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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • midas69midas69 Posts: 118
    edited March 2010
    I live in the city of Chicago, so insurance rates are high. But when I switched from my 2007 Camry to the 2011 Sonata my insurance went up about $5 a month. Pretty comparable to the original price I was paying when the Camry was new. BTW, that's through State Farm.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2010
    Several other companies wanted to charge as much as $440 a month (are they kidding me? Thats more than the car payments!!)
    ****

    Yet another reason to find a 2-4 year old version of most anything and not but new. Insurance and the first 2-3 years registration is a hidden "tax" that most car buyers don't begin to factor into the price.
    ****

    True Cost to Own®
    ___________Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total
    Depreciation $7,257 $2,096 $1,845 $1,635 $1,467 $14,300
    Taxes & Fees $2,467 $147 $133 $121 $111 $2,979
    Financing...... $1,452 $1,170 $868 $544 $197 $4,231
    Insurance...... $1,976 $2,045 $2,117 $2,191 $2,223 $10,552

    Ouch? That first year is brutal and essentially a luxury tax in disguise. Even by year two, it's reasonable. (this is on the above mentioned Sonata SE)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Don't forget that you still have to pay a significant amount of sales tax in year two or three or whenever you buy unless you live in New Hampshire(no sales tax) or live in a state that doesn't tax used vehicles(I don't know of any). Also, you have to add back in some of that depreciation unless you are lucky enough to be able to buy wholesale. Still a better deal from a strict financial viewpoint I won't argue.

    However, I think most people realize there is a big dollar penalty in buying new. A lot of people save and skrimp for years just to be able to buy that brand spanking new car every 7-10 years. It is just as important to them to have that new car smell as it is to you to save money. Other want to know that the car they're buying has not been abused and they're willing to pay a price for that. To each their own.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It's always better financially to buy a 2 to 3 year old car. Better than that financially is a 5 year old or 10 year clunker for $1000. But where is the line in the sand for who decides how much a car should be used before it really becomes a good value? Where is the line in the sand that dictates how much a car is before it becomes overpriced and out of range.

    One mans overpriced vehicle is anothers chump change (King Of Dubai silver Audi) and anothers persons very affordable Rolls is a stupid purchase to some.

    Everybody has to decide for themselves. Plekto is at the 2 or 3 year mark, I'm at the new mark.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    It's always better financially to buy a 2 to 3 year old car. Better than that financially is a 5 year old or 10 year clunker for $1000. But where is the line in the sand for who decides how much a car should be used before it really becomes a good value? Where is the line in the sand that dictates how much a car is before it becomes overpriced and out of range.

    One mans overpriced vehicle is anothers chump change (King Of Dubai silver Audi) and anothers persons very affordable Rolls is a stupid purchase to some


    Eh, I think this is pretty easy to document...a new car cost (payment, insurance, registration, depreciation maybe) vs a used car (same, but with increased maintenance/repair, not as advanced, which could be good or bad, etc)

    When I got rid of the '93 Accord for the '07, its maintenance costs had peaked and I was spending more on repairs than a car payment would be. So I bought a then new car that was already outdated (no MP3/iPod stereo in '07, puleeze :sick: ). But alas, a smarter purchase would've been a used domestic, but there was nothing in '04-06 that I really liked from the moderately sized 3.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Posts: 303
    I am 23, no accidents, good credit.. but the age is what kills me on this one :(
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think the bigger financial issue is how long you keep the car that you buy. I doubt it is cheaper to buy a 2-3 year old car every 2-3 years than it is to buy a new car every 10 years. Buying used can also mean far more time spent running around to test drive cars, because each one is in different condition.

    When I bought my last new car in 2007, IMO the best value probably would have been a year or two old used Taurus for maybe $12K. I considered that, but decided to spend $4K more to get the new Mazda6 that I wanted. It depends on your financial situation how significant that kind of difference is.

