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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,742
    Great post dash. I agree with you on the appearance. While most sedans in this segment are pretty similar, it is small differences that are noticed. The new passat's styling is not offensive, but is quite bland and pedestrian. The Optima's windows and headlights are more aggressive, and the taillights are aggressive with the wraparound, while the passat's taillights are conservative.

    VW is nuts if they think they are going to win big market share with this strategy. Let's see - a decontented German car, bland styling, lousy dealer network, subpar reliability, and expensive repairs. The things we loved about VW (interiors, quality, styled a bit different) are gone, but the things we don't like (expensive repairs, dealers, reliability) are not fixed! Right, everybody will be flocking to buy these! :surprise:
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,278
    well, I like this passat way more than the current mile. And IMO, the exterior just needs to be repsectable looking (and nicely conservative is fine, since some "wow" designs don't age well). The interior is way more important in the design equation.

    so I am fine with that styling, especially in a darker color.

    and I don't really see why it is a big deal providing an entry level (aka cheap) model to get more buyers into the fold. Not like they will sell all that many anyway.

    IIRC, the prior generation offered a basic model. Cloth, no moonroof, manual seats, etc.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited January 2011
    Have you seen and sat in the new Passat, in order to determine the interior quality and overall quality is below that of the class? How does its content compare to the rest of the class? How does it drive? How reliable will this new design from the new US factory be?

    I don't know where you've been the past decade or so, but VWs haven't been anything special in the styling department for a long time. The previous-gen Jetta was compared to the Corolla, for example. And while the CC is quite fetching (as a lower-cost Mercedes knock-off), the previous Passat was pretty bland. As is almost every other car in this class... including the top sellers.

    Personally I am going to wait until I can see, sit in, and drive the new Passat (or at least read several professional test drive reports) before I decide whether VW is crazy or not.

    P.S. I love my local VW dealer. Have bought two cars from them. Great sales experiences, great service.

    P.P.S. The current Passat has average reliability according to CR.
  • IMHO Kia takes place of Pontiac in new world order. It is designed to look sporty, gauges I assume are red, suspension is artificially firmer and even lifeless electric steering is probably artificially heavier and etc. Of course Kia is higher quality and has more modern engines than Pontiac but it is the same approach as Pontiac - take Chevy and make it sporty looking. So take Hyudai make it looking sporty, add red gauges and driver oriented dash and you get "sport"-sedan. Of course there is nothing sporty about Optima, it looks sporty, true, but it is all about style. Did Pontiac survive? Kia is not going to put crappy interiors or pushrod engines in cars like Pontiac did but still it begs the question - will Kia survive, can it compete with Mazda and Ford? Eventually it will push both Ford and Mazda to come up with better designs. But Ford and Mazda will always make better designed and more sporty cars.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2011
    Some of the posts supporting Kia over VW, are making assumptions in a few key areas I'd say. Does the Optima have the German taught yet compliant, quiet, confidence inspiring ride and handling? Has the VW retained those characteristics? I would wager it must have if it is to remain competitive.
    I also feel that having more engine choices within a model, affords exclusivity that the other has more difficulty competing with. Just having an optional diesel, is huge to many of those considering either of those cars. And on the same front, while the Korean 4 banger makes pretty decent power and torque, it is still only a 4 and will not run as smooth as the 5 cylinder. I also suspect that if you drove both spiritedly, the 2.5 will deliver better economy. There is an old saying...no replacement for displacement. And in this case that displacement also includes and entire extra cylinder to spread the chore around.

    Give me the one that doesn't have red lit instruments and controls...oh wait...they BOTH do :(

    What is this unbelievable attraction to red backlighting? Just let Audi be Audi and carry on the rest of us with white on blk or blk on white, or blk and blue. Soooo much easier on the eyes at night. And cars that have a mix of red in the centre with blue tach and speedo...do they really think that looks natural and good? But don't get me wrong, I'll take as little red as i can get at the expense of good looks one way or the other...especially when the steering wheel controls are also glaring red in my face. There is nothing peaceful or comforting about that. Surely I'm not the only one that doesn't understand their decisions on this anything but smooth, uniform, warm interiors?

