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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400

    depreciation is under $600 a year! I have no plans to part with mine yet.


    KBB is very misleading. Toyota's do hold their value very well, however all cars, even Toyota's take a 20% hit in the first year alone.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    Enterprise selling a year old Sonata GLS with 20,000 miles on it wholesale for $18,000-$19,000 is a joke.

    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today. For years, critics of Hyundai have talked about low resale values. Now that sale prices, and resale values, have come up, that's a problem too for some folks.

    Prices of used cars in general have shot up the past couple of years, as the number of good used cars has dwindled (due to lower new car sales) and families with tight budgets look to stretch their car-buying dollars by buying used. So a 1-year-old Sonata for $18-19k asking price doesn't surprise me. I recently did an online search for used 2011 Sonatas within 500 miles of me, and the cheapest was $16.4k and that was for a stripped GLS with 30k miles--360 miles away. The cheapest with less than 20k miles was $17k. Many were much more than that. The used car market has changed. And Sonatas are better cars than they used to be and command higher prices than they used to bring.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today

    It is good news for Enterprise, if they can actually get that price. Remember, they are selling wholesale, not retail. If a dealer was selling one for $18,000-$19,000 retail, that means there is mark-up in the car for profit. If a dealer buys an abused Sonata from Enterprise wholesale, the dealer is stupid because the dealer would have to ask what a new one goes for. That is why it's a joke.

    A customer trying to trade a Sonata GLS to a dealer as ask $18,000-$19,000 for a trade value would get laughed at. It's the same thing.

    I know used car prices have shot up. I buy cars for my dealership and prices are outrageous. It's a great time for auctions and wholesalers to sell cars used cars and a bad time for consumers to buy them considering the great deals and zero percent being offered on many new cars.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400


    That's all? Is that trade or retail? What was the new selling price? Last time I looked at Highlanders, they were selling around $38-44K, $2k more than a loaded Hyundai Veracruz. I just looked up the paperwork when I bought the Flex. I got $25,850 in trade on the Veracruz, I paid $36k for it with the tax.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    In our area 2010 Accord costs $19K too at Hertz car sales. It is retail price and Hertz has no haggle price, so it is final price. I would buy used Honda over Hyundai any day whatever hype surrounds Hyundai today. I think price is not realistic. I would rather buy new car. I considered once to buy used former rental car and all of them had visible problems, even Camries. We bought new Camry instead on sale for LESS than former rental.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited May 2011
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400

    That's all? Is that trade or retail? What was the new selling price? Last time I looked at Highlanders, they were selling around $38-44K, $2k more than a loaded Hyundai Veracruz. I just looked up the paperwork when I bought the Flex. I got $25,850 in trade on the Veracruz, I paid $36k for it with the tax.


    So you lost $10K in 2 years on Veracruz. My Base model AWD Highlander was $26K + tax in June of 2007, I stated that in my original post. I think KBBs $23600 is too low for this car, it should be at list $23700.... :mad:
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    edited May 2011
    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today

    I don't know what idiot would buy a used car for a price of the new one but for the seller it never hurts to ask high. I just checked my local auto trader listing and 2010 GLS asking price is $15,563.

    sales ad

    2011 GLS is $16,998

    2011 Sonata

    I found these ads after 10 sec of searching, I'm sure there are better deals on used Sonatas out there. Also these just dealer asking price, I'm sure there is a lot of room for negotiation there.

    The truth is Hyundai still doesn't have high resale value even though their cars are much nicer then they used to be.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    For those who constantly claim that Detroit three is the largest provider of rental cars there is a wake-up call - consider what Hertz sells (and Accord's pricing at same time):

    http://www.hertzcarsales.com/Search?Distance=100mi&PostalCode=94546&pageSize=10&- pageNumber=1&#!&Makes=Honda&Distance=100mi&PostalCode=94546&pageNumber=1&pageSiz- e=10&Models=Accord&Years=2010

    858 Nissans
    798 Toyotas
    214 Mazdas
    55 Mersedes
    54 VWs
    23 Infinities
    22 Kias
    19 Chevys
    16 Hondas
    15 Mercurys
    8 GMC
    6 BMWs
    2 Fords

    Note that Hertz does not buy any Chryslers or Dodges. Absolute majority of Hertz fleet are Nissan and Toyota - two largest Japanese companies - and Mazda (which does not sale at retail anyway). Also note large presence of Mercedes. Number of Detroit iron is simply negligible.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    Since it was possible to buy a new 2010 Sonata GLS for under $15k (I know because I shopped them back then) and these 2010s can be 2+ years old (introduced in early 2009), $15,563 is pretty low depreciation IMO.