    If the entire cost of the car is a month or two's income and the value of your investments fluctuates by as much as the price of the car on many days, then the difference is much less than it is if you are making $10 per hour and have no savings.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    However, I think most people realize there is a big dollar penalty in buying new. A lot of people save and skrimp for years just to be able to buy that brand spanking new car every 7-10 years. It is just as important to them to have that new car smell as it is to you to save money.

    Yet the reality is that even a 1-2 year old car with 20-30K on it will be so close to new for most people that they can't tell the difference. On average it amounts to a 10K+ savings over the life of the car in lower payments(less interest), lower insurance, lower tax and registration, saved depreciation, and so on.

    That's a lifetime of repairs and then some and in many cases it STILL has some of that new car smell(though being that that is actually outgassing plastics and fabrics and paint, it's even not remotely healthy...)

    Plus, there isn't hardly any car out there that will be used up or even really broken in at 20-30K miles. It's a really safe move. And if you really do have the extra cash, you can go up a level or two. V6 for a 4 cylinder price. Win-Win. :)
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I go through cars like others go through tooth paste. I put 34k miles on in 16 months on just one car, we have 3. If I added all the miles put on in a years time between the 3, it is over 50K miles. I went the used route, but wore the cars out before they were paid for, so for me going the new route works best, plus I got lucky with the cars I bought that they had a high trade in value, and none of them had residuals that were carried over into the next car payment. For example, a 2007 Prius, 10 months old, 24,000 miles, trade in on that covered the residual I had left over on a 2001 Crown Vic, that I also traded in, purchased a 2008 Hyundai Veracruz, when all was said and done I paid sticker OTD, which I financed for 60 months, I mean I financed the sticker price, that included the tax, title, license, and fees. after a few months we found we couldnt get by with just one car, and I got a superb deal on a 2009 Camry Hybrid, 28,500 OTD, with no trade, dropped $500 on it, financed 28K. Drove the Camry for the majority, put 34,000 miles on it in 16 months, and after several incidents with it deciding it wanted to go when we were stopping, traded it in for a 2010 Fusion Sport. I got what I owed for the Camry, so basically it was no different than had I leased it. I had to do some hard bargaining for the Sport to get the price down, but at 0% financing, I got a more expensive car, and pay over $40 a month less than for the Camry. Then after the last snow storm, I discovered, rather to my disappointment, than our loved Hyundai was terrible in the snow, we purchased a FWD version instead of AWD, thinking it should be fine in snow. Well it was, in dry cold snow, and it plows through drifts beautifully, but the wet slushy stuff, it was wanting to pass itself, back to front, would have issues getting going, and would be scary trying to stop. New tires would have helped, but would have cost over $1600 to get new rims and snow tires for it, but it would still have that nagging problem of the back end wanting to pass the front, even with good tires, so we decided to look for an AWD vehicle to replace it with. We checked Hyundai, but the lots were sparse, the local dealer is still trying to get its inventory back after the C4C, they sold just about all they had. There weren't any incentives, and what they had, they weren't willing to deal, so I went to Ford, and got an amazing deal on a Flex. What was even more amazing was they gave me more for my trade of the VC than I owed on it. What is even better, I knocked my payment down on it $114 a month over what I was paying on the Veracruz.

    So buying used isn't for everyone, there are some of us where buying new does work out. Insurance for me is very low, I have full coverage on a 1999 F350 Crew cab Dually diesel truck, the 2010 Fusion Sport and the 2010 Flex Ecoboost, in IL, and it costs me a little over $1600 a year for all three. The Sport is over $300 for 6 months, the other 2 are under $300 for 6 months.

    Now here is something funny, I had just opened some mail that I got Saturday, and found the bank I got the loan from on the Veracruz sent me a $550 check for over payment. In addition, there was an disability insurance policy on the loan that I may be able to get some money back on. This must be trickle down from owning the Prius. When I traded it, I had a warranty that I paid $1900 for, found I could get it for $895, dealer sent me a $1200 check for the difference, then when I canceled the warranty, got back an additional $1400. OK this makes up for all the cars I lost money on! :) :shades:
  • Did a second round of test drives on my preferred cars.