    And while I am on the verge of a rant...I wish they all would bring back individual ticks on the option page on these items. At least for these popular big ticket options...not everyone wants ALL of these, yet many of us want some.
    - sunroof
    - std vs auto
    - leather seats
    - heated seats - but don't make me buy leather...even if I might appreciate the smell, maybe I don't want to slide around in a seat at sometimes, and not want to sweaty-stick to it at others..
    - power seats - again, don't make me buy leather
    - auto dimming lights, especially rearview...no both...just let me dim my own frig lights will ya??
    - nav
    - auto climate - I HATE this, cuz so few are executed right.
    - high end audio
    - rain sensing wipers...oh sure...the bridge that just dropped some drips out of my peripheral vision and didn't bother me in the least, just triggered the wipers to SMEAR that huge mother of a bug splat, that before, was also not bothering where I needed to see, but now I must stop at the next service centre and wash the whole thing down. All just because some frig techno-worker thinks that if they out-automate their content, that the idiots will buy it up.
    - any rim bigger than 17" - do NOT force me to buy those expensive huge wheels, auto climate and a sunroof, just because I want heated, power seating!!! And something few shoppers are aware of, big wheels require a total change in gearing in order to strike a good compromise with FE and 'go'. And if you think big wheels, what the big deal? Well consider that those in winter climates don't have the big rubber options in true winter tires, and if they do find them, be prepared to spend large.

    There are others but I'm sure you get the idea.

    Tell me the truth (now I fully expect there will be some rowers against the current) just how many here, would appreciate being able to mix and match and be able to check off those options all independently of each other?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    The 3800 V6 pushrod motor was one of the best engines to ever come out of Detroit.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,278
    forget ala carte optioning. No one, certainly not an import, does that anymore.

    as to the red, BMW was the leader in this. There is actually a practical reason for it, in that it is easier for night vision (I believe it does not cause your eyes to react like white does). Pretty sure it is what airplanes use too, which is why BMW does it.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    Yeah I agree they were likely not going for sporty, but I still think it's too sedate at least for my tastes. Then again I may not be the target audience. I think when you see what a splash the Sonata made, and that styling is what I'd call polarizing (although not as much as say the new Acura TL), you need a sharp look to win buyers since the practical aspects are so close now for all the competition in this segment. The red and blue pictures I posted the other day though it doesnt look half bad. I think it will do ok, just not an exciting car and not much to draw people in to try it.

    As for Toyota I actually think the Camry exterior is pretty good actually, it's just the interior that literally shocks me with how much I dont like it. This is true for more than just the Camry too, the Rav 4 interior compared to the Honda CRV interior is what swung the decision for us to get the CRV.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Right, knew it was one of those German ideas.

    I sure don't agree it is easier at night. To my eyes, and others whom I have spoken with, it is harder to see.
    And even if you can dim down some of them, often they don't let you dim ALL of them.

    Really, with LED, it would be so EASY, to let the owner choose. Flick a switch for red, white or blue. So easy...
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,531
    The Optima certainly looks 'neater', but I have the feeling I'd rather be looking out of the Passat. The combination of the wide C pillar and low window on the Optima makes me worry about terrible rear visibility.

    But how many think this Passat plus the new Jetta will result in VW DOUBLING their sales the next several years, as predicted by their management??? I doubt it, extremely!
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    Kia and more to the point Hyundai have gotten a lot of praise for their new engines. The 2.0 T is sporty for this segment, at least as much as any of the Camcord V6's. It doesnt have to be a Ferarri, it has to look good, have some power to get on the highway, get great fuel economy and have all the amenities for a good price. That's why the Sonata is so successful.

    For you to suggest it's all about looking good is simply not the case.
  • If it is the same as Sonata don't you have the same problem as GM had with Pontiac? I agree that Optima looks better than Sonata, but other than style and red gauges (which are unfriendly to eyes at night) how it is different? Why every body criticizing GM for badge engineering now sing praises for Hyundai doing the same?

