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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited March 2011
    I would not make any conclusions on car selling price after looking on auto show MSRP pricing. The fact of the matter that 4 cyl Camry LE could be easily purchased for around $19K before fees and taxes. Toyota now has $1250 cashback or 60 month 0% financing + $500 (I just looked up this info on Toyota website). I don't want to sound like toyota ad person but aggressive pricing plus proven reliability track make Camry #1 selling sedan in the US.
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/03/sales-midsized-sedans-february-2011/

    And with Toyota Unintended Acceleration myth being officially dead, future sales will be even better then they already are.

    BTW Current model Camry is being made from 2007 and due for redesign for 2012 model year. No surprise that Camry looks a bit dated now comparing to competition. I'm sure that Toyota put a good effort in the next Camry generation, hope to see it soon.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    It needs a major redesign as the current model is awful. I had a 2009, and it was not a very good car. Sure it was reliable, but material wise, very cheap, it was also noisy and handled like one of those old cars you see in movies now that float all over the place on shockless springs. The Fusion is a much better built car and has higher quality material compared to the Camry. The only reason it sells more is people are too blinded by the past and wont even bother to look at the Fords. I was that way even though I had good Fords in the past. I gave Ford a chance and haven't looked back, in fact like it so much I bought the Flex, and man that is a great car.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    Everyone that can read knows you can get any car substantially below MSRP so the "news" the Camry can be had for $19k is not news of the breaking kind.

    The handling of the Camry is often denigrated by people that like a firmer response but is hardly as bad they make it out to be. Floaty like the cars of the sixties is really an huge exaggeration. It's a good car for people that want a soft, quiet ride and economical to maintain. The exterior styling is not that much different than many other midsize sedans and I've never found it to be ugly by any means. The interior, IMO, is where Toyota has really dropped the ball in recent years and not just in the Camry. They have cheapened their interiors with expanses of hard plastic and cheap switchgear to the point that it's a shame. The V6 has great power and gets very good MPG and is probably a better combo of power and frugalility than any other V6 midsizer normally discussed here.

    I've never owned one but my daughter just turned her 2009 in(company car) and during her 2.5 years and 70k miles of driving it she had 1 minor repairs under warranty, loved the JBL stereo and couldn't believe how fast it was when needed. Many people just like to slam the Camry because it's the Camry and has been number one in sales for a long time. There is no car in this group that is the best thing since sliced bread, including the Camry of course, but some would have you think so.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    I don't know why you call it awful, what exactly didn't you like about it? I own 2009 Camry and have no complains about it. Does what it's supposed to do. If I'd need more thrills I'd go with BMW but we are talking about $19K car here. I really glad that Ford finally got it's act together and started producing better cars but I'm not ready to jump the boat because Toyota didn't give me a single reason to do so. My second car is second generation Highlander, and man that is a great car.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    I'm not ready to jump the boat because Toyota didn't give me a single reason to do so

    Lying to the public and the government and actively covering up potentially fatal safety issues isn't a good reason?
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited March 2011
    You really behind the loop on that one. All it was a government assisted effort to discredit Toyota and scare people into buying Government Motors cars. It worked! Some Toyota car owners were selling their cars at giant loss because they were scared to death (hope you're a not one of them!). Toyota's image not as shiny as it was anymore even if not NHTSA nor even NASA found a thing.

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- An intensive 10 month investigation into possible causes of unintended acceleration in Toyota cars found no fault with the automaker's electronic throttle control systems, the Department of Transportation announced Tuesday (Feb 8).
    http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/08/autos/nhtsa_nasa_toyota_final_report/index.htm

    But NHTSA also mentioned another possible cause: drivers pushing the gas instead of the brakes.

    Many drivers may have confused the gas and brake pedals a problem that may account for "the vast majority" of the unintended acceleration incidents the agency investigated, NHTSA deputy administrator Ron Medford said at Tuesday's NHTSA press briefing.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,161
    >All it was a government assisted push to discredit Toyota and push people to buy Government Motors cars. It backfired badly though:

    You don't cite any support for either tenet. It was Toyota caused; it wasn't government pushed. And it didn't backfire.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,873
    Well, it didn't hurt Toyota sales of popular models.
    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

    Hard to argue with a strong positive YTD change vs. last year.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,161
    >positive YTD change vs. last year.

