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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    edited May 2010
    Don't forget the Regal CXL lists at $27k and that includes quite a few luxury features including leather. That's many thousands less than a comparable Lexus, Acura, Audi, and MB. So it wouldn't surprise me if the material quality wasn't quite up to the same level as those cars. Although the sample I saw at the auto show in March certainly looked to have a high quality of fit and finish--at least as good as anything else in its price class.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Exactly what I was going to reply with. The street price for the Buick(after intitial gotta have the newest buy theirs) will probably be around $5+k less than any Lexus or MB. Audi has the A3 which is only slightly higher but options add up real fast on Audis. Acura has the TSX which is pretty close in price and has more HP. So I would say Acura wins that one but then you have to like the TSX.....which I don't.

    The new G25 which should come in with 210-220 hp and be equipped very similar to the Regal CXL will probably only be a couple of grand more so that too will be a tough competitor. Then you have the Sonata turbo which will blow the doors off the Regal turbo when it comes out. IMO opinion the Regal has a decent combo of near luxury and economy mpg/reg gas that many of the others that it is trying to comete with don't have. I guess when it comes right down to it Buick hasn't really priced itself out of this discussion but it's stated intent to compete at the near luxury/luxury level has moved it out of the main topic of this discussion.

    It will be interesting to see if GM can pull it off with Buick. They have been getting some very good JD Power scores in recent years.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Actually the current G37 starts at less than $700 more than the Regal. The G25 will be closer to 25K. Regal CXL(or whatever they're calling the better trim model) versus the G25 that's better, faster, more luxurious AND less expensive?

    No way GM wins that one. Not even close.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    What planet did you price that G37 on? Currently on Planet Earth, the G37 starts at over $33k--over $6k more than the Regal CXL. I'd be very surprised if the G25 starts at $25k, or $8k less than the G37--that's Altima territory.

    The Regal will probably be bigger than the G25 and IMO more luxurious, esp. in CXL trim (the ONLY trim available at launch). The natural competitor for the G25 is cars like the IS and 325--not mid-sized family cars like the Regal.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Who cares about a stinkin SUV, even if it is from Ford?

    An MKT isnt an SUV, its a station wagon. Get it right if you're going to bash something. :shades:

    I dont know what that "thing" is you posted a picture of, but it sure is fugly.

    I like my Fusion Sport, I like my dealer, and would choose it over an obscure one like Suzuki any day. There isn't one within 40 miles of me, and from what I can see of the pictures, the car is rudimentary, no flash that would want me to prefer it over my Ford. Motorweek had a show last week 8 family sedans under 25K, winner was Hyundai Sonata, runner up the anemic Camry.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    FWIW, Edmunds.com is estimating the base G25 will start at just under $30k, with no options. That seems realistic given the $33k+ starting price of the G37.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2011/infiniti/g25/101276758/optionsresults.html?actio- n=2
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    There are no wagons (well almost none), it's a "crossover".
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    What planet did you price that G37 on?

    Glad to be of service :)

    Cars Direct.com has the G37 for:
    CarsDirect Price: $30,292. This includes the $865 delivery charge, so if we remove that to get an official "advertised" price(since delivery varies as well across the U.S.), that's $29,427.

    This is the base model, but it's about as nicely equipped as a #4 or #5 package Regal. . IMO, having sat in both and driven both, the Regal closest to the G37 is the CL5 option. Sorry, rear side airbags and premium audio(ie - same as basic in the Infiniti.) are a bigger factor than a sunroof. I also hate sunroofs anyways - don't know why GM is not making it a separate option. Safety wins here and GM's lack of adding in the full airbag package on the CL1 -CL4 packages isn't going to go unnoticed with savvy buyers.

    Same site, CL5 option Regal is $29,600. Sans delivery to compare equally, we get the following:

    Base G37 minus delivery charge: $29427
    Regal CL5 minus delivery charge: $28950.

    The G37 actually is a whopping $477 more than the Regal if I want out today and compared both. The Base G25 will for sure end up 2-3K less that the base G37 so as not to hurt G37 sales. That puts it right in the middle of Buick's pricing range.

    Now, true, that price does include a $1000 cash incentive, but with the Regal being new(no incentives - MSRP only) and the 2011 G37s coming out in a couple of months, you really will see pricing like this for the next 5-6 months.

    It's clearly made as a smart marketing move to hit GM right between the eyes. Offer 1-2K in incentives during the summer and then 3-5K on new old stock models in the fall.

    Toyota might have said that they don't want GM to fail, but the other Japanese companies don't seem to care at all and are going for blood.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    First, the base Regal (CXL) has MORE equipment than the base G37. So I have no idea why you are comparing the CL5 Regal to the base G37 (well, I do have an idea...). If anything, it should be the base Regal to the G37 Journey--the least expensive trim to offer essentials such as heated seats (gotta have that with leather). And that still doesn't get you turn-by-turn navigation, 18" alloys, and other features that are on the base Regal.

