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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    You'd better wait until the 2011 Optima comes out before you buy a Kizashi. Otherwise, you'll buy the Kizashi, and the following week you'll see the new Optima on the road, fall in love with it, and have to ditch the Kizashi (and take a bit hit in $$$$) to get the Optima.

    :)
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Yep all new trucks need to meet the same requirements, and most now have Urea systems in addition to particle filtration. VW also has 50 state diesels.

    My only point was that diesels today fire right up even in cold weather, and warm up quicker than gasoline engines, once you start driving of course. I would love to see a turbo diesel hybrid.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    You actually indicated that you did have short delays, at times, before starting. According to another diesel proponent, they do take longer to produce heat:

    http://www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/04/myth-3-a-diesel-engine-can%E2%80%99t-heat-a-- car-in-winter-driving-in-a-2009-jetta-tdi-clean-diesel-during-a-week-of-exceptio- nally-cold-weather/

    Since the saving on fuel would be very minimal for me (~$200 per year) and it adds some minor inconveniences, I'd not be willing to pay for a diesel engine.

    Anyway, in my case, there were several other reasons for not considering the diesel Jetta, besides the engine.

    Speaking of diesels, have the manufacturer's pulled back on plans to bring diesels to the US? I seem to recall claims that a diesel Accord was coming. A google search turned up a several 2007 stories (C/D, Inside Line) saying that would be here in 2009.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Hyundai also has the Genesis (the V8 sedan and V6 coupe),

    Good luck finding a V8. From what my buddies tell me at the Hyundai store next to me is majority of the Genesis takers are buying the V6, and the over all sales of the Genesis are not great. Sales of the coupe and sedan combined were only 1,700 for February
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,707
    you make a valid point, man. I just loved the driving dynamics and the sporty ride of the Kizashi. It was quiet inside. I didn't get a chance to pop a CD in the player. It has 425-watts vs. our Lancer's 650.

    Oh, and the Mrs. might wonder why Mr.iluv is getting a buy itch already, too. Waiting is probably a good idea at this juncture. :blush:

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Good luck finding a V8. From what my buddies tell me at the Hyundai store next to me is majority of the Genesis takers are buying the V6,

    That's exactly the reason it is fairly easy finding a V8. When I was on a couple of Hyundai dealers lots on a Sunday a few weeks ago to look at the new Sonata I couldn't believe how many V-8 Genesis were sitting around. It was hard to find a V6 one!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    The Accord diesel was scratched due to they could only meet the EPA requirements with the manual transmission and they didn't want to spend the money to get it certifed with the auto. I read that as I have no personal knowledge. It kinda doesn't make sense to me but that seems to be the consensus for their backing out.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The Accord diesel was scratched due to they could only meet the EPA requirements with the manual transmission and they didn't want to spend the money to get it certifed with the auto. I read that as I have no personal knowledge. It kinda doesn't make sense to me but that seems to be the consensus for their backing out.

    That and I think they had planned to put it in the Crosstour, which is auto only, and terminally ugly. Maybe it was a wise decision. An obese Honda...just what we needed.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    edited March 2010
    I spent several hours yesterday perusing the offerings at the Atlanta Auto Show. While several manufacturers (most notably Nissan/Infiniti and BMW) were not represented, I got plenty of time to browse the rest. There were few surprises in the ranks of the midsize sedan--Honda, Toyota, Ford/Mercury, Kia, Mazda, Chevrolet, VW, Chrysler all fielded pretty much the same stuff as last year. While the Fusion and Malibu remain impressive cars, there were two new entries that made a very positive mark on my memory--the Sonata (which will receive its own separate post) and the Buick Regal.

    Since the Regal was not available at GM's "ride & drive" booth, my impressions are based only on a "sit & stare" method, in which I sat in, fiddled with, closely examined, etc. Also, bear in mind the small sample size--there were only two Regals present. Here are the things that stood out to me:

    1. Interior quality. I'll admit to being easily swayed by the two-tone color schemes of the Malibu and the dramatic (some would say excessive) brightwork of the LaCrosse. The Regal's interior is more restrained, less likely to look out of fashion by the time the loan is paid off. It's better finished than I'm accustomed to seeing in European, American, or Asian vehicles at this price point. This may be the car's greatest asset in the market--it's distinctive without being gimmicky, and it definitely looks and feels expensive.

