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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    ...that one man's perfect car is one that is too soft for one, too rough for another, and awkwardly styled for another?

    Let's stop taking everything so personally. These cars are appliances. Some are more fun than others, some more comfortable, and all have varying levels of each. Get over it. If you don't like the Altima, great. If you love it, fantastic. Chances are we all know that by now.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited October 2011
    I was being sarcastic in my post, it seems nobody caught that. I just can't stand when someone comes on here and questions why people are buying a certain car. It is not nice to do and presumptuous. I don't care for the Sonata or Malibu but I don't go on to those discussion, point out the flaws or negatives about the car, and question people why they would even buy those vehicles. It is one thing to dislike a vehicle yourself, but questioning other people's buying choice is something else.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I actually don't really care as I don't have vehicles with less than 6 cyls.
  • I am not sure why the Kizashi is getting discussed here. It is NOT a midsize sedan but a compact sedan. The EPA total volume is only 105 cuft. Definitely in the middle of the compact size range.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    I'm confused now. Since you were talking about your opinion of Sonatas with the "base engine", which is an I4 (actually all it has is I4s), I had the impression you DID care about vehicles with fewer than 6 cylinders. I could see how you would think the 198 hp I4 is sluggish compared to something like a Maxima with its V6. But that's not really apples to apples.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Dodge City, KSPosts: 6,066
    edited October 2011
    I am not sure why the Kizashi is getting discussed here. It is NOT a midsize sedan but a compact sedan. The EPA total volume is only 105 cuft. Definitely in the middle of the compact size range.

    Just about the only reason the Suzuki Kizashi is being discussed in this thread is because I love the car and it is referred to by the car news media as a midsize car. You're right, it is more a compact car, though, in reality, which is another bean in the positive bucket reason why I love the car. Drove like a dream!

    Suzuki Kizashi in that delicious red...this is what I'm talkin' about...I would buy one in 6-speed standard transmission form

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Why not point out the flaws and negatives? You can't just point out the positive points and be done with it.

    I would never question why somebody buys are car, but if someone says the ride is great and I disagree I'm going to say so.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    No, I was only talking about the Sonata I4 because I had one as a rental car a few months back and comparing it to the other I4's I've had for rental cars. I've read a few reviews online commenting on its sluggish acceleration. I think I just read a C&D article saying it was 0.5 secs slower than the new Camry in 0-30.

    Now, I do have to say, some of the new turbo I4s coming out are making me reconsider my 6 cyl policy. I'm particularly interested to see the new BMW I4 next year in the 3 series.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    As you may have seen, Chevy is ditching the V6 on the 2013 Malibu. Who knows, maybe in a few years we won't see V6s in any mid-sized family cars. Or even luxury cars... the 5 Series will be getting a turbo 4 soon. The new FE regs will probably force automakers to go that route in their mass-market cars.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    I used to drive rental cars a lot in early 2000s and they all looked like $hit b/c renters like to abuse these cars so much. One of my friends likes to floor his rental cars every time he can. He even used the from quarter panel to scrape out the mud from his shoes.

    I don't think flooring a car should "hurt" it at all. With the rev limiters and engine and transmission programming cars have these days, flooring it should be harmless and idiot proof (other than if they crash).

    Now, cigarette burn marks in the interior, that's just plain abuse and neglect. As far as using the quarter panel to scrape out mud from the shoes, as long as he doesn't dent or scratch/scrape the paint, he should be fine. Enterprise likes to charge $250 phantom "dent" fees when you return a car these days.

    Last time I returned a car they pointed out a couple so-called "phantom" dents, as I didn't notice them and considered them so minor that it was frivolous. Upon return they pointed them out and we both had to look at the other side to be sure there was even a dent and it wasn't a pre-designed door panel contour. It was a Mazda 3 sedan. Main thing I noticed was the sheet metal was soda can thin compared to my Audi A3.

    So they tried to charge me $250 for a dent that would be easily missed in the pre-inspection especially since they try to hide the dents by having the car soaked in water when they give it to you. Enterprise is a corrupt company in my book; this is the 2nd time shenanigans have gone on with them, the 1st being unrelated to car damage, however.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    The new FE regs will probably force automakers to go that route in their mass-market cars.

    What happens to an automaker if they choose to ignore the FE regs?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    The best turbo 4 engine right now in my opinion is the VW/Audi 2.0T.

