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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    That's the beauty of electric motors - instant torque. There is no delay waiting for RPM to build up to get usable torque.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    Yes, I'm sure that is helping greatly as the hybrid does weigh a little more because of the battery. It seems Toyota and others are starting to chip away at my resistance when it comes to hybrids. They increased the trunk size on the Camry by a couple of cubes which at least puts it close the size of the other midsizers, 13' something I think. They've made the brakes so they aren't so funky. Tire tech is coming around so that you don't feel like you're riding on steel rims when you get the low rolling resistance tires. Don't know if I'm ready yet but they are getting closer to the look, feel and performance of regular sedans which is pretty good IMO.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Anyone who has ever driven an electiric golf cart compared to a gasoline golf cart, knows the the instant torque is much greater in the electric version.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I hear great things are in store for the 2013 Fusion hybrid, which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.

    What do you mean it(Fusion Hybrid) is so far ahead? It costs thousands more than the 2012 Camry Hybrid and the 2011 Sonata Hybrid. It gets substantially less MPG than the Camry and around the same overall as the Sonata. I don't call that "far ahead" at all. Maybe the new one will be but the current one...No.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    In what ways is the Fusion hybrid "far ahead" of the 2012 Camry hybrid?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    The Camry only gets 2 mpg more than the Fusion - I wouldn't call that "substantially less". However, the 2010-2011 Camry did get "substantially less" MPG than the 2010-2011 FFH (5+).

    The Fusion has a 2 year head start. The 2013 Fusion will leapfrog the Camry next year and Ford will be ahead again. And the C-Max should also give the Prius a run for its money on the smaller lower end.
  • dchevdchev Posts: 38
    Your statement is called a speculation. Nobody knows how good the gas millage of next Ford Fusion Hybrid will be.
    If they manage to get better gas millage, well, it would be great for all customers, but right now we do not have any information.
    It is great that Toyota was able to imrove the gas millage of Camry Hybrid by 9 MPG. I believe that Camry Hybrid is the best Camry among all different Camry models.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    It's not just speculation - it's information from insiders that say the new FFH will make a big jump in fuel economy with Ford's generation III hybrid system. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    2 more mpg is better...right? Thousands less in price is better....right?

    I'm talking about the 2012 Camry. Let's compare what is available right now as that is what I was talking about. When the new Fusion Hybrid gets here than we can compare but right now the current Fusion Hybrid is behind. And I think Toyota has a lot longer successful history with hybrid tech than Ford has via the Prius if I'm not mistaken.

    If the Ford leapfrogs the Camry in the future I will readily admit it as I have no vested interest other than for discussion sake. You seem to have a hard time dealing with the here and now. Fusion Hybrid WAS better than the Camry Hybrid but the Camry has in your words leapfrogged the Fusion. Just accept for it for now.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I don't have a hard time accepting anything. All I said was the new Fusion should be even better than the current one and should put Ford back in the lead as far as MPG goes. You're the one that started doing comparisons and got all bent out of shape about it. I don't care either way and I don't have anything against the Camry hybrid. I'm just excited about the new technology.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Using that logic the next version Camry should leapfrog the Ford, and so it goes.
  • Yes, and it's called "improving the breed". This goes beyond hybrids, and even the cars themselves.

    Who benefits? We the consumers do!

    They can "leapfrog" themselves all they want. It's the buyers than benefit in the end.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Looks to me like Toyota will be playing catchup for the next several years. Guess we'll find out in 2012.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Well Fords playing catchup now, so I guess it will be Toyota's turn.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    All I said was the new Fusion should be even better than the current one and should put Ford back in the lead as far as MPG goes

    No, that is not all you said. You said "which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is." You didn't explain how the currrent Fusion is so far ahead already(which it isn't) and just went on about the rumors you've heard about the future Fusion Hybrid. It appeared that you were failing to recognise the advances in mpg and the lower pricing of the Camry and still thought the current Fusion was ahead. That prompted my comment. I"m sorry if I offended you, it wasn't meant to.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Let's just wait until the 2013 Fusion arrives and we can revisit the issue.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    Just announced that the new Passat has won Motor Trend Car of the Year. Clean and simple design won out. Congrats to VW.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The thunderbird also won car of the year.... :shades
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    Hindsight is always 20-20. :D
  • godeacsgodeacs Posts: 481
    Now let's see VW's reliability get up to speed!
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,251
    OK, I'll bite. What's amazing about it? My take is that while the grill & front end are improvements over the outgoing design, the side is just as boring as ever and the rear is ho-hum.