    2. Interior space. The only significant dimensional difference between Regal and LaCrosse is in rear legroom--yet the Regal gives an entirely different impression, that of a close-coupled European sedan rather than a sprawling American luxury car. The range of seat adjustment is astounding--I'm of average proportion for a fortysomething American male (5'10, 200 lbs), so I can get comfortable in most cars, but I was completely blown away here. Anyone from Larry Bird to Billy Barty should be able to find a good driving position in the Regal.

    3. Seating comfort. I've been impressed by the seats in both the LaCrosse and Enclave already, and I wondered how the Regal would compare. They're slightly firmer, and a bit more "sporty feeling," but not to the point of being confining. Again, it feels expensive.

    4. Marketing and pricing. Sitting still, the Regal definitely gives the impression of being a $27k car. I don't have a problem with it being four-cylinder only. But I am concerned about the decision to launch before the 220hp turbo version is ready. Since the Regal is offered at a premium price, the premium powertrain should have been the first one offered. Sure, the 182hp Ecotec is probably sufficient in daily driving, but lots of cars that cost less have sufficient power (four-cylinder Accords, Sonatas, Malibus, etc.) As the Regal's differentiation from these cars (and the LaCrosse) depends on its sportiness, there's a problem here. To launch the car with this engine as the sole offering is to invite comparison with similarly powered, less expensive mass market cars rather than the Acura TSX and Volvo S60 that Buick claims to be targeting.

    As near as I can tell, not one review of the 182hp Regal has been published--all of the buzz generated by the press pertains to the 220hp turbo, or to the "concept" GS. Is GM so desperate to book a few sales ASAP that they're willing to risk launching yet another not-quite-finished car?

    I really want to see the Regal succeed. But to do so, it'll need to perform like a premium product. All indications are that the turbo model will do so--at $29.5k, when it's finally available sometime next summer. As for the base model--we'll see.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Good write up on the Regal and agree on the most part re the marketing. However, it kind of follows(whodda thunk) Hyundai's marketing of the Sonata. Hyundai eliminated the V6 with the promise of a turbo.....later. Few people think it is a big marketing error. I realize the Sonata is so completely different, and seemingly better, than the previous version that it will work IMO. But you're right that Buick is trying to build the perception that it should be cross shopped against Lexus and not Mercury so your comment about not being immediately competitive against TSX and VolvoS60 are right on.

    Also, Infiniti is coming out with a G37 lite called the G25(2.5L engine instead of the 3.7) that will be right in the ball park with the Regal turbo price wise so it will have another solid contender. I think most people that are spending around 30k+ on a new car prefer 200 or more HP. TSX is right on that borderline and all the others are on top of it.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    edited March 2010
    However, it kind of follows(whodda thunk) Hyundai's marketing of the Sonata.

    The Sonata starts at $20k, 3200 lbs, and 198 hp, rather than $27k, 3600 lbs, and 182 hp (at 6700 rpm). I think this strategy will work great for Hyundai, since that company is the very definition of "mass market," but Buick's efforts at premium positioning make this a risky move for the brand.

    Let me add that I'd take the Regal turbo very seriously at $27k, and would consider the nonturbo a great deal at $24-25k, marketing strategy notwithstanding. A GS powered by the 260hp Ecotec from the Cobalt SS would be a good range topper at $30k.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    edited March 2010
    I might be the only person on Earth who thinks this way, but to me the driving experience--ride, handling, comfort--as well as safety are more important than 0-60 numbers as long as the car's power is adequate. Since 182 hp is more than in V6 engines of just a few years ago (e.g. the 3.8L V6 of the late '90s full-sized LeSabre delivered only 170 hp, and late '90s 2-ton Grand Caravan 3.8L V8 had 180 hp), I think it will be more than adequate, at least for me. It's also a more power than in mid-sized I4 cars with similar prices, e.g. Malibu LTZ I4, Fusion SEL I4, and Camry XLE I4.

    Those who "feel the need for speed" will want to wait for the Regal turbo or go with one of the V6 cars with closer to 300 hp.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    edited March 2010
    Backy, I agree with your priorities--but when the car is specifically marketed as a sport sedan and priced as such, sporting acceleration should be part of the package.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Adequate 4 cyl power is enough for me, but then I don't really buy premium priced cars and I am not afraid of high rpms.

    I see that the late '90s GM 3.8L V6 had 205 HP, actually. That was at only 5200 rpm and peak torque was 230 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm. I believe someone indicated that the 182 HP was at 6500 rpm, that engine will surely not be offering anything like 230 ft-lbs of torque at 4000 rpm.

