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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    What surprises me the most is Kia out-selling Ford, GM, Chrysler, and VW. People must be catching onto the fact that the Optima is a fine choice in the mid-sized field, also very reasonably priced - nicely equipped for under $20k real world pricing.

    Also interesting: Hyundai/Kia together nearly beating sales of the Camry!

    I think once the new Accord catches on it will overtake the Camry. At least it should if there is any justice; Camry pales in comparison to the new Accord in so many ways. Toyota needs to be sent a message: mediocre isn't good enough any more.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The Accord and Camry have been close in the race Camry wins for years, so current sales figures are not unusual. The Altima has been doing much better in the past few years. Interesting to see that the Optima outsells the Fusion right now. And for VW to make such inroads after years of basically being a non-plyer in this segment is remarkable.
  • podpod Posts: 176
    I think people who are interested in a Fusion are delaying purchase until the 2013 models are widely available. The pictures of the pretty faced new model have been around for months and people like the AM-like snout. It is a new model and many will wait for the newest model. The present 2012 Fusion is a lame duck in their eyes. To others, the present 2012 Fusion may be a very good deal when Ford applies promotions to move the residual stock of the 2012s. Some may prefer the 2012 to the 2013 (I would) based on the "never buy the first model year" axiom. I find the styling of the new Fusion to be awkward (small tapered snout, BIG side view, high back). I prefer the new grille to the old razor blade type but the grille is not an item I would base purchase on. I wish Ford well and expect the new Fusions will sell well. I think they let the cat out of the bag a bit early in that some folks have been salivating for the new model for 6 months now. That has to hurt sales of the present model at least until there are lots of 2013s for people to see in person and make their final decision. Now they are in limbo.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,959
    edited November 2012
    This forum is about MID-SIZED SEDANS so you may have more people to argue with on the appropriate forums for the cars you listed. And if you "pledge to speak the truth....", you might try with the right price on the ILX. The 2.4L starts at $29,200...not $25k. ;)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,959
    Not surprising as they were dealing(blowing out) the 2012 model Accords and the 2013s started to sell with great reviews from the auto press. I think tons of people are/were holding out for the new Fusion which isn't reflected at all and will probably be a huge seller.

    As far as Sonata/Optima almost as many sales as Camry, I'd be more interested in a YTD number as one month can be a very incomplete picture. There may have been a large rental fleet buy, may have been a lot of incentives for some reason, new model introductions, sale prices by dealers, etc. Any number of things can greatly influence a monthly sales number so, though somewhat interesting, not all that meaningful.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I'm surprised the Altima's sales weren't a little higher, but oh well. I really like the new one, but I would never get the I4. The whale of the CVT and engine was just so ridiculous it wasn't even funny. I couldn't live with it. The V6 on the other hand, was much quieter, and the CVT drone was not that noticeable. If your in the market for the Altima get the V6. Still gets good gas mileage and you won't have to deal with that loud I4-CVT drone.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,287
    October is a tough month to judge by. You have the model years switching (leftovers selling next to '13s), and as you note, some of them are coming out with a redesign, and often that leads to a temporary shortage. The 4th quarter as a whole should give a lot better picture.

    I do have to say that the mid size (though IMO some of these have breached the barrier into full size!) category has a ton of strong choices. I am not planning to ever be looking in the class again though, so hopefully it trickles down to the C class too.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Speaking of Altima sales and whether fleet buys influence sales numbers... I was in my local Nissan dealership today and had a long talk with a very nice sales rep. One of the things he mentioned was that Nissan has sold 300,000 2013 Altimas to Enterprise. Not sure over what time span the deliveries will be, but that's got to help bump up the Altima numbers.

    But the sales rep also said sales of the new Altima had been strong, held down by lack of V6 cars. He said early adopters tend to go for the high-end trims and low-end trims, so they were selling a lot of V6s right now. I sat in it and it looks like a fine entry to me--tons better look/feel wise than the Camry. Rear leg room was more than I expected based on some reviews. I didn't drive one because I am not in the market for that big of a car right now, but did drive the new Sentra--review elsewhere.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,287
    you must have an extra zero in there. They aren't going to sell 300K total, and no way Enterprise can absorb that many!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,669
    New Fusions are only trickling in while most of the 2012s are already gone. It's a simple supply problem. The 2013 should be back to #3 shortly and may give the top 2 a run for their money when Flat Rock comes online. Fusion is currently production constrained in Hermosillo - they can only make about 300K vehicles per year including exports to South and Latin America and the MKZ and MKZ hybrid.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    edited November 2012
    Then the sales rep had the extra zero. He said 300,000--twice.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Maybe as production of the new Fusion ramps up they'll address the quality control issues mentioned in early reviews.

