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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,689
    Fords transmission issues are not durability related. They seem to be engineering/manufacturing or software issues.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    cski: I doubt this is true....

    "The engine will have to work so hard that after 5 years it will have problems."

    I don't have a link, but I read an article in Auto News or maybe Wards Auto about a year ago about the engineering of Ford's Ecoboost engines. Ford's engine engineers know that these motors will have added strains placed on them, and they've designed them and built them accordingly. In other words, they've strengthened and made more tough and durable a lot of parts in them. That's why these Ecoboost engines cost more, because they cost Ford more to build.

    In the long run—at closer to maybe 12 years and 150,000+ miles—I think you are right that some of these engines might have problems, and they are likely to be quite expensive to fix. But Ford is definitely trying to build them to go way, way past 5 years without problems. Ford's engine warranty, like most other makers at this point, is for 5 years and 60,000 miles. No way are they going to build engines that are likely to need to be repaired under warranty. And the PR nightmare of engines conking out a few years out of warranty is not something they will accept either.

    I think Ford may be showing us a large part of the automotive future with small turbo engines in larger vehicles.

    Here's one of Ford's "torture test" videos for the Ecoboost on a truck.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epkCVPH1iRY

    The problem is not heavy use. These engines are built to take hard use. The problem with turbos with direct injection seems to be if people just do short stop and go city trips without some full power hwy miles to blow out the build up. There's a chance that driving it like that might eventually give you gunk build up that could lead to problems, but supposedly they've even taken that into account to some degree.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    it's an issue if any of those keep you off the road or opening your wallet prematurely

    My opinion on the capability of a properly turbo'd 1.6 gas in mid-sized vehicles is that if the engine has been built with sturdiness capable of the extra torque available (crank, rods, bearings, lube and cooling capacities, etc etc) then there is no reason they shouldn't last as long as a larger displacement NA engine. I don't know if they do the extras needed to help ensure this with the general public knowledge/ignorance as the real-world testers, but things like turbo bearing lubing/cooling features after the engine has shut down providing those necessities by the engines oil pump and coolant system, are crucial or there will be unexpected expense later on down the road.

    I also think that due to the huge advancements made in lubrication and metallurgy over the years, has helped enable the potential use of these smaller engines in heavier vehicles.

    As for lack of power under 2000 RPM, I doubt that will be an issue with the ECO 1.6 since it will be tuned to exploit its strengths at the lower revs..something turbos do by nature. Just as an example, the 1.4 Cruze turbo makes peak torque of apprx 145 ft lbs..forget exact figure, at about 1700 rpm I think it is. This, on a 3400 lb car give or take. In driving one, the torque is evident enough, you do not feel that the car is under-powered. Or most wouldn't, maybe I should say.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    My problem with the Ford Fusion doesn't have to do with any of the engines. The engines are probably all fine (although if the base 2.5 now is anything like the 2.5 found in the rental Fusion I had a few years ago, it will be loud and unrefined compared to an Accord).

    My main problem with the Fusion is this from Automobile magazine:

    "...With its high beltline and steeply raked windshield and backlight, the Fusion can’t come close to matching the outward visibility of the new Honda Accord, but few can. Thick A-pillars and two-piece C-pillars compromise the driver’s view somewhat..."

    Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1209_2013_ford_fusion_first_drive/#i- - - - - - - - - xzz27EJhrkPn

    I would go beyond "few can" and say that no competing midsize car can match the Accord's best-in-class visibility.

    Rather than the bunker-like closed-in feel of many other midsize cars, the Accord is open and airy, and has great visibility. And you can roll your rear windows down almost all the way in an Accord. Try that in a Fusion, Altima, Sonata, Passat, etc.

    And yet the Accord also has best-in-class safety with the ACE II body structure.

    As some have said, you can just adjust and use your mirrors more carefully in these cars to help make up for the poor visibility. Fair enough.

    The styling on the Ford Fusion looks great, and Ford's Ecoboost engines are excellent. I understand that for many the car is a very good choice....
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    edited September 2012
    I saw the 2013 Accord up close today at my local Honda dealer. Styling is a huge improvement (although when I first saw the rear end I wondered to myself why there was a new Genesis parked outside the front door). I like the dash treatment much better than on the previous generation also. Rear seat leg room was OK, but toe space was kind of tight. Much more room in the old Accord, and in cars like the Passat and even the Jetta.