    I haven't driven the new Sonata Turbo or Optima Turbo yet, but when are they going to put that in the Genesis Coupe, as the Genesis 2.0T was generally panned in the media as an also-ran.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    I've been reading more and more horror stories about car rental companies doing stuff like this even after you've paid and left they will send a bill for damage they noticed after you turned the car in. I wonder how many times they have gotten paid for those same little dents without gettting them fixed?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    "I was STRICTLY talking about the Sonata/Optima exterior styling "

    So what? This is a forum where folks express their opinions. Get used to it.

    "Camry and Accord sales are based on their longevity and perception of reliability...not styling."

    Right. Now do the math. If the Sonata had "everybody loves it" styling and reliability to boot it would stand a good chance at overtaking one of those perennial sales leaders. I'm telling you it should be selling better if the styling is everything you think it's cracked up to be. It's been rated well on reliability so what's missing?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    That was my biggest problem. I figured they could have attempted to charge the last 10 customers for the same dent. The $250 charge is a supposed "hold/deposit" for actual damages. If it comes out to say, 180.00, they will send you back $70.00.

    But just because they get an estimate, if even that, it doesn't prove they repaired the damage and incurred actual claimable losses.

    They at least did me the courtesy of telling me their were dents on the car right after returning it; while I was still there. They then checked their computer, and said checking the last 10 rentals there was only a note about a dent on the right side, none about the one on the left side; so that's the one they attempted to charge me for.

    When arguing with my credit card company on a chargeback (because the Enterprise Manager could not accept he might have been wrong and missed the damage on the initial inspection), I pointed out that there was no proof they fixed the dent in order to make a claim against me, and furthermore, I argued the damaged didn't happen while the car was in my possession (I only had the car for like 9 hours; 3 of which were spent driving it). So the chances he was right were like 1%, and the chances I'm right is like 99%. I couldn't justify paying them with those odds.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    I'm telling you it should be selling better if the styling is everything you think it's cracked up to be. It's been rated well on reliability so what's missing?

    It is missing long term reliability ratings. It is missing a historic reputation for quality that holds true for decades, not months.

    Honda and Toyota OWN in that regard.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It's not a "perception" of reliability they are reliable. Given a percentage or two of lemons that befall every manufacturer Camcords will go the distance.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    edited October 2011
    So what? This is a forum where folks express their opinions. Get used to it

    Really? Didn't know that.. Thanks for the tip. Please note sarcasm.

    Did I say that opinions weren't allowed? I was simply stating that Sonata and Optima sales have jumped tremendously and I believe it was mainly due to their new styling which most people and auto reviewers like. You think the Sonata is ugly and the interior of the Optima offends you. That's fine and that's your opinion but I doubt their huge sales increases were based on their reliability or drivetrains perception. Like I said, I don't own these and have no plans to but do give them credit for what they've been doing lately and the huge sales increases(percentages) they've enjoyed of late.

    Never said anything about "everybody loves it". Don't know why you put that in quotations as I never said it. Please don't put words into my post so to speak. Will they overtake the "perennial sales leaders"? Hardly, they are still way behind in overall sales and it would take years to match them. And the leaders are not standing still. Toyota seems to have improved the interior a lot which should help sales and the exterior IMO is a little better as well. To say they should overtake the leaders just because they have nice styling would be silly.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,864
    What happens to an automaker if they choose to ignore the FE regs?

    They pay fines.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,125
    That hardly seems fair, since there is already a gas guzzler tax on the consumer. I suppose with the way fines are levied in traffic courts nationwide, the word FINE in the dictionary could be replaced with the word TAX on motorists.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,864
    I don't disagree, but the gas guzzler tax is on an individual vehicle. The CAFE requirements are for groups of vehicles.

    And the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is what they want to spend OUR money on.........
  • I agree the new Camry is far from ground-breaking material. Sure it will sell, Toyota still has a large base of customers and huge dealer network. It's really time for Toyota to shake things up like Hyundai/Kia have done.


