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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418
    Every midsize sedan in this segment cracks 31k for their V6 model fully loaded. This is no different, except better gas mileage. That's number one, number 2, you're comparing MSRP with what looks to be invoice prices from carsdirect. Is that intentional? If so you'll have to go through your logic on that because I'm not seeing it.

    For instance the G37 Journey (A car I'd love to have, but I'd need AWD) MSRP is 34,450. Tack on premium package and MSRP is over 37k.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    edited June 2010
    Is that with destination chg? Usually that's around $750 or thereabouts. That would put the loaded Optima turbo at just shy of $32k which is what I've been saying over on the 2011 Sonata forum. A lot of money for either an Optima or a Sonata IMO.
  • midas69midas69 Posts: 118
    John Krafcik stated on Thursday night that the base Turbo Limited would be $28K. Base SE Turbo would be $25K.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I appreciate where you are coming from and it's a legit comparison but please compare apples to apples. You say "out the door". In these forums out the door means total price of vehicle including tax, title, license, dealer fees, etc. I don't think you meant that but that's what the common definition of "out the door" means on these forums.

    Next you compare discounted street price to brand new model MSRP? That is about as unfair as you can get. Ok, for a a few weeks the Sonata/Optima turbo will probably sell close to MSRP but after a month or two they will start to be discounted as well and the price will come down to $28k or $29k. Still a lot but it will get cheaper as time goes by.

    I totally agree with you though that the price is getting up their for these cars and I would certainly do a lot of comparison shopping of the new Infiniti G25 and Buick Regal. The thing that Hyundai has going for it is the warranty and the MPG combined with the HP on regualar gas. That's a pretty good combo but they are not in the same league as far as quality of materials go when compared to Infinitis, Acuras or Buicks
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    edited June 2010
    Where was that? Do you have a direct quote or a link? The last statements I saw in print that were from Krafcik just a few days ago were that the turbo models would start at $26k to just under $30k. If they have adjusted the price that would be great but I didn't see anything lately that differs with I saw in print earlier.

    If you do have a link or something, please let us know. Also, is the decked out Optima going to be well over $1k more than a loaded Sonata?
  • midas69midas69 Posts: 118
    Unfortunately not a direct link. It was in a chat session and I don't see any transcripts printed anywhere. But there were many Hyundai owners involved in the chat that can verify what was said. Remember, take my $28K base Limited and add NAV and you get to your $30K. I can't explain the difference between the $25 we were told on Thursday and the $26K you read.

    Of course these guys like to play games with numbers. You might have seen 'just under $26K' and $25,999 might still be considered $25K by some people trying to make a marketing point.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    I was all set to buy an LTZ but I wasn't happy with the two tone beige/brown and black. I ended up with an LT with the black interior / light wood trim. It looks very sharp with the black suede/leather seats.

    Over all the interior is impressive, it was shocking to me and everyone who drives in my Malibu that GM has come so far with interiors.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I've been impressed with the brand new GM interiors. The new Buicks are very nice, the new Malibu, the new Equinox and even the new Cruze's interior looks pretty good but have never been able to sit in one as they have always been up on pedastals or locked up at the auto shows. They are slowly getting better. Like backy said, none are hideous but some are better than others.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I did the Optima price estimator and got a different price than you did. Mine came out lower. Plus I did it twice and the options one time were $1900 each and the next time I did it both options were$2000. I put in the same zip code each time so I'm a little leary of that estimator. The KIA site caveats that they don't vouch for it's accuracy as its a third party site.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I posted the direct quote from the article in the Sonata forum. But whatever the prices are it appears that a loaded Optima or a loaded Sonata with the Turbo is going to be right around $31k give or take a few hundred. Many times in conversations the auto execs like to just give the price of the vehicle and don't inlcude the shipping charge which can add almost another $1k to it.
  • midas69midas69 Posts: 118
    Yea, the whole destination charge thing is all BS nowadays. At one time the cars were all made in Detroit and the further away from Detroit you were the higher the destination charge was. Now it's the same price no matter where you are. At this point it's no longer a reflection of any real cost and is no different than any other expense in the manufacturing process. They don't have a separate welding charge. They don't have a separate labor charge. Just roll it all into the final price and stop playing games.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    edited June 2010
    I agree, it's just a marketing thing so they advertise a lower pricepoint. It's been a very long time since the destination chgs were different for a particular vehicle. I don't remember exactly when they change but I think it was many, many years ago. They averaged them out so somebody in North Overshoe, Alaska wouldn't have to pay an arm and a leg to get a new car.