    But the greatest thing about the Accord is the starting price: a bit over $23k for the well equipped LX with CVT that includes sharp-looking alloys, backup camera, Bluetooth, Pandora, auto headlamps, and all the basic power features. Consider that's less than $1000 more than a Sonata GLS with alloys, and that doesn't have a backup camera. Plus the LX can be had with a 6MT (in only two colors, however :mad: ) for less bucks than the Sonata. I think Honda will sell tons of LXes.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    backy: Yeah, that's one of the surprises about this Accord—it has more standard features than any other non-premium midsize car. But I think you're the first to show that the 2013 Accord LX has an even lower price than a Sonata GLS when comparably equipped. Wow. Honda dealers are gonna sell a lot of them just on that basis alone.

    And I think in the next couple of months the IIHS will release its video of the small offset crash tests of midsize sedans. My guess is that the Accord is going to come through pretty well on that, because Honda designed it to help passengers survive that kind of crash. I don't think the other manufacturers have done that yet, but we'll soon see.... Anyway, if that turns out the way some people are guessing it might, it could give the Accord a significant advantage in safety for a year or two.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Well, I didn't say that the Accord LX has a lower price than the Sonata. I said that it's less than $1000 more than a comparable Sonata GLS. The Accord LX has some features at that price that the Sonata doesn't have, e.g. backup camera, but the Sonata has some features the Accord doesn't such as power driver's seat and heated seats.

    The Accord LX with a stick is about the same price as the Sonata GLS with automatic. But I expect Honda will make very few of those 6MTs. The Sonata used to be offered with a 6MT but as of 2013 that's been dropped--just not very popular in mid-sized family cars.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    Sorry about that. I guess I read your post too fast and missed a word. But the prices are pretty close....

    2013 Sonata GLS w/alloys, etc.= 22495
    2013 Accord LX w/ cvt= 23270

    Giving us a difference of 775. Not much at all. And there are some things you get on the Accord, like dual climate control, back up camera, pandora, etc. that I don't think that Sonata has, although as you said the Sonata has heated cloth seats (!?).

    Here are some other comparisons.

    2013 Fusion 1.6 auto: 25,290

    That's obviously 2k more than the Accord. I think this is the engine that's comparable in performance and mpg to the Honda earth dreams DI engine. And the Accord still beats the Fusion for equipment in a lot of areas.

    2013 Passat w/alloys+ auto: 23,270. That's basically identical to the Accord, but the Passat has an old tech engine that gets only so so mpg and is said to be less refined.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    edited September 2012
    One area where the Passat has the Accord beat hands-down is in rear seat space. Also VW seems to be pushing the Passat with sweet lease deals. Saw one today for a Passat S automatic with Appearance Package for $199/month, 0 down. Accord leases are much higher, despite strong resale values. If I were in the market for a mid-sized car, I'd be tempted by that Passat deal even with the lower-tech engine. Passat has been top-rated by some car mags. Will be interesting to see if the Accord can knock it off that perch. I expect it will... unless the Fusion does.

    Ford will need to ante up some incentives to sell the Fusion that's $2k more than the Accord, $3k more than something like an Optima. And the Altima is no slouch either.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    That is a nice lease deal on the Passat. They are definitely blowing the 2012s out the door to make way for the 2013s....

    In terms rear leg room, the 2013 Accord and Passat are pretty close in terms of numbers, at least according to Edmunds.com

    Accord Passat
    Rear leg room
    38.5 in. 39.1 in

    So there's a about half an inch difference there, but maybe the seat design on the Passat let's you put your toes underneath the seat more? Don't know.

    But anyway, both seem pretty good on this measure, and quite a lot roomier than a Sonata, which I think has about 35 inches of rear leg room.

    My bitter experience experience with a Jetta from long, long ago has lead me to write off the VW brand forever, I think, although I'm sure that today's VWs are much, much better. I'm actually quite happy with VWs success with their factory in TN.

    The 2013 Accord CVT gets 5 more mpg than a 2013 Passat auto (30 combined mpg for Accord vs. 25 mpg for the Passat). That's about a $400-$500 a year difference in what you're going to pay for gas for these two cars. I think in about a year the lease differences between these two cars will get closer, but no doubt there will still be a gap.