    BTW gauges in BMW AFAIK are not red but rather dark orange. It is a big difference.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    IIRC, the prior generation offered a basic model. Cloth, no moonroof, manual seats, etc.

    Yeah, but starting at $27K? Hardly a basic price...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    $27k is for the current Passat, which doesn't have a loss-leader trim. A few years ago, the Passat did offer a more basic trim w/o leather, moonroof etc.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Why every body criticizing GM for badge engineering now sing praises for Hyundai doing the same?

    Because the differences between the Hyundai and Kia are much greater than just a different nameplate (which GM did for decades when sharing models between Pontiac, Olds, Buick, and Chevy). There aren't any body panels shared between them, and their experiences behind the wheel are also different.

    And for the record, red gauges are used in fighter planes for lower fatigue on pilots at night, and having spent many nights behind the wheel of older GM and Ford products (both green), Nissan (orange and white), and VW (blue), both my last Mazda6 and current Mazda6 have red backlighting (with blue halos behind the speedo and tach on the current Mazda6), and I've never had any problems with eye strain or fatigue. I actually prefer the red over anything else, and was one of the biggest reasons why I bought another Mazda6.
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    I agree with. You on the red gagues but that's minor and just personal preference. As to differences: completely different sheet metal, different tuning, different interiors (not just cosmetc), and Optima offers things Sonata does not like coolest seats, panoramic sunroof, supervision cluster, heated steering wheel and soon the UVO system which is like Ford's SYNC.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    First, if you have young eyes and/or don't require reading glasses, then when you do...then you will know why i said what i said.

    Plus red has to be done right. Orange is easier on my eyes.

    While I like a fair bit about VW's, I do not like how they do red. And the lights on all the centre stack controls are teeny tiny little things that are just a maze of red dots at night to those who need reading glasses. You quite literally can't tell recirculate from fan speed. Once you get to know the car, it becomes less of an issue tho. I used to have to keep a magnifying glass in right arms reach at all times at night on my Matrix, and the New Beetle I drove was way worse.

    And as rentals, I wonder how many accidents have happened due to people looking... straining to distinguish which button or control to press. And as cars become more complex inside, it just adds to the maze.

    I wonder if red bothers some people more than others? Maybe just coincidence but i have chatted with more people who don't like red than do. I think that is why it is a sore point with me as more and more brands are going red and all I can think is what gives??

    I think I could live with how Optima has done it..will know better in real life. As for the exterior, I much prefer the tidier handsome look of it over the Sonata.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,742
    I don't know where you've been the past decade or so, but VWs haven't been anything special in the styling department for a long time.

    Actually I thought the second-previous gen VWs were the best in appearance. The current passat looks too much like a Japanese car due to the circles in the taillights, and it wears it worse than the recent Jetta IMHO. VW moved from its best styling IMHO around 2004 or so to a sort of Asian appearance, and now to a bland appearance. That's what I mean by styling. And you add them getting bigger and decontented, and there you go.

    You can wait to sit in it to decide, but the repair costs, dealer network, and recent reliability issues are NOT changing quickly, so I don't see how this strategy can work, at least not very quickly.
  • Do you mean that Malibu, G6 and Aura had the same sheet metal and identical interiors? Are you serious or what? People simply hate GM because idiotic management, UAW and etc and were neutral to Hyudai until recently since it was newcomer. In fact Hyudai is no more different than GM - it has idiotic management too, militant unions are similar to UAW and it is largest company in Korea and government will never let it go down. Simply salaries in Korea are half of US so they can build stuff much cheaper. Germans and Americans cannot.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    edited January 2011
    What recent reliability issues are you referring to? On their sedans, like Passat and Jetta, or something else?