    Didn't most company's sales increase from last year?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,873
    Yes, but if any "campaign" had worked, one wouldn't expect to see a higher than average increase in Toyota sales. You'd expect to see people flocking to other manufacturers.

    Interestingly, when the Toyota story broke, industry analysts almost immediately predicted that if anyone, Hyundai would be the big winner. Appears to be playing out that way.

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  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    No matter what Toyota does, there are certain folks always posting complaints about them.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    It is not only Toyota, you can add GM to this list.

    And also Government was responsible for 9/11, established death panels, assassinated Kennedy and fabricated landing on the Moon.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited March 2011
    We only talk cars here. You can take all other interesting you topics to conspiracy theories boards.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,655
    Or could it be that folks just like Toyota products compared to all others. Doesn't make them wrong & if you like a Ford product(s), that's great for you. And your opinion about the quality in either car is just that...your opinion. Just because you are not a Toyota fan doesn't make the brand a bad decision for others. We'd have no problem getting another one if the right product came out...none what so ever. The Camry I rented last year was a quiet excellent riding vehicle and this was a rental with about 6k on the clock...great car!

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    I would not make any conclusions on car selling price after looking on auto show MSRP pricing.

    I wasn't.

    But as long as you want to talk discounts, I can go down to a local Ford dealer and get a Fusion SE for under $18k right now. Far superior car to the Camry, IMO. Or a Malibu for about the same money--again a superior car to the Camry I think. Even the once-woeful Chrysler 200 has upped its game and has a much nicer interior than the Camry now. If Chrysler can upgrade the interiors (and more, in the case of the 200 and other cars) of ALL of its vehicles in one year, why can't Toyota make the Camry more competitive (e.g. a higher-quality interior) in the five years the current design has been on the market?

    Toyota used to make the highest-quality cars in the market, inside and out. The 1992 Camry set new standards for quality in the mid-sized segment--in many ways it was comparable to a Lexus. If you compare almost any other mid-sized sedan to the Camry today, without rose-colored glasses, it's easy to see how far Toyota has slipped. The Optima is probably the best example, but there's others e.g. Mazda6, Sonata, Passat, and Legacy.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    If Chrysler can upgrade the interiors (and more, in the case of the 200 and other cars) of ALL of its vehicles in one year, why can't Toyota make the Camry more competitive (e.g. a higher-quality interior) in the five years the current design has been on the market?

    That's a damn good point. I sat in several Chrysler products at the auto show and was amazed at how much their interiors have improved overnight. Maybe Fiat influence, maybe just market pressure but they were very nice on the inside. Can't say much for their exterior styling and I wouldn't buy one just yet as I think they still have a ways to go quality wise. But, if they keep moving in the right direction they should be very competitive within a couple of years. Hopefully, they will last that long.
  • djm2djm2 Posts: 705
    Good Morning:

    Chrysler designs great vehicles, but that is where the process stops. --- Their engines and transmissions have a lot of issues as they age. ----(Do a search on the 2.7 engine.) ----- The transmissions in their vans are known to fail at an early mileage. ------ Chrysler, and Chrysler dealers look for any excuse NOT to honor their extended warranties. ---- I have looked at the Chrysler 300 for many years. It is simply a beautiful vehicle, but I will not purchase one because the dealers in my area of the country are know as "bottom feeders" in the automotive market place! Their service reputation is zero! ----- Best regards. ------ Dwayne ;)
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited March 2011
    I totally agree with you here. Toyota interiors could use a lot of improvement. When current Camry generation came up for sale back in 2006 Toyota knew that they were only game in town and their real competition was only Honda Accord so they allowed themselves to cut corners. I bought my 2009 Camry back in the beginning of 2008 and even then I didn't have much choice. As far as car itself it is typical Toyota and performs the way I expected. No thrills, reliable, comfortable, easy on gas - and this is what I was looking for when I bought it. It is really nice to have such an improved competition these days and I'm glad that domestic manufacturers finally came with cars that attractive to buyers. Also we all know that current Camry is in the end of it's production life so competing cars that came up on the market in a last year or two should try to be better since every car manufacturer uses Camry as benchmark. If I'd be on the market for a new car today I'd definitely look at all the choices that present. If I could wait for some time I'd wait to see next generation Camry before buying anything else, I'm sure it will not disappoint.
    image
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    edited March 2011
    If I could wait for some time I'd wait to see next generation Camry before buying anything else, I'm sure it will not disappoint.