    I may be biased, but right now it looks to me like the 2013 Accord is the top of the midsize class overall, and if you want the best you can expect to pay just a little bit more....
  • ...Styling is a huge improvement (although when I first saw the rear end I wondered to myself why there was a new Genesis parked outside the front door).

    I think may be it's just me because no one else mentions this. I don't need to go to see a optometrist after all. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    I've found you can't go by just the numbers on leg room, they can be very misleading re rear seat comfort. Best way to test that is to go sit in the car with the driver's seat adjusted as it will be for the main driver(s). That's how I always test rear seat room. And by that test, the Passat is simply cavernous compared to the Accord. Also the toe space was tight on the Accord (that's for the EX-L with two power seats, maybe it's better with non-power front seats). Even the smaller Jetta has lots more usable leg room by my testing. Actually, even the subcompact Versa hatchback is much roomier than the Accord in back, at least for leg room. But the Versa hatch is roomier in that regard than most mid-sized cars... it's an anomaly.

    A big factor in usable rear leg room is how the driver's seat adjusts. If it can go forward and high, and still provide good thigh support, then that opens up the rear seat more. That may be why rear seats appear similar "by the numbers" but in reality are much different. That's one reason the Versa, for example, has so much rear leg room.

    Re gas, that's more important for some people than me, as I only put about 7,500 miles a year on my car (as my wife does on her car). So that's only about $200 a year at $4 a gallon. That would be made up for within about 4 months of car payments, comparing 2012 Passat S to 2012 Accord LX leases in my area. Also consider the Passat has 3 years of free maintenance, so you save a few bucks there.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    I believe you re the Passat and legroom. It looks like it has huge amounts of legroom. I guess that's one place where the Passat wins against the Accord. And the free maintenance too. Plus the low payments.

    There are some good choices in midsize cars, and I'd say the Passat is one of the better ones. How is the visibility from the driver's seat? It looks ok from the outside, but I'm guessing that from the inside it's only so so. Those small rear windows are questionable functionally. Or, at least the one immediately in back of the driver usually is.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    I haven't driven the Passat but the windows look plenty big to me, and the C pillar isn't that big. I do like the fact the Accord has a backup camera standard. But I think those have to be standard in general pretty soon, don't they?

    185 hp on the Accord LX with the 6MT would be pretty lively, I bet. Plus if it's like typical Honda sticks it will be fun to drive. Finding one of those could be tough, though.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    If your really want an Accord manual you could probably order one. I did that for my 2008 Accord EXL navi manual in white. There basically wasn't a single one in the country in Oct. of 2007 when I went into the dealer, and so he took a deposit, they built it in Ohio, and by early Jan. I was driving the car. I haven't regretted that at all.

    But through dealer trades you should be able to get, say, a manual EX, Sport, or LX....

    Yeah, the Passat looks good from the outside in terms of visibility, but inside the little window right behind the driver is just not usable. Yes, you can adjust your mirror, etc. But I just prefer better visibility...
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    According to Motor Trend:

    2013 Ford Fusion SE
    1.6L turbo I-4 and 6M with 178 hp and 184 lb-ft
    0-60 mph: 8.0 seconds
    Quarter Mile: 16.1 seconds at 88.1 mph

    Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/by-the-numbers-2008-2013-ford-fusion-and-2002-ford-tau- - rus-265285.html#ixzz27QPb3H4j

    2013 Accord Sport 6MT
    0-60: 6.8 sec
    Quarter Mile: 15.3 sec @ 92.3 mph

    Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_honda_accord_first_test/vie- - wall.html#ixzz27QVPn4za
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    For the record, the Accord has 189 hp and 181 ft-lbs of torque. Not sure about relative weights, but I'll bet the Accord has the advantage there also.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,689
    The Fusion gets better mpg though - 25/37 vs. 24/34.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    True...But, for the autos (probably c. 97% of these cars) the 2013 Accord tops the Fusion in mpg and (I think) in acceleration....

    "The Fusion's most efficient engine — the 1.6-liter, turbocharged four-cylinder — is rated at 25/37/29 mpg city/highway/combined with a manual transmission and at 23/36/26 mpg with an automatic. Most Fusions will be sold with automatics."