    As for repair costs, there's no costs for even maintenance for the first 3 years. I owned 3- and 5-year old VWs and had not one problem with them. Dealers are varied... there's good ones and bad ones, in every brand that sells mid-sized family cars. '

    And don't forget... it's not just de-contenting; it's de-contenting WITH a huge price reduction (about 25% for the base model). And the de-contented Passat is now comparable with base models from other makes, in equipment and price. Other makes, e.g. Toyota, have de-contented over the years without a decrease in price.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I think you are replying to the wrong person?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,742
    edited January 2011
    Do you mean that Malibu, G6 and Aura had the same sheet metal and identical interiors? Are you serious or what? People simply hate GM because idiotic management, UAW and etc and were neutral to Hyudai until recently since it was newcomer. In fact Hyudai is no more different than GM - it has idiotic management too, militant unions are similar to UAW and it is largest company in Korea and government will never let it go down. Simply salaries in Korea are half of US so they can build stuff much cheaper. Germans and Americans cannot.

    The difference between GM and Hyundai is that due to greater market share, more people were screwed by GM than H; H had about 10 fewer years of crap than GM, and H's recent efforts are more aggressive and producing better results faster than GM's. H didn't brag about cars that "were coming" for four years (like the Volt) before they really existed in the marketplace. H also didn't have public blowhards like Wagoner and Lutz. Also, H didn't require a US government bailout. Those factors probably account for most of the difference in animosity between the two companies.

    Also, you do realize that most Hyundai's are made in the US? So the labor rates in Korea are not the issue. That's just a smokescreen - the US makes cars competitively for the companies that are not strangled by the UAW.
  • I can also add that GM for years were using outdated technology in US. But they both produced crap, may be GM for longer period of time even though was well established company with long experience of making cars all over the world. Hyudai was in process of learning how to make cars and finally produced some results. Time will show how good new Hyudai cars are. GM still has no clue. Otherwise how it managed to put underpowered engine in near luxury car and instantly become behind competition. We will see how new Malibu will be done. Sonata set new standards and GM cannot afford to tolerate cheap stuff in their cars (like cheap interiors, cheap engines and etc) anymore.

    But wait until new Ford Mondeo arrives to US - it may reset standards to new level again. It will easily defeat Sonata, Optima and Passat, but may not be as cheap though.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,634
    And how do we know this...? Why do folks use the word "always" to just their opinions? There are only "2 always" that I can think of on the fly...the sun coming up & then the moon within 24 hours. So I'll ask the question again..."and how do we know this"?

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,634
    And it's HYUNDAI, not Hyudai. Not sure if you know this, since you keep spelling it wrong! Just an f y i.

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • I wasn't gonna post to report it but it was driving me nuts, though!

    And it's HYUNDAI, not Hyudai. Not sure if you know this, since you keep spelling it wrong! Just an f y i.

    It's Hyundai, not Hyudai. Pronounced Hun-Day. Oh, I'm just sure we're all in agreement on pronunciation, too. :sick:

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,742
    See, now I will argue (based upon sitting in the new Cruze at the auto show, but not driving it) that GM has made GOOD decisions on this car. I don't know how it drives, but based just upon the looks and the interior I saw (I'm sure the top of the line), this is easily the BEST small car GM has ever made. It looks nice, it's really nice inside. I don't really care if it is a bit underpowered and expensive, it is still a really good change for GM. Instead of high power with cheap bits, they have made a car that is lower power with more expensive bits, and it shows. Assuming reliability is decent, good job GM. :surprise:
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,278
    well, that's a compact class still. How does the mid size malibu stack up in the mid size class?

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,742
    well, that's a compact class still. How does the mid size malibu stack up in the mid size class?

    Malibu is almost competitive, but not quite there. When will a redesign be out?
  • dash5dash5 Posts: 417
    As far as the GM and Hyundai/Kia analogy, I have no personal vendetta against any car maker. Whoever makes a compelling car they have my interest. In fact the new Buick Regal made my "must see" list. Fact is though, as i was growing up GM was making some terrible cars. I owned a Pontiac Grand Am and.. it was what I'd call satisfactory. I much preferred the Toyota Celica, Honda Accord and VW Jetta I've owned.

    Right now Hyundai/Kia is putting out some really solid products. I also like a lot of Fords stuff. The others are hit or miss. If you would've asked me 5 years ago I might be saying something else.
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