    I did find eight 2011 GLSes for under $17k within 500 miles of me. Price range is $16,744-$16,997. Best deal is a stripped one with only 8,000 miles for $16,995, but it's 330 miles away. All the others are also stripped (based on photos that show plastic wheel covers) and range from 20k to 33k miles. Since these stripped GLSes listed for just over $20k when new and were likely purchased at some discount, that's around $2,000 depreciation on these cars. So about 6-10 cents per mile depreciation in the first year, which is the worst year for depreciation on new cars. And these are the lowest priced in a 500 mile radius.

    And you think that is bad?
  • samm43samm43 Posts: 195
    Regarding the used vs new Sonata, another consideration if you are paying top dollar for a used one vs a new one, is that for anyone who puts much emphasis on the OEM extended powertrain warranty, it only applies to the first owner with Hyundai's.

    Sam
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    It really puzzles me why would anyone buy a used car for a price of a new one. It would only make sense for people with bad credit who can't get approved on a new car loan.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Why the private party ads are so low is simply because while it's always best to buy from a private party if you can (real paperwork, you can see the person's living style/other cars, etc), the dealers will only offer then *auction prices* for their trade-in currently.

    When the dealer is only offering them $13K(no joke) on that 2010 GLS, they'll gladly settle for low Blue Book.

    Fact: if you work for a dealership and pay a penny over auction prices for a trade-in that's not exotic or rare, you'll get your butt fired immediately. They don't even pay close to low Blue Book for most of their their cars now.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    That puzzles me too. But you can't get a new 2011 Sonata for anywhere near $17k today, and even $18k is unlikely. Those huge discounts are just not there any more, not on base Sonatas anyway. Could probably get a few thou off a loaded one. Some of the higher-priced used cars including Sonatas I see are Certified, with either a 10-year transferable powertrain warranty or even 10-year bumper-to-bumper. So sometimes the used cars have better warranties than the new ones!
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    Just looked in Today's Cleveland paper and 2011 Sonata GLS advertized for $17988, I think it's been selling at this price for a while now. There should be some negotiation room included included in that price.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,972
    edited May 2011
    Just because a dealer has an ad for a cheap price doesn't mean he has that car when you go to buy it. They are notorious for "we only had one, it was a stick and it's already gone". There used to be a Toyota dealer in the west suburbs of Chicago that did that all the time but I think the state stepped in because they don't do it anymore.

    I look at all the Chicago ads and the lowest prices shown for '11 Sonatas with auto trans are well over $19k. Altimas and Camrys have been consistently priced at about $1k lower. There may be some wiggle room on both. Honda dealers around here pretty much just show lease dollars so don't know what the price of the car is. I think your $17988 is probably for a stick model and, like I said, may be available once you get there. Some dealers don't include the shipping charge(stupid, I know) so you may have to add $800 or so to that price anyway.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    Was there the "only during a total eclipse of the sun" clause in the ad? ;) Some dealers love to add conditions to prices in ads that only a few buyers can meet. For example, some local Ford dealers have been running ads for awhile with super-low prices on Fusions, as little as $16-17k. Then you read the fine print and see the prices include "lease loyalty" and other special discounts/rebates that only some buyers qualify for. Many dealers advertise prices with the military rebates included. This is in MN, mind you--not many folks in the military here.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    Didn't see any limitation on the ad. If someone gets bored call them to confirm availability, this is large dealership group with 2 Hyundai locations here 877-857-7947 or 800 910-8045
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    I guess this goes back to your question of why people would pay more for a used car than a new one. This same dealership, Ganley, is advertising several used 2011 Sonata GLSes, stripped (plastic wheel covers), for $19,500. Yet they offer new ones for $17,995. Hard to figure why anyone would buy those used cars.

    http://autos.cleveland.com/used_cars/style/all/hyundai_sonata_2011
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    savetheland-

    Here are the YTD fleet sales vs total sales through March 2011

    Ranking is based on % of sales:

    1. Ford 167,780 fleet/495,508 total = 33%
    2. Chrysler 90,074 fleet/286,950 total = 31%
    3. GM 140,165 fleet/592,546 total = 23%
    4. Nissan 56,366 fleet/285,358 total = 20%
    5. Toyota 53,748 fleet/433,924 total = 12%

    Care to retract your statement?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    Call me a skeptic if you will, but I wouldn't believe any phone confirmation that those vehicles are available. Of course they will be available when you call. But I've seen too many stories in our dealership ratings & reviews of people who call minutes before heading to the dealership to confirm availability, and when they get there, the car has evaporated - it's either "just been sold," or "the person you talked to must have been mistaken," or some other excuse, but I know I wouldn't count on any confirmation that wasn't done with my own eyes.