    At least the gov makes them put it on the maroney sticker so it's clearly reflected even if they don't have to mention it in their media advertsing.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,729
    Actually, what I said was, the interiors of the Sebring and Avenger ARE hideous. :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    I knew you mentioned hideous, just didn't have the context right. I wouldn't say they are hideous, just cheap. :D
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited June 2010
    1: A new car/new model almost never has any reduction from MSRP for the first year. This is understandable.

    2: I chose those two as they essentially form a barrier that the others have to get past. IF you have 30K for a vehicle, you'll test-drive at least one of those two, almost guaranteed. There's a reason that Toyota sets the price of the Camry at 25-27K. Because if they touch 30K, it's game over compared to the TL and others in the real entry-level luxury sport sedan segment. And we're not even talking about the upcoming G25, which should just hit a 28K or so street price.(yes I know I said out the door, but Cars Direct has a nominal paperwork charge and that's it - almost like a fleet sale)

    I use them as a yardstick because their prices are pretty reasonable and there are few games, if any. Some dealers might beat them, of course, but most won't.

    3: And of course, the image. Hyundai (and GM and others), as muich as they want to, aren't there yet. They are getting closer, but go test drive a G37 journey. It feels like a BMW. It's solid as a brick, fast, luxurious, and everything oozes refinement and analness by the designers. Then everything else you drive for the next week gets compared to it. Usually along the lines of "for 2K more, I can have the G37..." :P And not to be dismissed, either, the TL is large, gorgeous, and has every last feature standard that you'd want. It's like a super-loaded Camry V6 with all the goodies and then some. Standard. It's not as sporty or "Euro" as the G37, but I'd take one over a Cadillac or a Mercedes for refinement and a nice quiet ride any day. At 30K, it's a GM killer if there ever was one.
  • midas69midas69 Posts: 118
    You must live in a strange area, and I don't mean that to be offensive. For my zip code (60634) CarsDirect lists the 2011 Sonata Limited with NAV at $27.115, which is about $2K more than I paid back in March. The 2010 Acura TL with NAV they show at $35,004. That's almost an $8K difference. The Infiniti G37 with NAV is slightly higher than the TL at $35,362.

    Even if the Turbo package adds $3K to the Sonata or Kia, the prices still aren't going to be that close.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418
    Well since the actual prices seem to be a bit contested, I'll just say this, if a loaded Sonata turbo with NAV is 30k MSRP that's a bargain. If it's 31k that's about even with the competition and if it's 32k it's butting up against losing a "value" status if not outright overpriced.

    Here's what I'm getting for the competitions V6 loaded vehicles. I didnt include things like headrest DVD players. Mostly just typically equipped options on their top of the line V6:

    2010 Honda Accord EX-L V-6 4dr Sedan w/Navigation (3.5L 6cyl 5A) $31,105

    2010 Nissan Altima 3.5 SR 4dr Sedan (3.5L 6cyl CVT) $31,965

    2011 Toyota Camry XLE 4dr Sedan (3.5L 6cyl 6A) $31,475

    So again unless all of the big 3 in this segment are outpricing themselves and driving people to their upper tier Infinitis and Acuras, Sonata seems to be placed just right if it is in fact 30k. If it's 32k they are overpricing it.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,729
    Yes. Hideously cheap. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,729
    ...but go test drive a G37 journey. It feels like a BMW.

    It should--it's priced like a BMW.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    so true man! In all the years of car shopping and even just looking at cars, I have never, ever seen a TL or G37 on the lots with prices that low! Never! They are always at least semi loaded up and certain accessories added to them. So the prices, in fact are a few thousands more than those prices he listed!
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    Sorry man, but those are apples to oranges comparisons. A TL and G37 DOES NOT compete against the Sonata nor do I think that someone would ever cross shop them.

    Sonata - Accord - Altima - Camry - Fusion - Malibu - Legacy - Mazda 6

    Those are the more accurate comparisons
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Yeah, I gave you that one!
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    It is apples to oranges but I, for one, would cross shop them. I have an Infiniti and love it. If I can dicker and get a comparable equipped G37 for within $4k of Hyundai I would do it all day long. Problem is that when you equip them the same with NAV and all the street price difference is at least $7k and puts it in a different league. However, the new G25 is going to be very interesting. If they simply take the G37 Journey w/premium pkg....stick a small v6 in it, call it the G25 and if the street price is about 30k then that would be something that would be very tempting.