    Chevy Malibu - excellent build quality, very attractive inside and out, smooth engine, very quiet ride, but uncomfortable (for me) driver's seat, mainly because the seat is too sculpted for my large rear end.

    Honda Accord - Good build quality, fairly comfortable front seat, excellent handling, powerful engine, but noisy ride (road noise and wind noise).

    2010 Hyundai Sonata - decent build quality, very comfortable front seat, fairly quiet ride, but whiny, wimpy engine.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata - Very stylish exterior, very nice interior, extremely comfortable driver's seat (best I've ever encountered - I don't know why I didn't see it that way my first test drive), very good power, very good handling. Definitely the car for me.

    Problem - the color/model combination I want isn't available in the Washington DC area right now, so I'll have to wait awhile.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The financial trade-offs also depends on the deal one gets on the car. My new Mazda6 cost me $16K plus about $800 in sales tax, there is no difference in annual registration costs here, it is a flat $75 per year whether you have a Rolls Royce or a $1000 junkmobile.

    It is 3 years old with about 25,000 miles. Edmunds gives me a private party value of about $13,000 and dealer price of about $14,500. So someone buying my car used would pay only about $1500 to $3000 less than I did. They'd also save $75-150 in sales tax. The insurance savings would be insignificant here, except that you might pay for collision/comp coverage for fewer years. The cost of this for me is about $200 per year, so assuming 3 years less of this coverage would mean $600 in savings. OTOH, since someone buying used missed 3 years/25K mi of no repair bills, what is that going to cost them later on? $1000?

    For my case, at most, the net difference appears to be maybe $3000. Far less than your $10K guess. If I keep the car 10 years, that difference is only $300 per year.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2010
    Note - good luck getting private party value. The real value for trade-in is wholesale and low trade in if a private sale. It's a rough marketplace out there right now if you're trying, no begging people to buy your used car from you. (the opposite is true - you can haggle like a bandit now)

    A 3 year old Mazda 6 can be had for $11000 without trying(dealer) and $9000 private party if you haggle(some dealers have 45-50K mile examples for $9K even). I checked this right now with Autotrader, so it represents real street prices.

    16K vs 9K? At that savings, you could trade cars every three years *still* and end up saving an enormous amount over new. I seriously doubt is anything made in Japan will fall apart any more or less in years 4-6 vs 1-3.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    A 3 year old Mazda 6 can be had for $11000 without trying(dealer) and $9000 private party if you haggle(some dealers have 45-50K mile examples for $9K even). I checked this right now with Autotrader, so it represents real street prices.

    All depends on location and supply vs demand.

    I just sold a 2008 Mazda6 i SV with 31K on it for $11,995. I am currently toying with the idea of selling my 2005 Mazda6 i Sport Hatchback (loaded) and it has 62K on it, and I have had 3 offers on it, all over $9,500.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    $11995 is exactly how much off of new, though?

    The smart person always gets a 1-3 year old(certified if it makes them feel safer I guess) car versus brand new. That initial $10K in depreciation is really rough.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Can we PLEASE cut out this talk about people who buy new cars are "dumb"? Did it ever occur to you that they might just ENJOY driving a new car?!? And it's THEIR money to spend as they wish?

    Personally I have gone the slightly used route lately, and it works for me and what I need in cars right now. But I've bought new before and will do so again when it's the right thing to do. And I won't feel I am "stupid" for making that choice to buy new, when the time comes.

    Maybe we could talk about cars?
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I have no problem with what people do with their money, but when I head someone going on about how it costs the same to buy new versus used, well, that's just simply wrong.

    There's no shame, really, in buying used versus new. Many of these program/dealer cars and short-terms lease vehicles are so close to new that sometimes the driver's manual hasn't even been removed from the shrinkwrap.
  • I have an 80 total mile commute which ads up to 40,000 miles a year including normal driving on my car...And I decided to buy new. I got a Ford Fusion Sport a few months ago.