    The manual Accords are rated 24/34/28, which is a 1 mpg difference in combined mpg. To me 1 mpg is not much, but 1.2 seconds faster acceleration to 60 is significant.

    The 2013 Fusion 1.6 auto is rated 26 combined. The 2013 Fusion 2.5 auto is also rated 26 combined.

    The 2013 Accord 2.4 auto is rated 30 combined.

    That's probably about $300-$400 a year. And so it's not a lot, but it's something....
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited September 2012
    In top line trim, a Fusion Titantium 2.0 turbo gets from 0-60 in 6.8 seconds. Surprising, but a 4 cylinder Accord Sport manual is equal to that acceleration (but is otherwise much less lavishly optioned) for about $12,000 less.

    The Fusion Titanium that Motor Trend tested priced out at $37,670.

    The new top-of-the-line Touring 6 cylinder Accord lists for $34,220.

    A 2013 Accord 3.5 V-6 coupe 6 mt goes 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, which is seriously fast.

    Inside Line says that the 6 cylinder auto sedan gets to 60 in 6.1 seconds.

    http://www.insideline.com/honda/accord/2013/2013-honda-accord-ex-l-v6-vs-2013-ni- - ssan-altima-3-5-sl-track-test.html
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,263
    Those are realistic numbers, and indicative of the entire mid-size sedan 4 cyl performance range.

    The Fusion has indeed matched or bettered every car in it's segment with a significantly smaller, turbocharged engine; therefore improving fuel economy while doing it.

    I am just defending the naturally aspirated 2.4 liter, 200hp and 186lb-ft engine in my car. I believe that this is the correct engine for it's application. (24/35 mpg).

    The turbocharged, SX version of my car was too expensive for my needs. (274HP, 22/34 mpg).

    I would not buy the 2.5 or the 1.6 liter Fusion. If I was going to pay for a turbo on my insurance then I want ALL of the benefits. Namely strong, powerful performance and reasonable fuel economy figures. The 2.0 liter choice felt right when I drove it and on paper.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,689
    27 city and 30 combined is pretty impressive. CVTs are fuel efficient for sure.

    But the Fusion Hybrid gets 47/47/47. I don't think Accord can touch that even with a CVT.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    Yeah, if you want a hybrid the Ford Fusion seems to be on top at this point. I'm a Honda fan, but if the competition can beat you then I say so be it. At this point it looks like Ford has the best hybrid 4 door sedan on the market. Hats off to them! And even the regular gas models are fairly close in terms of price. I still think the Honda Accord is the best-in-class, but the Fusion is giving them a run for their money...
  • akumaakuma Posts: 70
    well, the C-Max also supposedly gets 47 combined mpg as well, but Inside Line could only get 33 mpg over 393 miles. i'm not sure if they spent many of those miles flogging a boxy hybrid, but those numbers seem underwhelming like the Sonata hybrid (nowhere near 40 in real life, although the guys at cleanmpg seem to get close to 60 mpg somehow).

    also TTAC (thetruthaboutcars) was able to get mid 40s mpg from the plug-in Accord hybrid which is estimated to get 100mpge (like the Fusion Energi) when driven in purely electric mode, so i think that the regular Accord hybrid might get similar if not better real world fuel economy than the Fusion hybrid.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,689
    If they only got mid-30s in a car rated at 47/47 then something is seriously wrong.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Why the surprise? These car mags often get mid-20s in cars rated upper 30s to 40 mpg. They flog their test cars. Unless they are specifically driving for high FE, their FE usually sucks. So getting mid-30s on a car rated 47 isn't abnormal.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,689
    I wasn't questioning the report - I already read it. I'm saying there had to be something wrong with the Cmax they tested which was obviously a pre-production model.
  • ctlctl Posts: 123
    I hope some Altima owners can comment about the CVT. Seems like Nissan recommend CVT service for every 30K miles (see sources quote 100K miles too), and each would cost around $300 (oil plus labor). Is that true?

    I would think Honda's CVT would probably be the same story. If so, the extra savings from MPG advantage of a CVT wouldn't sound so appealing anymore? this is disregarding whether one prefer CVT or not, or whether CVT is as durable as conventional auto -> pure cost consideration.
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