    Second, the Regal isn't even available to buy yet, and is a 2011 model, and you are comparing it price-wise to the 2010 G37, which has been around in the same form for some time and thus has large discounts available. Obviously there won't be discounts available on a car that isn't even shipping to buyers yet. After the Regal hits the market, we'll have a better idea of the actual sale prices.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The base Regal has a LOT of missing content compared to the G37. Head over to GM's or better yet, Cars Direct's site and check it out. And the power, seats, and overall handling isn't even close. The G37 feels like a proper luxury sedan and the GM feels like a C class or Volvo - ie - nice, but not really there. The cheap GM leather is a major immediate difference. GM adds a lot of frills, but where it counts, the Regal is underpowered, has less safety equipment and substance, and just falls flat. You can tell that they are trying, but it feels like a second rate attempt.

    The Regal at Cars Direct that I can order NOW does not offer Nav other than with the CL6 option. The side rear airbags aren't an option except on the CL5 and CL6. If you look carefully, you see that it's a typical GM "package" trick and that no dealers are carrying the lower-end models. The local dealer near me has ONE base model and a couple of others, but 90% of the selection is CL5 and CL6s.

    On that point,

    I can buy a Regal now - they hit the dealers lots here in California this last week. Actual test-drive and comparison. And the GM just feels lacking. The ***146HP difference*** is immense and perhaps the biggest thing that sticks in your mind, though. Since they look visually similar and are about the same size(they will be cross-shopped!), it really feels as if you are comparing, say, a base E Class sedan the the AMG version. The power is jaw-dropping if you drive the G37 right after the Regal.

    Then you see the *this* close actual price. No red-blooded person who wants a luxury car won't spend the extra bit of money for that much more power. The model year on the sticker is moot as well - since what I can buy today is a Regal or a G37 (or a TSX - another nail-biter for GM's management)

    Sure, the Regal will have a ~30K GS out in a year, but that won't be more powerful than the G37 even then, and the G25 will be out in a couple of months by the look of it. That's the real nail in the coffin. It's also likely to eviscerate the Accord V6, IS250, and other similar 25-30K midsize sedan sales. Infiniti is pulling out its big guns now and there's going to be a lot of collateral damage in this segment. (note I'd have said Accura, but after their refresh recently, they also are coming with a full set of newly sharpened teeth)
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418
    I have a similar list although add the new Kia Optima as well. I might like the styling on that more than the Sonata, we will see.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    edited May 2010
    Check your facts again. Every Regal has turn-by-turn navigation standard. Have you ever heard of OnStar? A great safety features. G37 doesn't have that, either.

    And the power, seats, and overall handling isn't even close. The G37 feels like a proper luxury sedan and the GM feels like a C class or Volvo - ie - nice, but not really there.

    So why are you comparing a V6 sports sedan to a mid-sized family car? As I said before, the Regal and G37 aren't natural competitors. I don't think many people (with a few exceptions, such as you) will cross-shop the Regal and G37. The Regal competes against the cars listed to the right. Against those, its power and features are very competitive.

    If you want a car with power and handling like the G37 has, go buy one--don't even THINK of a car like a Regal. Although consider, if the G37 is so great, why the huge discounts and incentives on it? :confuse:

    Edit: Also, a "proper luxury sedan" would offer heated seats with leather standard. An economy car, like my 2004 Elantra, might offer non-heated leather seats--which it has! But it only cost $13k new too. But it does have heated mirrors, which don't seem to be on the base G37 even at $20k more. :sick:
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    Here's another site that does price comparisons but allows you to choose base models, maximize/minimize differences, etc. It does a good job of model comparisons.

    True Delta
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    new Sonata's lately.
    Black is popular, the best color imo, plus silver too.
    silver doesn't work as well, especially the back view.
    considering it is not a design that immediately stands out, like a Prius, i am surprised to see so many. most vehicles seem to have to hit a 'critical mass' to start noticing them.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    ...since delivery varies as well across the U.S.

    I am pretty sure all manufacturers have a flat rate across the US for delivery charge, it does not vary by location. The delivery charge should be included in price comparisons, not that it makes much of a difference.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Yeah, I forgot the Optima. In fact, because the styling on the Sonata is already wearing a little thin with me the Optima might just be a better choice as it has a more Europeon, classic look to it at least from the limited pictures I've seen. Of course, I loved the Sonata when I first saw the pictures too but am not liking it as well now that I've seen them on the road.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Exactly right. A car made down the street will still have the $700-$900 delivery charge as the one made in Japan or whereever. He may have been talking about the huge dealer fees that it seems are terrible in Georgia and Florida just to name a couple that I hear a lot about.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Right. The G37 is priced and a competitor to the Lexus350 and the Acura TL. The new G25 will go against the IS250 and the TSX. I believe Buick is trying to catch both ends of the market and time will tell if that is a good strategy. They appear to want the Regal to appeal to the midsize buyers at the right while at the same time I think they are trying to go against the TSX, IS and G25 at the upper end of the Regal price structure.