    I don't know where to put the Maxima in that scenario except out to pasture. I would rather have a v6 Altima(regular gas, 27mpg hwy) decked out for $27k(street price) or the Infiniti G25 for a couple of grand more than the Maxima. I love the styling of the Maxima but by coming out with the G25, Nissan is kind of forcing it's own hand with the Maxima IMO.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,322
    Isn't the Optima bigger than the G37 ? How does it compare size-wise with the Infiniti M? I really like the G's but they seem a bit small for a couple of oldsters. Now the M gets my pulse up a bit. Problem is the cost. I believe folks were buying 2010 M's for mid-thirties before the new 2011's debuted. Had i been in the market then may have given them a serious look. Bad timing.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    You're right. They are quite different automobiles but to my knowledge are both midsized 4dr sedans. The G37 is a smaller sport sedan while the Sonata and Optima are midsized family sedans. The M is so far removed pricewise from those other cars that it's not worth discussing. You're right again that there were(and are) some fantastic prices on the 2010 model Ms but even then I think the street prices were more to the high 30s.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,322
    Saw a couple of 09 M35x sedans -- less than 10k miles cpo for low 30's.In 15 months when my murano lease runs out may check something like that out. Very plush -- will have to test drive one next year.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Yeah, because of the model change on the 2011 you should be able to get a sweet deal on 2010 CPO. However, don't know if you've noticed or not but there are very few Infiniti dealers that advertise CPO vehicles or even have them. If you're near one that does you're lucky because Infiniti has one of the best CPO programs IMO.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I def hear what your saying about the Max. I have a 2010 and love it and it was better than the Altima in many different areas. But if the G25 was out at the time I was shopping for a car last year I might have made a different decision. Will be interesting to see how the G25 sales and if Maxima sales then lower or not.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Yeah, I really like the Maxima. It seems like it should have an Infiniti tag on it almost. Both the exterior and interior are very sharp and upclass IMO. I just refuse to pay that much for a Nissan. I always thought Infiniti should have kept the I30 and I35 because that was basically what the Max is today except for the CVT.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited June 2010
    You must live in a strange area, and I don't mean that to be offensive. For my zip code (60634) CarsDirect lists the 2011 Sonata Limited with NAV at $27.115, which is about $2K more than I paid back in March. The 2010 Acura TL with NAV they show at $35,004. That's almost an $8K difference. The Infiniti G37 with NAV is slightly higher than the TL at $35,362.

    Zip code here is Los Angeles. I think that's pretty "normal"(even if the city itself isn't)

    I just stuck in the basic Journey model with no extra options and got $30-31K. If you want to pay $5-7K for chrome and excessive bling as well as $2000+ for a navigation system hardly any better than a $200 Garman you can stick in your pocket(let alone use a *map*) - that's your money I guess. But if anyone here goes to CarsDriect and clicks on "G37 Journey" the initial price before options is very close to what I posted. I chose it because it has a few nice features and is only 1K more than the base model. I really recommend the wood trim. It transforms the interior to look a lot more like a proper luxury car.

    The TL is similar. I chose it over the TSX because it's a better vehicle for 1K more. Moonroof? Leather? Fog Lights? Fold down seats? Premium Audio? All standard. Unlike most of the competition, you don't need the high-end trim line plus nav and all the rest to get those options. (GM is hideous here - sometimes not giving you side airbags or a proper rear diff and so on unless you get the highest trim. 25K cars with 5-8K in options have been known to happen)

    Option 1: TL without technology package: $31883(delivery included)
    Option 2: TL with technology package: $34804(delivery included)
    The *ONLY* difference is the navigation system and some fancy gimmicks like rear view camera and push button ignition and so on. I mentioned this as well because it's the best example that people are likely to run across and cross-shop, as Acura only sells option 1 and option 2. $31K advertised in the paper gets people thinking when they are looking at cars like a Camry V6($29K) or the new Regal(also $29K). There is a strong impulse with most people to jump up a level if they can versus optioning out a lower-end vehicle. Even if it's just their perception. They also like the idea of everything included and just having to pick the color.

    Remember that the real comparison here is in the mind of 20-25K sedan owner who wants a bit of luxury this time around. To them, the base models really don't need anything extra ("better car than I've ever owned") and it's a nice status symbol over a jellybean Camry. Stretching the budget 2K is very likely to happen. And, yes, the interior IS better and plusher than the Camry. The TL really does feel like a Mercedes inside(actually better as the leather is real), and that's not lost of the buyers, evidently, since sales are strong. Apparently a lot of people are cross-shopping the TL and stepping up a level.

    As for size, the G37 is comparable to the others in actual use. The rear seats have more space in the back than a Buick, and roughly equal to a Camry, at least to by rear end it does. :P And the leather is super-comfy. I could sit for hours in the rear seats. Conversely, with the Regal, all I want to do is get OUT the second I get in the rear. :P

    Of course, the real lynch-pin here is when you drive the G37. It has a massive amount more power than the 25K+options vehicles in actual driving. (over 100HP more than the new Regal!) 328HP is an eye-opener for a lot of people who've never driven anything more powerful than a typical midsize sedan.
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