it depends on the driver. That's very insightful. Gee, which midsize car in this class is not an appliance and where do you draw the line or are they all appliances in your opinion?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Agree. I think it's the way it rides and handles mostly. I know a couple of people that have Camrys in addition to my daughter who drives a company car(she had a choice but limited to only about 4 vehicles). They pretty much love the soft, quiet ride and don't like some of the more sporty cars because they are "jittery" and steer too quick in their words.

    This leads me to think that if Toyota can get their act together safetywise, design some decent looking cars and upgrade their interiors.....they will be right back at or near the top.

    Wow, didn't I pretty much just describe what Hyundai is doing right now?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    edited February 2010
    The sensible thing for a company that wants to grow it's sales in the US is clearly to not make their cars too "jittery" or "steer too quick" :D . If I wanted to sell a lot of cars in the US, I'd certainly target a soft ride and unquick ;) steering after looking at the huge sales of Camry and the still large amounts of sales of GM cars (many of which also tend to not "steer to quick" and have soft suspensions). There are far more cars like these sold in the US than there are of those like the Mazda6, etc.

    It'll be interesting to see how much VW gives in to the majority of American's desires in their new US midsizer.
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