    While cars seemingly sell based on somewhat meaningless HP numbers at very high rpm, most drivers really seem to prefer not revving engines to even 1/2 of the rpm at which those HP numbers occur. The way a lot of people seem to drive, I think they are more likely to feel an engine to be adequate if it feels adequate at about 2500 rpm.

    Most of the difference between 182 HP @ 6500 rpm and the TSX's 200 HP @ 7000 rpm is simply due to the higher rpm (the difference in torque is only 3 ft-lbs, based on those numbers).
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,264
    edited March 2010
    >, but to me the driving experience--ride, handling, comfort

    I agree with that. The power ratings, the alleged zero-sixty times, the quarter mile times, the G-ratings, the super high alleged gas mileage ratings and all mean little to me. It's what it drives like when I drive one that will sell me. Frankly, for the cars with the wunder high mileage ratings I always take that with a grain of salt. I don't pay attention to the EPA ratings expecting to get that for my typical driving.

    It's the driving experience which is a result of the gearing and engine capabilities at the speeds and in the manner I drive it that makes a difference.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    edited March 2010
    I might be the only person on Earth who thinks this way

    It would be hard to make a profit selling only to one person! ;)

    No, I agree with you as well. My 1993 LaSabre had 170hp IRRC and it was fine and got 30-31mpg on long, xpressway only trips. I think smoothness has a little bit to do with it too when it comes to cars costing close to 30k and on up. A six does run a lot smoother and usually has more grunt to get moving. And I stand by what I said earlier, the vast majority of people buying cars for 30k plus(which the turbo Regal will most probably be) want some smoothness and 200+ HP IMO.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    The base Regal's peak torque of 172 ft-lbs occurs at 4900 rpm.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    edited March 2010
    Thanks for the torque number. That is about the same as the TSX engine, though it is actually at higher rpm than TSX's peak torque.

    For comparison the 1993 LeSabre, which did have a 3.8L V6 with 170 HP (but at only 4800 rpm) had peak torque of 225 ft-lbs at 3200 rpm.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,736
    a lot of engines are designed to produce power across a large range rather than being designed for specific maximum numbers.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    I don't pay attention to the EPA ratings expecting to get that for my typical driving.

    Nor do I. I expect to exceed the EPA ratings. :) In my experience, it is very easy to exceed the EPA numbers in any car, as long as some basic fuel-saving techniques are followed (light foot on gas pedal, anticipating stops, sticking to speed limits).
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,756
    I might be the only person on Earth who thinks this way, but to me the driving experience--ride, handling, comfort--as well as safety are more important than 0-60 numbers as long as the car's power is adequate.

    Absolutely Backy. I drive an '05 TL and it has plenty of power, but is a bit of a pig in handling next to my '98 Audi A4. With over 50 fewer horses, the Audi was a lot more fun to drive. And our current Mazda 5 (micro-minivan!) has much tighter, more responsive steering than my TL. But not nearly as much power. And you know what - the Mazda is more fun to drive.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    You are talking about the last years of that engine. There was a nice power increase in '95 with the series II 3800. Then in '96 the Eaton SC went from 1 L to 1.5 L. 205 HP without and 240 HP, 282 ft-lbs with the SC in '96. Comparable to a Mustang 5.0 at the time.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,707
    edited March 2010
    image

    You see how the painted alloys look against the silver paint and the foglights on and such? I love that on this car! And how the headlights look with the mirrored chrome inside and such. Looks great.

    The GTS model shown is only $23,244.

    Here's a review I just found that is making my mind up on getting a Kizashi. Check this out. I've been wanting to get a car with a manual transmission for a while and here's my chance to do just that. Check this review out, friends.

    Vehicle

    2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS 4dr Sedan (2.4L 4cyl 6M)

    Review

    Haven't had this much fun driving a car since 1978! Great fun with 6 spd.manual transmission, great pick-up and performance...watch out...in 6th gear you can go from 75-100 in a split second without trying to! LOVE MY KIZASHI!

    Favorite Features

    Interior! Fosgate sound! Smooth ride! Mileage!

    Suggested Improvements

    None so far
    ________________________________________________________________

    Here's another one I like.

    Vehicle

    2010 Suzuki Kizashi SLS 4dr Sedan AWD (2.4L 4cyl CVT)

    Review

    Iwas waiting for that car for more than a month. First i want to get GTS AWD CVT but they dont make it yet so i put order for SLS AWD CVT. I took delivery on 2/18 and the car had 24 miles on it. Now i can't say to much about acceleration because i have 350miles and still i am brake in a car but driving on high way taking few seconds to get to 80mph. So far i can say car is cool and fun to drive. On snow car feel steady. Interior its nice and it has a lots of room. Car has a lot of features for that price. If you will buy different car with those futures you will pay much more.