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,972
    Are total fleet sales the same as sales to rental companies? I don't think so. I don't know where to get figures for auto sales versus truck/van sales to rental companies but I know that truck/full size van FLEET sales are huge. Nissan and Toyota truck sales are miniscule compared to the Big 3 and Honda doesn't have a regular regular body on frame pickup and I think that's why Honda isn't in the mix. None of the Asian makers have been marketing a full size work van in the past. I think Nissan has just shown one but I don't even know if it's for sale yet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Ford's daily rental fleet sales were up 13% in March 2011 over the previous year.

    Here is a website that reports what ALG has found at the conclusion of the 2010 MY. Yet again, Chrysler and GM are at the top of rental fleet vehicles ....

    http://www.autorentalnews.com/News/Story/2011/01/ALG-Releases-OEM-Rental-Fleet-P- enetration-Statistics.aspx
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "Are total fleet sales the same as sales to rental companies? I don't think so."

    And your thinking is correct. Fleet sales include taxis, police cars, flower delivery trucks, etc. For example, one of my kid's baseball coaches works for Red Bull and drives a company car. What does Red Bull buy as one of their loaner company cars you might ask? The Toyota Prius. Those were bought at fleet prices but they are certainly not rental cars.

    I've never seen a report on what percentage of fleet sales go to rental companies either come to think of it.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,972
    Ford's daily rental fleet sales were up 13% in March 2011 over the previous year.

    That's pretty much a snapshot in time. What would it indicate if they were down one month versus the previous year? Not a lot. Besides, haven't seen too many Prius with Uhaul printed on the side. ;)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Just reporting what information was available. It usually take s alot of digging to find exact rental fleet numbers.

    Judging by the run sheets I receive from Hertz, Enterprise and National rental car agencies, the vast majority are American cars and Chrysler has by far the most amount of cars available. Toyota and Hyundai seem to have the biggest numbers from the imports.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    edited May 2011
    I'd like to find out where those Hyundais are. The Hertz lots I go to around the USA all say the same thing: "We don't buy Hyundais anymore." Same story at Avis, although I did find a 2010 Elantra with 30k miles on it the other day in Madison, but they said "it's not ours." I think National has some Hyundais, but no idea how many. I do see LOTS of Toyotas and Nissans. I almost always get a Nissan (Versa, Sentra, Altima) when I rent a car from Hertz these days. They try to give me Toyotas sometimes (Yaris, Corolla, Matrix, Camry) but I try to switch for another car (except for the Camry) if possible.

    This is borne out in sales numbers, e.g. as of April 1, Hyundai sales to fleet accounts were down 31 percent for the year with fleet sales representing 13 percent of the total sales mix year-to-date, and 11 percent for March. Those numbers seem a lot lower than for other automakers, e.g. Nissan, as mentioned in an earlier post.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I don't know where to get figures for auto sales versus truck/van sales to rental companies but I know that truck/full size van FLEET sales are huge.
    Trust me, when you're making $100 off of each car from fleet sales, it adds up to a lot of nothing in your pocket quick. Fleet sales are the last thing you want as an auto company if you can help it. Now, someone has to buy new rentals and so on, but you certainly don't want it to be 20-30%+ of your sales. That's essentially just running the plants to keep them running at that point.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I'd like to find out where those Hyundais are

    Enterprise and Budget is where I have been seeing them. My local Budget store has a fleet of the new Elantra's available.

    I think this is how the whole conversation started. Enterprise has a boat load of 2011 Sonata GLS's they are selling at $18,000 plus....

    Starting in 2009, Hyundai/Kia Group sold a whopping 1/3 of all cars to rental fleet agencies Enterprise, National and Hertz in the first quarter. As of August 2010, Hyundai was the largest supplier to rental fleet, at 16%, of all foreign auto makers, with Nissan and Toyota following them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,697
    2009 and 2010? This is 2011, last time I checked.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,972
    Trust me, when you're making $100 off of each car from fleet sales, it adds up to a lot of nothing in your pocket quick.

    I don't believe for a minute that the car companies only make $100 off each car sold for fleet. I've heard that low of number thrown around and just don't believe it. Never have had anybody ever offer up any real proof either. That's like a dealer selling you a car for $100 over invoice and trying to get you to believe that's all they made.
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