    I've had 2 used cars in my life and in both cases I had to spend a lot of money with upkeep. New tires, repairs, etc...

    I decided to just buy new and at the very least have some financial stability for a few years in the fact that the Fusion is an extremely reliable car. I'm sure I'm going to be pissed off at the value when I try to sell it, BUT cars are plummeting in value so fast nowadays I don't think anyone will be happy!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It's not about the cost of new vs pre-owned, it's about how long you keep your cars. I know people who get(buy) a new car every 3 years. That certainly costs more than buying a 3 year car every three years. But it's their money.

    However, if one keeps their car for 10 years, it's a basic wash. Or if one puts on 30K miles a year a used car is a bad bet. Or if one gets a lemon a new car, in that instance, after the fact would have been a better bet.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The prices I gave were for 25,000 miles.

    One used Mazda6 I test drove before I bought my new one, seemed like a deal based on the online listing. But it turned out to be an amazingly crapped up 1-2 year old car. This is why edmunds gives different average prices for clean vs. average, etc. So one cheap listing with 2x the mileage does not prove anything about what a buyer would need to pay to get a "clean" car with 1/2 the miles of your examples.

    No one has said it costs the same, but it certainly is not going to cost me anywhere near your figure of $10,000 more to have bought my new car, that I will likely keep for 10 years or more.
  • You also have situations like I just encountered. The 2011 Hyundai Sonata, which I'm going to purchase, is head and shoulders above any of the previous versions of the Sonata. So you have to buy a new 2011 Sonata to get the superior model.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yeah, you know, now that you mention it, I had wanted to get a 2006 or later Mazda6 when I bought because they had improved the seat (the original was too hard for me), gone to a 5 speed auto, and they had made the car quieter based on my test drives (at least part of this was related to the transmission, the 4 speed ran at much higher rpm than the 5 speed auto).
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    It looks like Hyundai did okay with the new Sonata, but it also looks like the GLS is FAR from a game-changer in the midsize segment.

    Full test

    Bottom Line:
    The 2011 Sonata ticks all the boxes, but the chassis feels underdone, leaving us to imagine how good this car could be if Hyundai charged a couple grand more.


    Surprised?
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    The 2011 Sonata ticks all the boxes, but the chassis feels underdone, leaving us to imagine how good this car could be if Hyundai charged a couple grand more.

    They do charge a couple grand more--I think they call that one the Sonata SE! ;)
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Or if one puts on 30K miles a year a used car is a bad bet.

    Exactly. When you put 100 miles a week on a car, have your wife and kids with you for part of that ride each day, you want a safe reliable car, so in this situation, its a no brainer. You also have the peace of mind that you have a car that has no hidden issues the previous owner covered up that you will wind up paying to have repaired. You have a full warranty for a good portion of that time, so no out of pocket expenses for a while, and you get the latest in safety features that you may not get on a 3-4 YO car. When it comes to the cars I have, there are no USED models out there with the features I have. There may be a few used Flex models, but they don't have telescopic steering wheels. The Fusion Sport is new for 2010, and it is the car that I have been looking to get for the past 3 years, so used in this model? One other thing about buying new vs used, finance rates, where can you get 0% for 60 on a used car? When you add up how much you pay for the finance rate on a used car, vs a new one @ 0%, the finance charge more than makes up the difference on a used car. If you can get a 1.9% for 48 months new, vs a 6.9% for 48 used, and depending on the car and bank, could be higher, 5% interest can add up to quite a bit. 1.9% on 22K is roughly $864, 6.9% on 18k is roughly $2649. So if you buy a car for $22K, get 0% for 48, the same used car is $18K, you are only paying roughly $1400 more for it in the long run.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2010
    My Toyota has almost 400K on it, so I guess YMMV. I also drive a lot of miles and it just doesn't worry me at all. The most expensive thing that I can replace on the vehicle costs me 4 months worth of payments on a new one(manual transmission). Another advantage of buying used is that you can often buy with cash and save money on insurance as well. I have literally everything on my policy. High coverage limits as well. Not some bargain basement policy. I save almost $500 a year by not having collision(my fault) on it. I'm covered by literally anything other than it being my fault and it right there saves me enough to pay for any repairs. If you buy new, there is no option unless you have $20-25K in cash and are willing to risk that much without coverage.