    Favorite Features

    stereo system, moon roof, AWD, paddle shifters, sunroof, push to stat button, auto wipers and lights.

    Suggested Improvements

    Blind spot warning, 6 cd changer, buck up camera should be standard in all trims and standard navigation in SLS will be nice.

    Evidently Suzuki tested this car on the Autobahn. They have done a great job. I loved my test drive and longed for the stick shift version of the car during that drive. And afterwards, too! :)

    I am thinking of returning to the Pacific Northwest and in Pullman one does have a lot of snow to deal with. Yes, the home of Washington State University, Pullman. We'll see, I have had a phone interview that went very well. I am going to check out Suzuki dealers in the Pacific Northwest in the Pullman region. I know there's one in Spokane. I miss my homeland, which is actually the Seattle area. But this hospital I'm applying for a job at is winning patient satisfaction awards and it is winning 'Top 100 hospitals to work at in the U.S.' awards as well. I'm very interested! And it does snow a lot in Pullman.

    They do plow the streets there, but my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, though a great car, might have trouble in the snow, due to it's high-performance, low-profile Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S Pinna tires. Don't get me wrong, they're great tires. But I suspect the tires with the Lancer suspension and racecar type setup might cause me trouble up in Palouse country.

    I'm all excited about the Kizashi and the job in Pullman. Aw, schucks. Ya know I'll be keeping you posted. The Mrs. is going to have to be...umm...nurtured along with this for a while. I may want to wear my flak jacket at the appropriate times. :D

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hi all. I'm considering selling both my 06 Accord and 96 Accord in order to buy one brand new Sonata, preferably stick-shift. Can someone tell me what they think I'd miss by going from my 06 Accord EX to a Sonata GLS with no options?

    Also, any guidance on pricing? I wouldn't finance, it would be a cash transaction for me.
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Posts: 216
    Well, the good news is that even the base GLS has more options than a lot of its competitors' stripped down models.

    Since the stick shift Sonatas list at right at or slightly below $20k, you should be able to get one for something in the $18k range.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,240
    Sorry for the mildly OT post but iluv, have you considered the forthcoming Outlander Sport? Average of 30MPG, the Lancer's engine (lots of Lancer components, actually), and available AWD to handle the snow. I'd think pricing would be quite competitive against the Suzuki since it slots under the regular Outlander.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Posts: 303
    edited March 2010
    The Sonata is an awesome car, although the GLS with no options is the base car. No power seats, no leather, steel 16'' wheels instead of alloy.. but other than that you still get iPod, Bluetooth, and lots of other options you wouldn't usually get at that price.

    Check out http://cars.overstock.com/configurator.html?makeId=2235&modelId=443&upfrontPrici- - - ng=Y for pricing, they have some really good deals listed on there. They list the base Sonata for $17,509. Make sure you add Hyundai cable if you plan to use the iPod, the system is buggy with just the regular Apple cable.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I agree with that. The power ratings, the alleged zero-sixty times, the quarter mile times, the G-ratings, the super high alleged gas mileage ratings and all mean little to me. It's what it drives like when I drive one that will sell me.

    Good point, this is why I gave up a 38 MPG Camry Hybrid for the Fusion Sport. I may be getting only around 22 winter 24 summer, but it is fun to drive, comfortable, and handles so much better than a Camry could ever dream of handling. After 16 months behind the wheel of the TCH, and 34K miles, I hated the car. MPG is meaningless if you despise the ride and comfort. This is one big reason I cant drive anything smaller than a mid size car, I don't feel comfortable in them, call it a phobia if you want, but when I had the Prius I felt vulnerable. Too many years driving OTR and seeing what the compacts and sub compacts look like after getting hit by anything other than another compact is scary.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Since the stick shift Sonatas list at right at or slightly below $20k, you should be able to get one for something in the $18k range.

    18k? With a $2500 rebate already sitting on them, I was thinking I could get out the door for $16k if I search hard; fitzmall had some great deals on them.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    edited March 2010
    18k? With a $2500 rebate already sitting on them, I was thinking I could get out the door for $16k if I search hard; fitzmall had some great deals on them.

    That's only on the remaining stock of 2010s. In my area the only offers on the 2011s are a lease special, a $500 owner loyalty offer, and/or special financing.
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