    From everything I came across on the new G25 it will be priced at about $29500 and will be pretty much(if not exactly) a base G37 with a smaller engine and probably the same option packages. Infinitis are great cars but have always suffered MPG wise. If they can capture both the luxury buyers that want a fairly sporty car without having to have 300+ hp and the associated low MPG I think they can have a winner with G25.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Auto Pacific's Customer Satisfaction Award for 2010 along with the Lincoln MKT. Ford is for real and Suzuki just flat out hit the nail on the head with the Kizashi.

    What is Auto Pacific?
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    True, but I have yet to ever see a base G37 on the lot for sale! The only time I see one of them is as a service loaner car by the Infiniti Service Department. All the G37's on my lots up here in NJ, all come with AWD and the premium package at the very least so your talking about $39 some thousand on the window!

    Can't wait to see the G25 when it comes out!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Auto Pacific's Customer Satisfaction Award for 2010 along with the Lincoln MKT. Ford is for real and Suzuki just flat out hit the nail on the head with the Kizashi.

    What is Auto Pacific?


    My thoughts exactly....

    As for the MKT....it has been a bust....Lincoln dealers are stuck with them. All it offers is a snazzy engine (3.5L Ecoboost). Lincoln as a company is still struggling...
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    There are no wagons (well almost none), it's a "crossover".

    Guess again. Right here on Edmunds if you look at new cars, and click on Station Wagons, list is 2011 Lincoln MKT.

    Wagons

    The Flex/MKT is indeed a wagon, a little taller, and not as long, but definitely a wagon. It reminds me a LOT of the 1979 LTD Wagon I had. It is not a crossover, the Edge is a crossover, the Freestyle was a crossover, but this is a wagon. The only difference is the tailgate goes up instead of down.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    It's often hard to put vehicles like that into a single category, and more & more manufacturers are labeling vehicles "crossovers," some of which I really, really think are wagons or minivans... but saying you drive a wagon isn't hip, while driving a crossover leaves your cool factor nebulously intact.

    MODERATOR
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    Share your vehicle reviews

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Yes, exactly...just as previously your cool factor remained intact, if you drove an SUV, or maybe it was more your manliness factor in that case, even if said SUV was really a minvan with hinged doors, rather than sliding.

    Acdii also did not look closely enough, missing the fact that "crossover" is just a subcategory of "wagon" here on edmunds, go here:

    http://www.edmunds.com/finder/type.wagon.html;f=%2Busein:new?cat=Wagon&reFacet=c- artype:Wagon&p=cvehicledata%23%23-1%23%23-1~~f66||436172~~f78||5761676f6e~~q

    now look on the right side for "VEHICLE TYPE", and see this list:

    Diesel
    Crossover
    Factory Tuner
    Flex Fuel
    High-Performance
    Luxury
    Performance
  • greatlakesjrgreatlakesjr Posts: 109
    Yeah, I forgot the Optima. In fact, because the styling on the Sonata is already wearing a little thin with me the Optima might just be a better choice as it has a more Europeon, classic look to it at least from the limited pictures I've seen. Of course, I loved the Sonata when I first saw the pictures too but am not liking it as well now that I've seen them on the road.

    Purely subjective of course but the new Sonata never appealed to my wife or I even at first glance. We liked the more conservative look (and $5,000 discount) of the 2010 model and, in fact, purchased one a month ago. Great, great car and can only imagine how nice the added features and MPG on the newer model must be.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    edited May 2010
    Don't forget the Regal CXL lists at $27k and that includes quite a few luxury features including leather. That's many thousands less than a comparable Lexus, Acura, Audi, and MB.

    Yep, that car will be on my short list when I'm ready to buy. Until then, I'll be watching customer satisfaction and repair records. I owned a German made Buick back in the day, and the car was nice, if a little rattly and unreliable.
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Posts: 216
    The fully equipped Regal they show in the ads retails for $38k, fyi.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    edited May 2010
    I think you must mean the LaCrosse. The only Regal they are advertising and selling now is the I4 CXL which has a base MSRP under 27k and heavily optioned it may get to 32k, fyi.

    Check Edmunds new cars prices.
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Posts: 216
    Yeah, I meant the Lacrosse. Sorry.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418
    Getting back to the 2011 Optima, this commercial feels like it's geared towards what I want:

    2011 Kia Optima Commercial

    Minus those rims, and plus a turbo engine.

    Sporty, stylish, but you can fit a child seat in the back and there is room for adults back there too. On top of which you're not spending BMW money. Now the question is, where will this car (in turbo) top out? 30k? 32k? If I'm hitting 32 or up I have to cross shop with an A4 or G37 to see if that extra few thousand buys me enough car to be a value advantage.

    I've only seen it in that color by the way, why is that? Do they feel this color is the best representation of the car?
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