    I doubt Toyota will improve the interior quality. I just got a chance to drive and looked at the inside of my uncle 2011 Sienna and I can say...I'm very disappointed with the quality with hard plastic on every corner. His old Sienna was a lot better inside.

    IMO, the quality in the 2011 Highlander (my brother has it) is marginal as well.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited March 2011
    I also own 2008 Highlander that pretty much the same as your brother's 2011 model. I agree that interior uses too much plastic but it doesn't bother me a bit because the rest of the car is top natch. That car came out in in the spring of 2007 (that's when I got it) so interior obviously dated. I'd expect Toyota to make some interior improvements for it's mid-life redesign done for 2010 model year but they decided to improve exterior instead. I guess Toyota feels that Highlanders sell as hot cakes and good as they are. For almost 4 years I've owned a Highlander, I've almost never seen it being advertised by local dealers in the auto section of local paper. That really surprises me, you could see ads for Camry, Corolla, Rav4 but never a HL. While interior in Toyota cars definitely lacks it is not a major deciding factor. It is what it is, buyers see it, and still buy a Toyota - your brother did. Toyota may not excel in interior, exterior, or handling comparing to other cars. It excels as a whole package and this is why they so hard to beat.

    BTW. I don't know why you're thinking that HL is a "marginal quality". For almost 4 years of ownership it didn't break down once and performs the way I expected. I don't want to start a conversation on HL quality here because it is not going to take us anywhere.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Posts: 749
    edited March 2011
    I just pointed out the Sienna and HL b/c Sienna is all new for this year but Toyota even tries to cut more corners and the HL just get a mid-life refresh with nothing exciting to the interior...just the minor outside changes (which is normal).

    IMO, I doubt Toyota will improve the interior quality of the new Camry. The new Camry will be more likely have the same amount of plastic as the current Camry or worst.

    Oh, when I said marginal quality, I mean the plastic...nothing more. ;)
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    Their only competition was the Honda Accord? Evidently you never looked at the KIA Optimas,Hyundai Sonatas,the Ford Fusions or the Nissan Altimas.
    All of those that I mentioned have been excellent value cars,especially after 2006.They also look better than the Camry,inside and outside.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    It's only aesthetics then, not quality.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    evidently they were not as good back then as they are today otherwise best selling cars would be KIAs, not Toyota. It's all matter of personal preference. I did look at my options and decided on Toyota. You can buy whatever your heart tells you.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Still, it's not rocket science to put soft, comfortable leather seats in a car like the old Park Avenue had. Nor is it such a stretch to put some soft cloth or other tactile materials on the doors and interior.

    What irks me is how you get an interior that looks like it was stamped and extruded on a robotic assembly line and then screwed and glued into place. It's the same feeling you get when you look at the stuff from IKEA. Sure, at the price, it's functional and all of that, but the thing with a Camry (or several of the current Hondas) is that you'd expect that with the Yaris, but the Camry is almost 50% more expensive and has the same interior.

    Adding manufactured "leather" to the seats and some fake wood trim doesn't solve anything, either. If anything, that's actually a downgrade because it often wears worse and feels less comfortable than the cloth seats did.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    edited March 2011
    Don't get a chip on your shoulder. It's just conversation. People on many forums including this one just like to bash Toyota, Camry or their particular hated brand of the month.

    Paraphrasing your comments might look like "Camry interior kind of sucks, exterior is so-so but they are comfortable, dependable and economical and lots of people buy them for the pluses and ignore the minuses because of reputation". I would agree you.

    However, reputation has been tarnished somewhat rightfully or wrongly. They (and Honda IMO) are resting on their reputations and not addressing the changing quality and selection in the midsize class. Same with Corolla in realtion to the compact class but that is another discussion. I just can't understand why they can't improve their interiors like Chrysler has just done. It is night and day and can't be tremendously expensive to do as I don't believe Chrysler has tons of money to waste. They felt it necessary to compete. Obviously, Toyota doesn't think that way and they seem to be satisfied with a "it's good enough" attitude.