    On another note I was interviewed by the NYTimes (through an referral) and they published my quotes on a 2011 Lacrosse that I just bought new in September. Edmunds kicked in a free t-shirt and several post cards. ;)

    Another guy they interviewed bought an Optima EX Turbo. The article can be read here: NYTimes Automobiles
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    edited November 2011
    Some things the new Camry has going for it are improved FE and a very attractive hybrid package in the LE. Also of course Toyota's long reputation for reliability, and improvements in base power and in interior quality (based on reviews). That is likely more than enough to hold market share, maybe pick some up vs. the likes of Ford, Honda, and Nissan with their relatively old mid-sized offerings. Plus there's a lot of people I think who prefer their cars in Vanilla flavor vs. Tuti-Fruiti. :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    Interesting article. Didn't want to wait for E-assist huh? That sounds promising. Something that bothers me is when you compare the LaCrosse, Regal and Verano with the 2.4L they all get +/- 1mpg of each other. You would think there would be several mpg difference at least between the LaCrosse and the Verano. I can't figure it.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Posts: 574
    edited November 2011
    Had to pay $6K more for a 2012 with eAssist. Mine is a CX with the Comfort and Convenience package ($900) and 18" alloys/Michelin Pilot rubber off a Regal that wasn't even on the sticker ($23,600 out-the-door).

    The mileage figures are puzzling. My Lacrosse weighs 3800lbs, the Regal 3600lbs, and the Verano 3500lbs. Same engine is each and very close EPA numbers.

    I've been averaging 25mpg in my Lacrosse running 87 octane, no ethanol fuel. 30mpg on the hwy is achieveable but not at 75mph like I drive on the Interstate. It's in town mileage where I beat the rated 19mpg easily. 21mpg city is not a problem and 29mpg hwy has been typical. Very happy with this car. :blush:
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    I guess the weight isn't all that much different between them so with the same drivetrain it makes some sense. May have something to do with aerodynamics too.....not just weight. I just always expected when you went from a full size car to a compact car you would get some good mpg improvement. good for you though. :D

    Nothing but ethanol around the Chicagoland area so I imagine the Lacrosses numbers would be a little less here although I am usually at or better on my three vehicles versus the EPA estimates even with the ethonol.
  • m6user: The 10% ethanol fuel hurts my mileage too. In the past I ran it and lost 1 or 2mpg versus 100% gasoline.


    I was committed to buying a domestic make this time. My prior new car purchases include: Honda, Audi, Chrysler, and Ford. This is my first new GM product.

    Pertinent to this discussion, I also test drove a 2011 Chevrolet Malibu LT and 2011 Ford Fusion SE. Both of these cars drove well with the edge going to the Malibu for road feel and handling. The Fusion looked better to my eyes. Both need am all-new 2013 model asap. It was clear these two designs were 5 years old.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    edited November 2011
    Been reading a couple reviews of the new Camry Hybrid and noticed some things that seem interesting. One of which:

    Camry Hybrid 0-60 time = 7.2 secs
    Sonata 8.2 secs, Sonata Turbo 6.7 secs
    Also, I believe the Jetta TDI is around 8.5 secs or something like that.
    (numbers were taken from a couple of different sources so they may not match up with every single review out there)

    That's only 1/2 second slower to 60 than a Sonata Turbo. Sounds pretty good for a hybrid that will average about 40mpg per gal on reg unleaded day in day out.

    Now I realized that 0-60 times are not what turns on most midsize buyers but many, myself included, like a little pep on occassion. I use those times mostly for relative comparison. I just assumed hybrids were really pokey but these numbers are kind of eye opening. The only hybrid I've driven is an older Prius and didn't like much about the drive at all. But based on what I've been reading about the new Camry Hybrid, I may have to test drive it.

    It's rated at about 43cty/39hwy and with diesel prices at about a 60 cent premium right now in the Chicago area it seems to be enticing. I know a couple of others on here have mentioned it as a potential value in the midsize class and from what I've read I would have to agree.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    It helps to compare performance numbers from the same source, as each mag seems to have its own methodology. For example, InsideLine says the Camry Hybrid (rated at 200 total hp) will do 0-60 in 7.6 secs. They also said the 2011 Sonata GLS (198 hp) came in at 7.7 secs in their tests (w/o rollout). That seems reasonable given the cars are about the same size (I would guess the hybrid is a little heavier than the Sonata) and power rating. InsideLine also got 6.6 secs 0-60 on the Sonata 2.0T. Others have reported as low as 5.8 secs. (Those road-burners would probably get a better number in the Camry hybrid too.)

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,132
    Yeah, I did a quick google search compare just to get an approximate idea but as you've pointed out the spread can be somewhat substantial between testers. A couple of the times were from the same mag, Motor Trend I believe, and the other I think was Edmunds. All in all though my point was that the Camry Hybrid was quicker than I would have thought and is comparable to the normally aspirated offerings in the midsize class. Stopping distance witth regenerative brakes were pretty close to the others as well.
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