    Toyota's "booth babes" can't even wear snazzy outfits (style, not sexiness) as they'd outshine the product.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,913
    Nothing to see here... that was run-of-the-mill spam.

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I know C/D liked the V6 Passat, but that is so... "old-fashioned" these days where more automakers are going the I4 route. And the diesel is interesting for this class. But the mainstream offering that most people will buy with the 170 hp I5 is outclassed in power and FE by almost every other mid-sizer out there, and the styling is so... Impala-ish...

    Sorry, I dozed off there.

    I think it's a sign that the 2012 crop of cars that qualify for MT's criteria isn't too remarkable. And they couldn't do something like make the new Camry COTY because they did that a few years ago and they like to move the award around, from what I've seen.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,251
    I had figured as much based on the wording but thought it might be interesting to see what comments it stirred up. :)
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    edited November 2011
    I think it's a sign that the 2012 crop of cars that qualify for MT's criteria isn't too remarkable. And they couldn't do something like make the new Camry COTY because they did that a few years ago and they like to move the award around, from what I've seen.

    Or, it could mean that, just like the Civic, critics were looking at getting more out of the redesign of the Camry than what was delivered. It seems to me that, according to M/T, VW made the extra effort to make their car a world-class midsize sedan, something that Toyota and Honda just can't seem to do anymore.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Most likely it means that VW had a better marketing plan for the award than anyone else (which means they were willing to spend more money advertising the award which provides free advertising for Motor Trend).

    According to Pete DeLorenzo (autoextremist.com) that is how it works. And he interacted with MT while working for GM.

    Why else would the mfr be REQUIRED to submit a marketing plan before the winner is selected?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    edited November 2011
    What specifically is "world-class" about the new Passat? The only thing I see as unique in this class, in the USA, is availability of a diesel. They have the worst standard powertrain in the class. Styling is... pedestrian (I am being kind). Interior is maybe the nicest feature of the car, but not above the new Camry, Optima, or Sonata IMO. It has a nice smooth ride... but so do other cars in this class. It's roomy in back.. but so are some other mid-sizers. Nothing technologically stands out--the diesel is old hat for VW.

    Yes... what is "world class" about the new Passat?
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,050
    I don't disagree that the new Passat is not world class...then again which midsize family sedan could be labeled that right now. You don't like the new styling but that is just an opinion. Many, including myself, think the new Passat is very good looking in a clean and classic, sort of Audilike way that will stand the test of time. It's styled much like the new Jetta which is selling very good and I don't believe it's just because of the lower entry price but is due in part to the styling. The 5cyl does 22/31 mpg which is competitive with several of the current midsize cars like the Altima, Mazda6 and Fusion and has good torque so it's not a bad drivetrain it's just older. If you've sat in all the cars you mentioned the Passat still has the nicest interior. It wasn't cheapened like the Jetta was. I just sat in a new Camry and while the interior has been greatly improved it still isn't as luxurious as the Passat's. The Sonata and Optima interiors may look nice but the quality of the materials is not quite as good IMO.

    Personally, I think the Mazda3 Skyactive would have been a better choice for COTY but I don't think it met the deadlines.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Mazda3 Skyactiv has a new powertrain and some little tweaks. That's it. The 2012 Focus OTOH is an all-new design compared to 2011 and could easily claim to have set The Benchmark for the compact class. Much more of a "significant" vehicle in these times when buyers are gravitating to smaller, more fuel efficient cars. And MT claims that their COTY rewards the "most significant" car. There's even the new electric Focus for 2012.

    Passat was one of the few new models for 2012 in the mid-sized class. All it had to beat there was the Camry. But not the most significant car overall for 2012 IMO. I'd even pick the Impreza over the Passat--AWD plus fuel efficiency for the first time. That's more significant than a nice mid-sized sedan with styling cues from Audi... and a ten-year-old Chevy. And a nice interior and a smooth ride, but an anemic base powertrain. Nice package. But COTY?
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