    That said, yes, the old Toyota is in need of replacement. But I have no problems with buying something with 30-40K on it and running it for 300-400K.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Interesting that everyone was screaming about the 0-60 time when watching a video of the race between the '11 Sonata and the Camry. Here are some times that will probably put to rest any notions that the DI I4 is gutless.

    Edmunds '11 Sonata 7.7 secs
    Edmunds 09 Accord LX-P 9.1 secs
    Edmunds 10 Kizashi 9.1 secs
    Edmunds 10 Legacy 9.4 secs
    Edmunds Fusion SEL V6 7.3 secs
    CR 09 Camry LE 9.4 secs
    Edmunds 09 Sonata LTD I4 9.8

    I would say it gives a pretty respectable showing and certainly would beat a Camry I4 easily. Not that I personally care very much about 0-60 times(now 60-0 is a different story) but a lot of people were bashing the new Sonata because of those videos.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Why bash a 4 banger that puts out the numbers of a V6? Power of a V6 when you want or need it, with the fuel efficiency of a 4 Cyl when you don't. It's like those who bash Ford's Ecoboost, a v6 that puts out more power than the 4.6L V8 in a Mustang GT.

    The Flex I have is the Ecoboost, 355 HP 350 PdFt torque, V6. I get 19-20 MPG daily driving(when I can keep my foot out of it), same as the non turbo 3.5L V6 in the other models. I can spank the pants off most other cars, yet get much better FE than one equipped with a V8 that meets those numbers. So why would anyone knock the I4 in the Hyundai? Why would you want a gas guzzling V6 when you can get the FE I4 that puts out more power? Smart move on Hyundais part.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Just compare the fuel economy of a comparable Audi Q7 V8 with a MKT ecoboost V6. The MKT not only has more power but significantly better fuel economy. And a nicer interior.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I save almost $500 a year by not having collision

    Insurance rates vary. In my case, as I mentioned collision costs me about $200 per year. I typically will drop that when the car's value is about $5000. So I would still have that coverage, for a time, were I to buy newish used cars...which is the sort of cars that I thought you had been touting.

    The other thing is the value of the coverage to me is more than $0, which is what you have assumed it's value is by saying you save the $500 per year that it would cost to have that coverage. Should there be a loss, I am out my $1000 deductible in addition to the premiums, you would be out the entire amount of the loss. So the proper comparison is not to assume that you will never have a loss while you are driving with no collision coverage.

    For me, the expected value of $1000 deductible collision coverage appears to be about $85 per year and for comprehensive it is about $10. So the true net cost of my $200 premium is, perhaps, about $115 per year. According to this calculator, anyway: http://insuranceriskcalculator.com/

    My entire policy does not even cost $500 per year...and no, this is not with minimum liability or anything. However, "high coverage limits" have absolutely nothing to do with the cost of collision/comprehensive. What is covered by that is only damage to your own vehicle, so the cost is not affected by your liability coverage limits.

    I would have a huge problem with putting 300,000 miles on a car...which is that it would take me about 37 years! :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I can just hear the editor's conference at Edmunds now: "Folks, it appears the media is having a love-fest with the new Sonata, so we need to come out with a contrarian view to draw some readership. Let's focus our review on the low-end GLS, which we know doesn't handle like the SE, then talk about how it needs some improvements in handling--even though we like how the SE drives. Then let's say something about how maybe Hyundai should have spent $2000 more on the car to get it the way we want it--even though in fact they already did that in the SE trim. Yes, that ought to do it!"

    ;)
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