    With production held to 300,000 a year, the Fusion will never catch the likes of the Camry, Accord, Altima, or even the Sonata/Optima cousins in sales volume.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,959
    That's what you get for believing a sales person no matter how nice they are. 300k is probably what they will sell totally with Enterprise being just a small portion of that. They have only sold 258k ytd. Maybe they will sell 300,000 to Enterprise over the next twenty years, LOL.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,193
    edited November 2012
    Why does the Optima have zero plus or minus figures? The current style has been around for 2 models years....but the Optima has been sold since 2000!

    What happened to the sales figures? No offense, but I am into stuff like this, especially on a car that I own! (12 Optima EX). They had to add hours to their shifts in the West Point Georgia assembly plant to keep up with demand. The are other plants producing various versions including turbo-diesel and several small petrol engines not offered in North America.

    Thanks! -Chris
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Actually, your hypothesis about Fusion sales is not correct. The 2012 Fusion sold better this year than it ever has since introduction. It has not been viewed by buyers as the lame duck it is. The 2013 is available now, but Ford hasn't gotten the pipeline completely full yet with Fusions equipped the way people will want them. Part of that is making sure that the new model's production and distribution are going smoothly before turning the tap on all the way.

    BTW, for the last 20 years, I have often bought the first model year of a redesign and have never regretted it. Cars are and have to be good out of the gate these days. If you look at recalls, they are just as likely to happen on models that have been out a few years. Buy what you like when you are ready to buy.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    That's probably it... a multi-year deal. Or an extra zero. ;)

    But it should be noted that Toyota, Ford, GM, Chrysler, and to some extent Hyundai/Kia also get significant sales volume for mid-sizers from rental fleets. I see lots of Camrys, Fusions (not new ones yet), Malibus, and Avengers/200s at Hertz for example.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,193
    You hit the nail on the head. For example, Ford Truck's are #1 in sales because of dirt cheap volume deals to the US (and other) governments.

    Usually the D.O.T. (dept of trans) buys these vehicles by the trainload in order to maintain and repair our roads. Also they are used for snow removal, search and rescue, forestry services and....the US military built to spec.

    Most states already have the infrastructure to maintain a certain brand of vehicle...so changing over to chevy or dodge would be mega expensive.

    Just fyi.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,193
    edited November 2012
    I agree, actually. I am afraid that my 12 year old will never learn to drive a car w/o electronic/computer nannies.

    WHen I was taught to drive (in 1986) it was on a 72 Pinto with a 4 speed manual. It had power NOTHING. I was taught how to drive the car...not how the car drove me! The interior was swathed in "Rich Corinthian Vinyl" LOL.
    (The Pinto was sold in 1984 to buy the very first production Dodge Caravan, in silver, no pass side mirror, no tape deck, no tinted glass. Just an automatic trans and a 4 banger. The A/C was great though.
    Today almost all cars are vastly superior than most cars were in the 1970's or '80's, but I still think a kid should be taught to drive a stick. I am 42, so please excuse my dementia!
  • I like the looks of the Fusion, but quality concerns as of late and a particularly high sticker price for the equipment level I'd want leave me cold. I'll likely drive one soon enough, but the Ford dealer wasn't in the area where I was that particular afternoon.

    What is this I hear about a "quality" problem with Ford of late? What is up with that? After doing so well for years their quality is falling? What do you guys attribute that to? Is it gibberish? Is it real?

    I find it all hard ta believe. Fill me in. What is the cause of it and it is really real?

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Grab a copy of the latest CR and read about their automaker reliability ratings. Ford's slide is documented there. And see also comments re the new Fusion's quality issues in the recent MT comparo (or could have been C/D, both had recent mid-sizer comparos).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    edited November 2012
    I'm headin' to our local Hasting's Book Store tonight and grabbing me a copy and reading up on it. I've only noticed one article on it and it wasn't definitive what was causing the problems. Mexican workers? Foreign workers? European?

    Jealousy over Alan Mulally's earnings? When Alan Mulally was my boss at The Boeing Company's Everett Division, we would gossip about his boss-i-ness. But he was the boss. I mean, 'Where's the beef'?