    Camry might drive a little soft but IMO it has a lot of other things going for it. If they would improve their interiors greatly and exterior a little bit I would consider it if I was in the market for a midsizer.
  • samm43samm43 Posts: 195
    I often wonder why people have such an aversion to plastics use in a vehicle. The way I see it, these should be the criteria for plastics use. There are advantages on the exterior also, but it seems people are more concerned with interior use here for now.

    The correct use of plastics:
    - offers a substantial crash protection element that is very cost effective. Combined with correct windshield quality and installation, good interior dash and firewall steel and/or magnesium/aluminum dash bracing between lower A pillar areas, these all are instrumental in absorbing impact forces in a crash.
    - it's relatively light compared to cost
    - easy to clean and effectively clean as opposed to numerous plasticized or real chrome trim bits all over the place. Granted, some of these extraneous trim bits do give a certain presence and 3D depth, but also can become unglued or unattached and can be projectiles and impalers in a crash. Don't underestimate the importance of this. And the use of carpeting, while attractive when new will be difficult to keep clean unless they can make the portions removable and washable.
    - resists stains from spilt drinks and snacks
    - how well it resists static electricity compared to other choices that also has to meet these other criteria
    - offers impressive crack resistance from the huge temperature changes
    - doesn't create irritating reflections - everywhere from the windshield to your eyes from bits of chrome etc
    - usually easy to remove and replace
    - and is easily recyclable
    - and a good plastic has to do all this AND have good fire-resistance in an ideal world.

    Soft touch padding (on hard plastic beneath) can look and feel good and create more sound absorption, but is expensive to manufacture with the content that resists all (most) of the above, so is usually reserved for use in higher-end vehicles.

    Now I did say above, correct use of plastics. I am fully aware that sometimes there is a reflection on the windshield right where you look down the road, or a premature crack etc, but this is not the fault of the plastic. These are design and execution flaws and is surprising how often it is overlooked when they design and build a car. Sometimes a plastic will be used that does not stand up the way its intended life was supposed to and this can be due to sourcing outside parts bidding on too tight of a budget etc.

    I think what is more important than the amount of plastic used, is to look at previous cars and see how well they stood up over the test of time for the manufacturer that you are considering. This reflects on a vehicles overall down-the-road value both in actual and perceived value for that brand.

    Sam
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,991
    edited March 2011
    I don't think the problem is with plastics per se. Everyone knows that plastics are necessary. But it's the type, look and placement of the plastics that I think bothers a lot of people. It's similar to when people say "Well, the Optima has leather interior, just like the ES350". Sorry, but there are different grades of leather and a lot of difference in feel and durability between them and how well they are sewn and placed in the vehicle. Same with plastics.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    Plastics in a car never bothered me and I like fabric seats over leather or leatherette. I'm not denying that I'd like to have better looking interiors in my Toyotas but what I have is acceptable. For people who wants to spice up their rides there is plenty of cheap fake wood kits and other interior enhancements on eBay. Also Camry XLE or Highlander Limited have much nicer interiors, so having boring interior on lower trims most likely part of Toyota marketing strategy. Shell out few more $$$ and get better interior.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Lets see, the sunroof would stick, sometimes not even close. The dash had lighting along the radio cluster that couldn't be dimmed, so when driving in the fog at night the entire dash had to be turned off because the light from the middle of the dash was causing too much glare, and that is something others have noticed as well, not just an opinion to me. From day one it had wind noise on the drivers side that they couldn't correct. If I press the palm of my hand down on the middle of the seat I could feel the springs through the material, and I could feel them on my thighs too. After 13 months of driving the material on the seats were worn. The dash squeaked, and the passenger door rattled. It had sloppy handling, on a curve I can take at 60 in my F350 I had to slow to 45 in the Camry, or it felt like it would roll. Pretty bad for something that is HALF the weight of the 8000# top heavy F350.

    This was not some $19k car, this was a $27,500 car! I expect chincy material for a $19k car, but not for something that MSRP's for $30K.

    After putting 32,000+ miles on a Camry Hybrid, I will NOT recommend it to anyone except for some old people who drive slow to begin with. Apples to Apples the Ford Fusion Hybrid is hands down a far better car, it's reliability is tops, it gets better MPG, it has better handling, and the interior quality is superior to what the Camry has. Toyota has some serious catching up to do to get to where the Fusion and Sonata are at. Especially now that Hyundai has a Hybrid version.
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