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,287
    you have to look at the details. I believe it primarily had to do with the DSG (so just focus?) and the mytouch nonsense.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Just read C/D's review of the Fusion Hybrid. Less quick than the old one, but averaged 32 mpg. I thought that sounded pretty good until I read CR's review of the Altima 2.5. They averaged 31 mpg and 44 mpg on the highway... and that car starts around $22k, thousands less than the Fusion.

    Of course, maybe CR would get higher FE on the Fusion Hybrid than C/D did. But it's pretty amazing what can be achieved now with regular ICE powertrains on mid-sized cars... numbers that would look good even on a compact car. Will be interesting to see how the new Accord does in CR's tests. Too bad they didn't test it alongside the Altima.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me. As did their new Elantra.

    I also don't think we would see that CR's Altima 2.5 with such impressive numbers if the car was loaded to..say...half to two thirds capacity, the way many of these cars will actually be going down the highway. That 44 (or 31 avg FTM) would be basically impossible for any length of time and simply not achievable in hilly country. I even wonder if it is truly representative of its potential if the A/C was on during entire review.

    I am no Hybrid fan, beyond mere speculative curiosity due to my perception of real world longevity costs down the road long after wty, but I think in my example above, a hybrid or even the newer turbos tuned for economy, have the ability to more closely get the higher avg in real world use.

    I feel the same way if you were to compare a regularly heavy footed driver in a CVT vs a conventional 6 speed auto. That type of driver will get higher mpg with the 6 speed.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 393
    Considering how c/d got 19 mpg in their recent test of the Altima ( in their comparision test) you can see how they tend to drive cars, so the 32 for the fusion hybrid is impressive, CR will almost definately get better results in their testing, so you will have to wait until they test it to get a true picture of the comparision ( I believe CR tries to duplicate the tests with every car they test, while C/D may not).
    In any case the Altima CR results look good, but the ones from C/D don't so that should tell you not to compare the two mags economy results.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me.

    If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited November 2012
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    But in real-world driving, this results in an undriveable car, so most people do what comes naturally. They give it more gas to not be a hazard or die of boredom hyper-milling along like a 90 year old man. The most incredible example of this was the original Prius, which was completely silly and had to be altered downwards. (this was before the EPA changed the ratings as well).

    GM andFord are also famous for this, but because they almost always use 6 cylinder engines in their vehicles, they can get away with the car being geared wrong since there's enough torque to still be driveable without flogging it or having to down-shift constantly.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited November 2012
    I see tons of Sonatas, Camrys, Altimas, Malibus, and Fusions at the rental car dealerships. The only one I've seen few of and hard to find at the Rental companies are the Accord and Passat. Not, that you can't find them, but not in the abundance of the other 5.

    If I was getting a mid-size sedan tomorrow, it would either be the Altima, Accord, or Passat.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Those would be good choices for sure. But none of them, other than perhaps the 200, Avenger and Galant would be inferior choices.

    I like the Passat best for room, quiet, handling and restrained but tasteful styling. But I wouldn't be unhappy to drive the new Accord (previous version looks kind of dowdy to me), or the Altima or even the Malibu. The new Fusion comes with that often-used Ford technique of styling a car to actually appear smaller than it is. Some people might like that. I don't, just as I thought it was silly way back with the 1996 Taurus, which was bigger but struck Tom and Ray on Car Talk at the time as looking smaller than the 1995. I digress.

    I'd buy the Fusion Hybrid in a heartbeat if I needed a new vehicle. However, unless I crash, I won't be needing one for awhile. I still think the Optima looks awesome, while the Sonata is not to my taste. Very competitive market, and some have to lose out, even if they are good cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Hertz for one has Passats. I got one the other day in Phoenix, an SE. Nice ride. One of the few good things about business travel these days is getting to check out different cars.

    Accords are pretty scarce on rental although I've seen them at Hertz and other places before. Hertz used to have a lot of Sonatas but not lately, from what I've seen. Other rental companies may have them. I don't see many Optimas at all--and I'd like to rent one of those sometime.

    I'd likely favor the Altima 2.5S, Accord LX if looking for a mid-sized car right now--best blend of fuel economy, ride/handling, interior room, and interior/exterior style out there for the money, IMO. I'd also look at the Optima LX. However, local VW dealers sometimes offer a 0 down lease on the Passat for around $200, and that could be hard to passat-up... er, pass up.
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